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Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 2:54:46 PM   
HercMighty


Posts: 407
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: Minnesota, USA
Status: offline 		I bought the game and am happy with my purchase so far, but the price for 3 scenarios seems a little steep. Seems in the other versions you got more for your money.

I don't know, thoughts?
Post #: 1
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 3:09:32 PM   
JSS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HercMighty

I bought the game and am happy with my purchase so far, but the price for 3 scenarios seems a little steep. Seems in the other versions you got more for your money.

I don't know, thoughts?


Uhmm, thought this question was asked pre-release.... rather than 3 scenarios of one campaign, you're getting 3 complete medium-large sized campaigns...

(in reply to HercMighty)
Post #: 2
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 3:14:42 PM   
HercMighty


Posts: 407
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: Minnesota, USA
Status: offline 		I didn't follow much of the pre-release talk, didn't really matter I knew I would get it and I did.

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Post #: 3
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 3:24:55 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		The price is the same as Battles In Normandy and as the previous poster pointed out, you actually get three campaigns instead of one and they're larger campaigns than previous ones in the series to boot. While I may not be unbiased, I think this is the most bang for the buck of any game in the series.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to HercMighty)
Post #: 4
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 4:07:42 PM   
HercMighty


Posts: 407
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: Minnesota, USA
Status: offline 		I'll have to play them out, I didn't get to get to deep into them yet, that's what this weekend is for.

Also I think BII has a higher resolution than BIN, how much work would it take to move BIN scenarios over to BII?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 5
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 4:36:45 PM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		No, I think its fair for 3 campaigns.

The engine has proven itself well with Normandy and has legs. This title with so many challenges to overcome in making terrain playable and keeping an educational story going over a theatre with many pauses in between major movements will be a litmus.

I like the way HPS give's $10USD off at launch but this title is the equal of their regular rrp's.

(in reply to HercMighty)
Post #: 6
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 6:19:21 PM   
Owen


Posts: 19
Joined: 2/17/2004
Status: offline 		Are there no smaller scenarios in BiI?

I'm not really fond of mammoth scenarios in wargames. It may sound like wargamer heresy but I find it boring in the extreme to manually plot moves for hundreds or thousands of unit counters each turn.

I much prefer to play smaller more mobile scenarios that have something of a chess like feel to them.

I've been out of the wargaming loop for awhile but I remember well that most operational level games I used to play would have a big campaign or two and then a bunch of smaller scenarios that were often simply smaller segments of the big battles.

Is there nothing like this in BiI? Just 3 fairly large scale battles?

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 7
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 7:26:48 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		Owen,

Have you tried the other games in the series? There aren't thousands of pieces to keep track of, it's actually quite manageable. From your description, I think you would enjoy the Husky (Sicily) campaign which has the feel you described, at least to me.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 8
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 7:58:17 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
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From: England
Status: offline 		Looks like SSG is going down the lines of HPS. Same game different theatre full price.

The expansion pack looks dead as far as wargames go.

Is this due to on thewhole small sales compared to major games so its away of getting more money back from the product?

Im not complianing as it does make sense. Us wargamers will always pay out in the end if they love a system.



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Post #: 9
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 8:10:37 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
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Status: offline 		Wodin,

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
Is this due to on thewhole small sales compared to major games so its away of getting more money back from the product?
Im not complianing as it does make sense. Us wargamers will always pay out in the end if they love a system.


Wargaming has always been and remains a niche market for gamers who want a little mental exercise in their gaming and some historical accuracy, so for the most part titles don't sell at mainstream levels. A title that takes a development team 9-12 months of full time work to research, create, code, test and balance is not going to be possible to release as an expansion pack. Ultimately what determines whether something is an expansion pack from the publisher's and developer's viewpoint is largely how much time and effort was required to create it.

SSG's games are recognized for their excellent AI, tight gameplay, stability and excellent scenarios - all of these take time and make a new release a major proposition. Many changes that end up seamless from the customer's perspective are actually a tremendous amount of work behind the scenes, particularly to make them fit so well in the existing system.

With that said, SSG have Across the Dnepr - an expansion pack for Korsun Pocket (we also have the upcoming War Plan Orange expansion for 2by3's War in the Pacific) and I wouldn't rule out other expansion packs in the future, but Battles In Italy is most definitely a full game, with as much or more gameplay IMHO as Battles In Normandy.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 10
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 8:28:47 PM   
benpark

 

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Status: offline 		I am a huge fan of this series, so I bought it. It's pretty expensive, but I realize there are all kinds of costs built into the small company, small developer equation.

One thing that I would like to see done is, for a smaller fee once every new game is out, is to retrofit the previous versions with the new features. It would keep the old ones fresh, and really draw those on the fence to the series.

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Post #: 11
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 9:03:58 PM   
jhdeerslayer


Posts: 1194
Joined: 5/25/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Like Eric says guys, we're in a very low volume, niche market like true wargaming always has been and always will be. Basic economics apply. I am always willing to pay for what I really want to cover my hunger for this type of product. Go try and get a traditional board wargame these days. Now that is sticker shock as their volume has got to be even much lower then PC niche wargames.

I will go contribute my overpriced $50 now...

OT slightly:

If you think $50 is high, go pick up Salvo! from Shrapnel Games for $40. That is one example of a demo scaring me away. I think that is possibly the worst game for $40 I have seen in some time. Funny as I might have bit but the demo convinced me otherwise. A case of a demo hurting sales and not the first time it saved me money.

Now a real bargain is MadMinute Game's Bull Run for $20. I suspect they won't charge so little next time for such a good product....

< Message edited by Deerslayer -- 5/25/2005 11:16:05 PM >

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 12
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/25/2005 9:11:28 PM   
HercMighty


Posts: 407
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quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark
One thing that I would like to see done is, for a smaller fee once every new game is out, is to retrofit the previous versions with the new features. It would keep the old ones fresh, and really draw those on the fence to the series.


This is what Panther Games will do with HTTR. I too would gladly pay to have at least Korsun scenarios upgraded. BIN is pretty close to BII that I would do it, but I have a real hard time going back to Korsun just because of the changes that have been made. I play on a LCD with a native resolution of 1600*1200 so Korsun looks really horrid. Besides the interface changes and things like Incidental Data would be a great upgrade to Korsun and BIN.

Maybe someday if we keep asking they will give in.

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 13
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 1:10:42 AM   
Adam Parker


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From: Melbourne Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Looks like SSG is going down the lines of HPS. Same game different theatre full price. The expansion pack looks dead as far as wargames go.


Wodin that is such a disappointing approach to this game and our hobby and in fact, it surprises me that you still bring it up after the huge debate during the release of Battles In Normandy.

There is simply no logic to arguing this tact. When Trivial Pursuit releases with a new board and cards or card alone, prices are basically par. Each ASL module likewise - forget we paid $80 for the rules alone!

Now, if you argue that digital download should provide savings over physical distribution you're onto something. But even now, Matrix has shown that point to be moot. Not every Matrix title releases at $50USD - and physical options are more expensive. No, I'm now happy with this model.

When will people get over this "expansion pack" mentality? Show me how BiI even closely follows the feel and interface of KP. Which brings me to Benpark's statement:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Benpark

One thing that I would like to see done is, for a smaller fee once every new game is out, is to retrofit the previous versions with the new features. It would keep the old ones fresh, and really draw those on the fence to the series.


Yes, agree. However, if the programming need is vast, I'd pay for it. Yet, like the Tiller series, I hope one day that SSG's DB series may easily and regularly be retrofit. That would add the value that a premium price demands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HercMighty

I have a real hard time going back to Korsun just because of the changes that have been made.


Yep, totally agree.

Adam.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 14
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 3:42:14 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
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Status: offline 		My .02 cents: I paid $59 for BiN at release and at $49 BiI is a great, even better deal. All three separate maps/campaigns are IMHO a much better value than BiN which was all the same just broken down in chunks. I only ever play the large scenarios, Free Landing and Rommel's Plan being my favorites, the Italy maps each have their own gameplay and even though i have only played for a number of hours (as Allies only...so far) i am really pleased with how much Battles In Italy has to offer. I admit i was skeptical but it was well worth it...for me.

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Post #: 15
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 4:41:20 AM   
AlvinS

 

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Status: offline 		I own and very much enjoy BIN, so I have no problem with $49 for BII. I will buy this one for the weekend.

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Post #: 16
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 5:15:47 AM   
Adam Parker


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From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

I paid $59 for BiN at release and at $49 BiI is a great, even better deal.


Top point HP. With exchange rates I think I paid about the same for BiI as BiN. But in US dollars, it looks like SSG has heard the market.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol
I only ever play the large scenarios...


Yup at this scale that's where campaigns shine

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)
Post #: 17
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 8:46:45 AM   
aysi

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/5/2004
Status: offline 		I think this is a great system,i will pick it up after i get through Tin soldiers JC,well worth the money for the amount of gaming time i get

hey Alvin want a game after you clean me up in Flash point Germany

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 18
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 2:27:08 PM   
Motomouse

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		While i like to keep my money in my pocket and my decicision to buy Battles in Normandy was delayed due to the price tag, I still think BIN and BII offer an excellent value.

I was reluctant to go for BIN because it was a little difficult for me to get into Korsun Pocket. But I am glad I did, because i get a much better grasp on the tasks to achieve there and really learned to appreciate the game system. I admire the massive replayability I found in Battles in Normandy and after a few turns into Operation Husky in Battles in Italy I can already imagine a wealth of tactical variations I would like to explore in the near future.

There are some more features in the Decisive Battles Series that add to my gaming experience: the outstanding, high quality maps (compare them to other operational scale games, I prefer this not tile oriented design approach and appreciate the lavish details), the wealth of information available through the on screen graphics, although some is buried in the popup windows, where it took me some time to find it in the first place. And last but not least I recently started to get into play by email which adds a further gaming dimension for me, while i enjoy the excellent ai.

Furthermore I am happy with the decision to publish the games through matrix games, cause there are very little oppertunities in my place of the world to get interesting retail offerings in the niche market of conflict simulation games.

regards
ralph


(in reply to aysi)
Post #: 19
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 3:19:04 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
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From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline 		Once again this issue surprises me. Go to any game store. BII is in line with every other game on the shelf; price wise-and a better value. I am not rich, but I did not flinch at paying for WITP because I know Matrix gives us quality. They deserve our money if for no other reason than all those long years of providing SPWAW for free. This is not a communist country. The market rules. AMEN.

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(in reply to HercMighty)
Post #: 20
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 5:04:22 PM   
Arckon

 

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quote:

Once again this issue surprises me.


Couldn't agree Parusski with you more I have no hesitation in parting with my money for such quality games, everything from game play, to on screen info, to graphical look of the series shines.

Plus for those of you that have not yet tried the user made scenarios, they offer excellent quality and difference in theatre.
EG: Pacific Theatre for BIN: Luzon, MacArthur Master of Battles,
European Theatre for BIN: Rommel Master of Battles, Kursk, Patton Master of Battles.
Alternative Theatre for BIN: Crimea 1854

Would be extremely surprised if did not get similar quality with BII in terms of user made, though to be fair these are done by enthusiasts in there own time so no guarantees, but again would be extremely surprised if you didn't.

While other Companys do produce quality turned based wargaming products, this series really does have absolute overall quality plus, in my opinion.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 21
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 6:12:47 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Adam,

I cant recall the BiN debate. However BiN was a total engine change from KP whereas BiI is more of an enhancement of the BiN engine. So its not really the same issue.

Im not moaning or anything, I dont think it is very expensive to be honest and if I loved the system I'd pay out no problem.

I was just thinking about expansion packs etc. I really cant see my comment being at "disapointing to the game or the hobby in anyway.

Hey I pay out full whack for every new SB game and there is no real upgarde to the system in anyway.

I might even buy BiI as it covers a theatre that you dont see to often in wargames.

One thing I'd love to see in this game is simialr to what HPS do. Show the total casualties in manpower and vehicles rather. Adds to the immersion and gives a sense of the size of the conflict.

Finally I never started this thread I was replying to HercMighty.

< Message edited by wodin -- 5/26/2005 8:34:45 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 11:26:28 PM   
Kipper


Posts: 272
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		I would pay $100+ each for these games. It would work out at a few cents an hour for the enormous pleasure I get from them. And this BIT looks amazing, more like 3 games than 1.

Also I think SSG have posted some fantastic scenarios for free on their website... Husky, Luzon, Pacific Island Campaign, El Alamein, scenario variants etc. It's gaming heaven.

And no SSG are not going down the HPS route - sorry to sound harsh, but they were never on it at any stage as the HPS games essentially have no AI and are human play only. An important point if you are a greying person like me with sporadic opportunities for a wargaming fix (though I have the odd PBEM).

Just my 2c.

Kipper

PS Why are the best wargame makers - SSG and Panther IMHO - Australian. It has been something that has been on my mind this last while.

< Message edited by Kipper -- 5/27/2005 12:47:25 AM >

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 23
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/26/2005 11:52:12 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Yeah I agree with you. I'd pay well over the odds for COmbat Leader whne it gets released as I know I will love the game.

However I need to say this. The AI in HPS games is sound in the smaller the sccenarios ad good in SB.

Also the new AI in The first Bltiz is supposed to really shine.

John Tiller has learnt alot whilst working for the Military with regards to AI routines. HPS willl have credible AI's in the furutre Im sure.

Also I was talking about releasing the same game more or less but covering a different theatre similar to what HPS do. Nothing about the AI.

Finally the enhancements we see from BiN to BiI are what you might expect in an expansion rather than a full price game. HOWEVER due to the wargaming market and low sales then its only right that games come out full priced.



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Post #: 24
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/27/2005 12:01:28 AM   
Adam Parker


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I was just thinking about expansion packs etc. I really cant see my comment being at "disapointing to the game or the hobby in anyway...


Wodin you're definitely entitled to that opinion but I wonder if in the 60's when Stalingrad and DDay came out whether somebody bemoaned them as expansion packs? Same look counters, rules and board - just a different setting.

The whole concept of "expansion packing" in our hobby is imo just nonesense unless we are indeed talking about purposeful modules for existing systems. The Sims packs for example, Tropico Paradise Island...

In the case of DB or PzC though, we are talking complete games (ie: per multi-scenario release - not ATD). A core engine, modified with the progress of time but with plenty of work in scenario research, map design, playtesting and art.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kipper

I would pay $100+ each for these games.


Who let this guy in?

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 25
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/27/2005 12:59:26 AM   
Kipper


Posts: 272
Joined: 3/5/2005
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quote:


Who let this guy in?


Ops! Didn't think this was a closed shop forum! Back to lurking for me!

Enjoy the games!

Kipper

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 26
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/27/2005 1:28:25 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline 		Arckon you are are totaly correct about other gaming company's. More often than not I have paid my $40 or $50 for a game and found it to be boring, buggy and lame. Matrix has a big chunk of my retirement money because of all the games I have bought. But I will retire a happy man with all those re-playable games.

I think Matrix does a better job than any other company when it comes to patches and support.

GOOD JOB GUYS.

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Post #: 27
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/27/2005 10:00:45 PM   
Zap


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Status: offline 		Kipper, he was joking don't take offense. Adam, I'm sure will tell you that yes, you can post here anytime. There are light hearted spifs on occasion nothing that should keep you just lurking. I caught his joke. He was simply saying don't give Matrix any ideas.

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Post #: 28
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/27/2005 10:02:57 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Too late..

Kipper, yes, please don't take things seriously around here.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 29
RE: Price a little steep? - 5/27/2005 11:04:49 PM   
Hartford688

 

Posts: 261
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From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Status: offline 		[Deleted]

< Message edited by Hartford688 -- 5/27/2005 11:09:26 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 30
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