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Guys ... it lasts long - 5/20/2005 7:26:54 PM

nukkxx5058

Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
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Hello guys,

I remember 6 years ago (not sure exactly if it was 6, 5 or 7 ...) I was very excited to see that matrix is going to develop a grand-strategy napoleonic game. The pleasure was total !
3 or 4 years later, I read that the project collapsed for obscur rights reasons. At this time, I was delighted to read that "the wars od napo" turned into a computer version of "EIA" ! I'm still delighted that the game will be faithfull to the original board game (with dices thrown etc.). But guys, it starts to be a little bit long ... no ? I'm a matrixgames faithfull custommer and i purchased lot of games from you. I love the turn-base system.

I know there is a kind of doctrine here saying that "it will be ready when it will be ready" or something like that. But you know, 6 years is very long comparing to human life average duration ! and all that for a computer game ? so why don't you release an inperfect game (ie. with some bugs) that you will continuously improve with patches ? (like paradox does with EU games).

Well, there's no agressivity from me in this message, just to tell you that it starts to be a very long time that this grand-strategy napo game is awaited ...

Anyway, thanks to matrixgames to exist !!!

regards
nukkxx

Post #: 1

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/20/2005 7:38:14 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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Well, we didn't exist 6 or 7 years ago and I think it wasn't until four years ago at the earliest that we got the license so I think your time scale has expanded a bit.

With that said, yes it has taken a long time. This is the work of a single developer (Marshall Ellis) with a small support staff. Unlike larger game companies, we can't throw 50 people at a project to finish it in twelve months. We also won't release this product until we feel (and Marshall and our testers feel) that it's ready to go. Otherwise, what would be the point of all the time and toil? Our opinion is that people will always be ready for a good game, whenever it is released and things are still looking good for a release this year.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)

Post #: 2

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/20/2005 8:28:06 PM

nukkxx5058

Posts: 2932
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From: France
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I just hope I won't die before the release of EIA ... :lol:

BTW, when was the free release os SPWAW ?? (this promotion action made me discover matrixgames ... (it was a great action !)

< Message edited by nukkxx -- 5/20/2005 8:31:58 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 3

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/20/2005 10:09:33 PM

Zap

Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
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Nukkxx, it is a great place! I hold your same enthusiasm. I learned about Matrix when I bought Korsun Pocket at a Fryes Electronics store. I've been enjoying this sight.

Thanks, Eric for taking the time out to reply.

I've praised Matrix before and have not changed my opinion. I don't pay attention to the negative posts. Its nice to be older, to be able to discern fact from fiction.

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Post #: 4

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/20/2005 11:39:39 PM

donkuchi19

Posts: 1062
Joined: 3/14/2004
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline

I found Matrix games when I was looking up EIA on the internet. Since then I have purchased WITP, GGWAW, RFTS, and CoD and downloaded PW and WiR. Not only have really enjoyed their games, I have learned so many new acronyms.

< Message edited by donkuchi -- 5/20/2005 11:40:42 PM >

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 5

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 4:21:41 AM

Pippin

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Joined: 11/9/2002
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quote:

so why don't you release an inperfect game (ie. with some bugs) that you will continuously improve with patches ? (like paradox does with EU games).

When companies start on that trend, I don't buy any of their games again.

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Post #: 6

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 5:07:47 AM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

When companies start on that trend, I don't buy any of their games again.

I enjoy EiA tremendously, and releasing a buggy version would be problematic, just as you say Pippin. I would probably be patient with the patches needed to fix it, but many gamers would not. Let's not let impatience lead to a critical and commercial failure - Matrix should get it right before releasing it. We'll all be glad they did in the long run.

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 7

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 5:42:44 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

No Coasters, dam it........

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Post #: 8

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 5:54:11 AM

NeverMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

When companies start on that trend, I don't buy any of their games again.

What trend is that? Giving a release date then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, etc, etc, etc.... Yeah, I tend to agree.

Why would I buy, or even consider looking at, any of Matrix Games' other games when this game as been so problematic for them? They only have 1 guy on this game, that's absurd. Hats off to Ellis but he should seek out a real company that might actually give him some support and back up what they say, unlike Matrix.

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 9

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 6:02:14 AM

denisonh

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From: Upstate SC
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"real" campanies as in a company focused on "making profit" vs publishing a quality product. Matrix has been upfront that they will publish quality products versus rushing "half ass" products into production like "real companies" (MOO3 anyone?)

Spare me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

When companies start on that trend, I don't buy any of their games again.

What trend is that? Giving a release date then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, etc, etc, etc.... Yeah, I tend to agree.

Why would I buy, or even consider looking at, any of Matrix Games' other games when this game as been so problematic for them? They only have 1 guy on this game, that's absurd. Hats off to Ellis but he should seek out a real company that might actually give him some support and back up what they say, unlike Matrix.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

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Post #: 10

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 6:02:33 AM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Hats off to Ellis but he should seek out a real company that might actually give him some support and back up what they say, unlike Matrix.

All well and good, if it was Ellis who had the license to produce EiA on behalf of ADG. Since Matrix has it, that's who will produce it. Marshall Ellis and his team are doing fine work, but without the legitimacy of Matrix, ADG would probably not have signed the deal.

< Message edited by coregames -- 5/23/2005 7:53:14 AM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 7:34:09 AM

Zap

Posts: 3639
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From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
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quote:

Hats off to Ellis but he should seek out a real company

Matrix is a real company albeit not like you would want them to be.
I will wait. I don't have the same urgency for release as you.

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Post #: 12

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 7:41:20 AM

nukkxx5058

Posts: 2932
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From: France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

quote:

so why don't you release an inperfect game (ie. with some bugs) that you will continuously improve with patches ? (like paradox does with EU games).

When companies start on that trend, I don't buy any of their games again.

"imperfect" doesn't necessarly mean "completely buged". Anyway, a computer software free of bugs is a dream and doesn't exist. There should be a balance between number of bugs, playability and release date. That's how software industry works.

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 13

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 7:22:43 PM

NeverMan

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A "real company" would throw more resources at Ellis to put out a quality product in a timely fashion.

I understand that Ellis doesn't have the license to publish EiA, however, my point was that from a programmer's standpoint I would find it hard to work for a company that didn't support me and kept hanging me out to dry.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)

Post #: 14

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/23/2005 7:24:10 PM

Pippin

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Joined: 11/9/2002
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The problem with that theory, is companies pump out rediculously buggy software, and also make it a habbit. Furthermore, many CLAIM these bugs will be fixed, but often you may never see one decent patch.

I have been burned too many times by this. I am a lot more cautious now than ever, and for good reason. Not much has improved since the early 80's. We have had our E.T. disasters back then, as well as our late 90's Iron Blitz disasters. We are in 2005, and I do not expect things to improve.

_____________________________

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Post #: 15

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/24/2005 5:08:20 AM

oldtimer

Posts: 48
Joined: 2/15/2004
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I think Matrix is doing a fine job and is very responsive to people in this forum. I for one am willing to wait for this game.

How many game companies have forums out there where a person has the opportunity to talk with the programmer as they are building the program?

How many companies will change their program based on feedback from said forum? Remember TMR (granted that is a big deal in EiA, but they were almost done and had to change that and add it in). That would have a MAJOR impact on their code and AI logic.

They tease us with screen shots, but I don't see that at other company. Now several other companies provide Demo games, but you still don't have any say on the final product as you do here. I watched how Matrix Games is also very dedicated to improving their released products GGWAW for example. They have worked hard in making player suggested improvements and are doing a great job at it.

Overall Matrix Games have shown to me that they are extrememly dedicated to there market and do all they can to put out quality products. It seems they believe the quality of the product is more important then the quantity of programs they produce. I think that is a rare trait these days.

Keep up the good work Marshall Ellis and Matrix Games.

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 16

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/24/2005 3:06:58 PM

ktotwf

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Amen!

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Post #: 17

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/24/2005 4:32:20 PM

nukkxx5058

Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
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Oldtimer said: "I think Matrix is doing a fine job and is very responsive to people in this forum. I for one am willing to wait for this game."

I recall you that I am waiting this game for 5 years ! (at the origin it was called "The wars of napoleon" then it has been canceled and replaced by a PC version of EiA. So you are mybe a bit otimistic when you say that "Matrix is doing a fine job and is very responsive to people in this forum". Yes, admins here are nice people. Fortunately otherwise I would be away for a long time !

Regarding bugs in softwares, all companies , including matrixgames sale buggy sofwares. Then the most serious companies fix bugs through patches. That's exactly what I'm expecting from matrixgames, jut because I trust those guys ! And that;s why I purchase their products.

Let now imagine they are working on bug corrections on PBEM right now. Does it prevent then to release the game without the PBM function and in 2 months to release the patch with full unbugged (as much as possible) PBEM patch which let us the time to learn how to play before starting pbem.

I usualy don't mind to wait for a procuct, but this time too much is too much. And of course, i don't blame the developper (marchal elis) but the company which doesn't provide enougn resources for the game's development. Does it mean they do not beleive in it ? and that game improvement budget will be cut to zero 3 months after the game release because of the small ommercial succes (compairing to development costs) letting the customer stucked with buggy software ad vitam eaternam ?

Did you realize that so many people who were looking at the game left because of the huge development duration (5 years so long !!!!)

Sorry, guys, but I think that, as a customer, I've got the right to fear such fufture for the game. I'm now looking to CoG as a more serious option ... (by chance, it stays in matrix's pocket ! :-)

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 18

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/24/2005 5:28:06 PM

Marshall Ellis

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From: Dallas
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Hey guys:

There are a lot of people waiting on this game and I know that! I also know that we've done everything with the best intentions to our customer HOWEVER, I cannot predict how many and the severity of each bug the testers find thus I miss release dates because of this. Matrix is behind me and backs me with as many resources as they can and YEP, you're right it is never enough BUT it would never be enough even if I were working at Microsoft!

I can tell you that we are VERY, VERY close to be able to release this thing and I know that you all have heard that a thousand times but I'll just make it a thousand and one times!

I appreciate all of your support and understand the frustration!

Thank you

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Thank you

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Outflank Strategy War Games

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Post #: 19

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/24/2005 5:41:48 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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NeverMan,

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
What trend is that? Giving a release date then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, then giving another release date, then not meeting it, etc, etc, etc.... Yeah, I tend to agree.

Why would I buy, or even consider looking at, any of Matrix Games' other games when this game as been so problematic for them? They only have 1 guy on this game, that's absurd. Hats off to Ellis but he should seek out a real company that might actually give him some support and back up what they say, unlike Matrix.

You've made a few assumptions:

1. That only one person has ever worked on this project (though Marshall certainly has the Lion's Share)
2. That a project with a small team that changes from a separate game to a EiA adaptation is easy to set a schedule on
3. That there are a lot of other "real" companies out there with an interest in a turn-based EiA adaptation that would do it "right".
4. That the fact that we've released over thirty games in the past five years is irrelevant compared to a few that have been delayed.

We are committed to seeing this through and releasing Empires In Arms for the computer.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 20

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/24/2005 9:23:49 PM

pasternakski

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Thank you for the information, Marshall and Erik. All I ask is that this game be complete and playable on release. Please take your time.

To those pressing for release, I don't see that you are out anything because you do not have this game. I have plenty to do to keep me busy in my wargaming hobby and will see this as a welcome addition to that when it becomes available.

Meantime, I'm immersed in a four-player full campaign game of "War and Peace." I'm France. They're killin' me.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 21

War and Peace - 5/25/2005 1:03:37 AM

Greyshaft

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Meantime, I'm immersed in a four-player full campaign game of "War and Peace." I'm France. They're killin' me.

Do you mean the AH boardgame or the RedAnt PC game?

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Post #: 22

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/26/2005 7:17:22 PM

von Wachtstein

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I have the board game, and it is still my favorite game of all time. Of course since no one in their right mind today would consider taking the time necessary to play a game of that scope (at least I haven't found anyone!), it collects dust on the shelf.

As far as playing the electronic version, I will buy it as soon as it is released. Now, having said that, I expect it to be playable, and to not make me lose any more hair than I already have lost.

So, take your time Mr. Ellis, and give me a damned fine game to play. It's been 17 years since I last played EiA, another 17 months won't make a bit of difference, as long as it's done well.

< Message edited by von Wachtstein -- 5/27/2005 2:56:13 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: War and Peace - 5/26/2005 8:15:53 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Meantime, I'm immersed in a four-player full campaign game of "War and Peace." I'm France. They're killin' me.

Do you mean the AH boardgame or the RedAnt PC game?

RedAnt PC game? Never heard of it. Any details?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 24

RE: War and Peace - 5/26/2005 10:23:23 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
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From: Seattle, WA
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Just in case anyone is interested. The other Strategic level Napoleonic game that Matrix is working on is called "Crown of Glory" and they're hoping to release it at the Origins Gaming Expo at the end of June.

Here is a link with more information about it.

http://www.west-civ.com/

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Post #: 25

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/26/2005 10:37:13 PM

fgillig

Posts: 9
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I have been playing EIA for over 10 years straight

with 3-4 friends. We get together about once a month to do gaming sessions. Takes about three years to play a full game if you don't restart due to someone ran away with the win. First copy kind of getting worn so I have a second copy in the wings. We have the map on a piece of sheet metal on the wall and use magnetic clips for the counters. Works real nice and saves space to keep the map up over a long period. Just started a new game last Fall and I finally got to be Russia for once.

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Post #: 26

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/26/2005 11:14:04 PM

celebrindal

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Holy carp and I thought 6+ months to play WiF was a long time :-)

Although on a side point I've had a WiF game going at my house, once a week, for nearly 15 years.

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Post #: 27

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/26/2005 11:22:54 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celebrindal

Holy carp

Thanks, man, I've got to find a way to use that one. I'll give you full copyright credit, of course.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to celebrindal)

Post #: 28

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/27/2005 7:12:27 AM

StrictlyRockers

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I am a big Empires in Arms fan. The game can easily take a year of real time to complete. Getting six or seven players together for England, France, Austria, Prussia, Russia, Ottomans and Spain to play once a week makes for multi-year games. I played Austria in our last game. EiA is one of the best games ever made. It is one of the few that rivals WiF for fun and realism. Charles vs Nappy is always a fun battle.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 29

RE: Guys ... it lasts long - 5/27/2005 11:49:16 PM

donkuchi19

Posts: 1062
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From: Cleveland, Ohio
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I had once transferred the map from EIA onto a piece of wallboard. (Basically it was just an extra piece of drywall). We played that game for several years using home made counters and push pins.

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Post #: 30