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3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 7:03:36 AM   
fbastos


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As of 8:55 PM PST of May-14-2005... 3 people reading the GGWAW forum, and 36 people reading the WiP forum.

I don't want to make any parallels that focusing Mike Wood's invaluable time in "that" game is similar to sending Raizo Tanaka to conquer the Himalayas...

... but the reader might make that comparison himself/herself.

F.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 8:18:16 AM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

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Hey, Mike Wood better be using his time fixin' all the new bugs in the UV 2.41 patch....

All seven of us that still play UV deserve to be his top priority!
(it was a really bad patch)

Chad

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 4:28:28 PM   
Grotius


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Well, there are some of us who play both games and read both forums. I'm very much looking forward to the next GGWaW patch.

GGWaW is deeper than it looks from the graphics, which didn't thrill me at first glance. The game does some things *better* than WITP: it models rolling stock and railroad capacity and integrity, it allows you to move supply overland manually, and it has no map edge; what you do in the ETO affects what you do in the PTO and vice-versa. And you can play a PBEM in a couple weeks. I have two WaW PBEMs going right now, having already finished two PBEMs earlier.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 4:42:15 PM   
Halsey

 

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Beer and pretzels! Or, beer and donuts.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 4:58:04 PM   
Terminus


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Or any beverage and snack food of your choice!

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 5:01:58 PM   
U2


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I have also noticed how few people seem to visit the GGWAW forum compared to here (this is an old game!)

I bet Matrix/2by3 thought there would be higher interest in the GGWAW title. I thought so too, shame....

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 5:05:52 PM   
Terminus


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I think perhaps some people get turned off by the screenshots. I know I did; that, and budget constraints

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 5:39:25 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


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Ive got the game and i like it , but you cant compare it to Witp , totally differant beast and quite good fun , also challenging vs the AI untill you know what to do , even then it has merit

Dont let the graphics put u off !

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 5:42:52 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Dont let the graphics put u off !



I usually don't; it was more of a money thing (damn you, Real Life!!!!!)

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 6:33:34 PM   
moses

 

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A lot of the reason may be that WITP is so complicated that people go to the forums for help and then get hooked into the discussions. Then because you have so many people here the forum reaches a critical mass where it really takes off and becomes interesting for people. Ask a question and get a response in 5 minutes.

Those who bought GGWAW are probably just playing. Its not as complicated so you don't need the forums as much. A less massive program so fewer bugs so no need to report or argue. Also with GGWAW you just accept that it is not 100 % accurate in all ways but with WITP every bullit must be modeled correctly. So with GGWAW there just may not be as great a need for people to visit the forums and this is compounded by the fact that with only 3 people viewing its jsut not as fun anyway.

< Message edited by moses -- 5/15/2005 6:35:44 PM >

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 6:35:52 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

A lot of the reason may be that WITP is so complicated that people go to the forums for help and then get hooked into the discussions. Then because you have so many people here the forum reaches a critical mass where it really takes off and becomes interesting for people. Ask a question and get a response in 5 minutes.



That's true. I spend a lot of time on the forum, and have a lot of fun doing it.


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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 6:36:55 PM   
moses

 

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See I hadn't finished my editing and already a response. In 2 minutes and 18 seconds I was already quoted!!

< Message edited by moses -- 5/15/2005 6:38:07 PM >

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 8:15:54 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Few people?! GGWAW is fastest growing forum on Matrix boards at the moment and I guess Matrix and 2by3 are pleased with that game's success so far. Just compare with some other Matrixgames and their forums.

I love both games (WAW and WITP), and post on both forums, but I think Grotius said it best when he said WAW actually gives more enjoyment per time unit or something to that effect Given how fun and enjoyable, yet deep, WAW is, I'd expect more of WITP people to at least peek there, not just to make fun of "low volume traffic" like fbastos

Lets not forget one thing, and that is we here on WITP forum are not average gamers, not even average wargamers, or average grognards. We're totally crazy bunch, scribomaniacs, guys with no life, and crazy even by very crazy grognard's standards.

I guess what I am trying to say is WITP guys would out-post WAW dudes by 3:1 even if WAW out-sold WITP 10:1 So don't use WITP board or your average WITP guy as measure of anything. We're "off the map", outta scale, you know what I mean.

Also I think Mike didn't do anything on WAW, he's working on WITP/WIR, but don't take my word as "official" in any way shape or form. So WAW didn't "steal" Mike from you guys

O.


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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 8:51:58 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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I've had GGWAW since it came out and still can't get into it. I spend most of my time in WitP and with 2 PBEM games-scenario 13,15 I'll have my hands full. I will say that in terms of the combat animations GGWAW is pretty pathetic. Matrix should take a page out of Talonsoft/take2 and look at what they did with Gettysburg. I just got it for $19.00 yesterday. I never heard of it and there isn't much on it, but I have to say I'm impressed. The 3D graphics and turn based play is well done.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 9:49:29 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Talonsoft's Gettysburg? That was released when? 10 years ago? There's a reason why you don't hear much about it anymore, it's old news. Don't get me wrong, I loved the game (okay, still love it, though I haven't played it in a very long time), but it's too old to be discussed much now. If you enjoy it, they had a whole series of games using that engine: Shiloh, Antietam, Bull Run and Chickamauga were the ACW titles, there was also Waterloo, Prelude to Waterloo and Borodino for the Napoleonoc fans. You ought to look for copies of those as well if you're enjoying Gettysburg.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 10:17:24 PM   
Bodhi


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Getting off topic, but I think the Gettysburg title refered to is this one: http://www.catdaddygames.com/gettysburg.html

Anyone have any more info on this? How does it compare to MadMinutes Bull Run?

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 10:22:18 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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No a new version was just released. The game engine is entirely different. Its still turn based, has large hexes and you can zoom in/out as well as pan the camera. The terrain and troops are done in 3D and it looks pretty damm good. The campaign game is nothing more than a bunch of scenarios you play out so its not the best. There is a skirmish mode though. For $19 its a good deal and fun.

If they made a ww2 version of this it would be the Squad Leader on your PC that so far nobody has successfully made.

Yes I remember the original Gettysburg and Napoleonoc games from Talonsoft. The new Gettysburg is an entirely different beast.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 10:28:44 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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ding, ding, ding we have a winner. Yes this is the Gettysburg I'm talking about. I haven't played too much yet, but compared to Mad Minutes Bull Run, I would say Bull Run has a better campaign game as you don't just play out a series of scenarios. The graphics in Gettysburg is nicer though and it's fun. I'm not too sure how good the AI is yet. I've been able to win, but I haven't played too much so I can't say for sure at the moment which is a better AI opponent-Bull Run/Gettysburg.

IMHO Gettysburg demonstrates that you can have nice 3D graphics that would make turn based strategy games more appealing.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 10:49:21 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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My mistake, I just saw his comment about "What Talonsoft/Take2 did with Gettysburg." WITP has taken up all my wargaming time, so I had no idea that this was something different.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/15/2005 11:02:44 PM   
Bodhi


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Easy to miss this game, very little info seems to be available on it. All I can find out is that it seems to be from a team involved with the History Channels Civil War game.

Getting back to this thread, I think the main criterion used by Matrix/2by3 to decide where they put their limited resources is how many copies of a game are sold, not how many people visit the forums. The number of votes in the "curious cat" thread doesn't bode well for the future of WitP. If only WitP was more popular I'm sure we'd have a full team working on it, rather than a percentage of Mike Wood's time.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 5:54:23 AM   
Joel Billings


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Just to clear up some things:

1) Oleg's statement about Mike Wood not working on GGWaW is correct. His time has this year been going into War in the Pacific, War in the East (our Eastern Front game) and last I heard War Plan Orange (although this is supposed to take very little of his time).

2) GGWaW has in fact already outsold WitP to end users, but that should be no surprise to anyone. There are some good points listed above as to why the forum totals are what they are.

3) The reality of GGWaW vs WitP as far as future support goes has much more to do with the status and complexity of the code base as it does the sales of the game. Yes, it's always easier to justify doing work on games that are selling more, but that's only a part of the picture. WitP, as many critics and lovers of the game have pointed out (sometimes the same person is both), is very complex spaghetti code. In some ways I'm amazed that it works as well as it does. Any work on it has a greater chance of creating new bugs than it does of fixing the original bug. As we can't afford to have programmers work on it full-time forever, the more time that goes by the harder it is for the programmers to remember what they were doing in the code (making it even riskier to do work). Now if all Mike was doing was fixing bugs, it would be tough enough, but as you've probably noticed there are always a million new features that people want. And Mike has responded with a sizable number of new features. There are also endless arguments about things that some insist must be changed due to unhistorical results. Some fine points, but also many that are impossible to get just right (even if you all could agree on what that is, which this forum often can't). I have been arguing for some time that additional WitP work should focus entirely on bug fixes until any remaining major bugs are corrected (of course that day may never come). As for AI work, forget about it. The AI is as good as it's going to be. Gary couldn't improve it now without devoting many months of his time, and even if he did, it would only get marginally better (or it might get worse).
In comparison, GGWaW was written with more modern coding methods and is much easier to work with. Also, as mentioned, the game is simpler and given that the scope of the game is so much smaller (27 turns versus 1500), any work on the game including even the AI is much more manageable and productive.

4) Mr. Frag is compiling information and saves for some of the critical problems with WitP 1.50. Hopefully we can fix these problems, but it's too soon for me to say anything about what can be done. We'd certainly like to fix the major problems and get the game to be as stable and bug free as possible given the realities in item 3 above.

5) WitP is one of a kind. We think it qualifies as one of the 10 wargaming wonders of the world, bugs and all. We think it provides tremendous play value for anyone interested in this topic and level of detail. It may be harsh (and not something any sane marketing department would ever admit), but if it had to be anything close to bug free, it would never have seen the light of day. Also, I think the activity on the WitP forum is fantastic, although there's so much of it that I can't see how you guys keep up with it.

6) I'm surprised to hear a WitP grognard complaining about the poor combat animations in GGWaW. Not that we don't agree that the combat animations in GGWaW deserve some criticism, it's just that I wouldn't think that someone that plays WitP would put an emphasis on this. In GGWaW we saw the combat animations as something that would be used by a beginner to learn the flow of the battles, but would then be quickly turned off as something that slows the game down for no long term purpose (it doesn't give you any information you can't get in the combat report screen). Our art budget didn't allow us to put more effort into this part of the game that we thought was just to be used the first game. Of course, it just shows how important first impressions are, and how important graphics and a graphic payoffs from a battle well fought can be. We can appreciate the desire for more eye-candy, but we did the best we could with what he had to work with. In the end, once you play the game, we think most people will be happy to turn off the animations and won't miss having what would truly be just eye-candy.

7) In the next few months we'll be looking into various options for WitP support going forward.


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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 6:46:29 AM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Beer and pretzels! Or, beer and donuts.


....and seasonal turns

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 7:12:43 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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I looked at a friends copy of WaW. The supply rules make it too complex for the casual gamer, its too hookie without the supply rules for anyone, and it isnt realistic enough for the die hard. The casual gamer is better off with Axis and Allies (which of course is what WaW is based on, look at the map ), and I would personally prefer a combined version of WiR (War in Russia) with some fan-boy tweeks of course.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 7:17:43 AM   
Grotius


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Joel, thanks for a thoughtful post. Glad to hear GGWaW is doing well. It deserves its success -- not to mention its quite favorable reviews in the mainstream gaming press.

I really don't think of GGWaW as beer-and-pretzels, and I've played everything from the ultra-grognardy "Advanced Squad Leader" (in tournament play, no less) to the beer-and-prezels "Strategic Command." I find WaW far more deep and satisfying than "Strategic Command" (a game I enjoyed) or "Clash of Steel" or "High Command" or even "Advanced Third Reich." HOI2, while nice, doesn't come close to GGWaW IMHO. The naval and air combat alone distinguishes WaW from the crowd. The supply system, transportation infrastructure, production, research -- these things make for a deceptively complex game.

I can't wait to see what 2by3 does with the American Civil War using this engine. I'm betting it will be the first Civil War computer game that really holds my attention.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 7:21:34 AM   
Grotius


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quote:

The casual gamer is better off with Axis and Allies (which of course is what WaW is based on, look at the map

I respectfully disagree. One of my PBEM opponents is a longtime player of Axis & Allies. (My current PBEM "ally" hasn't even played that.) GGWaW is this guy's first step into the wider world of wargaming, and he's loving it -- even if he's in over his head. The supply system has indeed been a challenge for him, but he's got the wargaming bug now, and there's no going back.

FWIW, the "casual gamer" can play with simple supply if they wish. Both casual gamers I know were quite happy to move on to advanced supply.

This game has nothing to do with Axis and Allies. It's a whole higher level of gaming.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 1:26:00 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
...Lets not forget one thing, and that is we here on WITP forum are not average gamers, not even average wargamers, or average grognards. We're totally crazy bunch, scribomaniacs, guys with no life, and crazy even by very crazy grognard's standards...
Truer words have never been spoken.


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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 1:58:06 PM   
pry


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I don't know if this is going to come across the way it is intended but I'll give it a shot...

I purchased WAW out of dare I say it "Blind Loyalty" to 2by3 and Matrix, Even though I have yet to really get into the game because after this monster I find the scale somewhat confining but I can and do see the "Fun Game" value of WAW. They deserve a commercial success with WAW and I did my part out of my limited disposable funds to help achieve that as a way of thanking them for War in the Pacific...

Having spent enormous amounts of my personal time over the last 2 years deeply involved with WitP, first helping bring WitP to life then making it even better post release I have deeper attachments to this game than most folks here and I strongly urge everyone to do their part and support 2by3/Matrix by purchasing WAW, even if you don't play it by making WAW a commercial success it allows the decision to put additional resources into WitP much easier in the future. We all want to see WitP improved and the success of WAW is one way to help make that happen.



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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 7:47:33 PM   
Banquet

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


WitP is one of a kind. We think it qualifies as one of the 10 wargaming wonders of the world, bugs and all.


I think you're rating it too low!

Completely agree with Pry's comments as well.. although if everybody buys WaW, will Matrix take that to mean they should concentrate more on that type of game, and distance themselves more from the detail heavy type, like WitP? I hope not..

Anyway, I'm glad to hear WaW has outsold WitP.. the more success 2by3 and Matrix get the better for all of us.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/16/2005 8:35:26 PM   
scout1


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quote:

War in the East (our Eastern Front game)


Joel,

Not going to have a copyright problem with this are you ? Same name as the SPI classic.
Just wondering.

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RE: 3 vs. 36 - 5/17/2005 3:34:38 AM   
fbastos


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quote:

Having spent enormous amounts of my personal time over the last 2 years deeply involved with WitP, first helping bring WitP to life then making it even better post release I have deeper attachments to this game than most folks here and I strongly urge everyone to do their part and support 2by3/Matrix by purchasing WAW, even if you don't play it by making WAW a commercial success it allows the decision to put additional resources into WitP much easier in the future. We all want to see WitP improved and the success of WAW is one way to help make that happen.


That's a great point.

Can't ask for a promise from 2by3, of course, but if 2by3 would make an opening for continued improvement of WiTP conditional to the success of GG:WaW, then I would not only buy it myself but also network to help make it an even greater success.

After all, we can hardly convince anyone to invest their time in WiTP, but us bunch of fanatics can certainly influence a lot of peeps to go for something simpler - to everybody's benefit.

F.


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