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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Decisive Battles: Battles In Italy >> You got to be kidding me Page: [1]
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You got to be kidding me - 5/27/2005 11:03:01 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Husky, ends in a draw

your giving too many points to places that don't mean anything !

I took Messina (?) before the end of the battle, took Palamo on the last turn, destroyed both Panzer Divs

that battle is all about getting the good troops out of Silcy, not on holding a little town or two

besides, if the Allies take Messina, every Axis unit left in Silcy should could as a kill for the Allied player

good game, good battle, but the victory points/totals need to be looked at

HARD_Sarge


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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/27/2005 11:40:16 PM   
pterrok


Posts: 79
Joined: 11/13/2003
From: Shreveport, LA USA
Status: offline 		What you describe sounds like a draw to me...though it mainly depends on when you took Messina.

Last time I played against the AI I DID kill every Axis unit.
By Turn 20.

That gave me an Overwhelming Victory!

So tighten your belt and try harder, sarge!

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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/28/2005 12:03:33 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Congrats on your skill

but you miss the point, if the Allies had taken Messina and not allowed the GE Panzer Divs and other troops to get away, it would of been a major victory, overall, in real life this was a win for the Axis forces, of course, many more wins like that, and you lose anyways

I guess part of the hassle with the battle in the game is it is not designed to have the Axis trying to delay long enough, to get the troops out, while delaying the Allies long enough from a easy win

HARD_Sarge


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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/28/2005 1:05:27 AM   
pterrok


Posts: 79
Joined: 11/13/2003
From: Shreveport, LA USA
Status: offline 		No, I got your point, I was just being a bit silly, is all...

I kinda meant that if you took Messina early enough, you CAN kill all the Axis units simply because you can run them out of supply. If you take it too late their supply trucks may still have crates and be able to supply the units. Meaning in game terms that you did not actually kill them, so you don't get credit for them...I guess SSG could have added special hard-code for a case where capture of an objective makes all the units surrender. (Except those that were on the other part of the map, and maybe in Palermo and other coastal towns and...)

I'm a game player more than a war-historian, so you'll have to answer this: if the Allies had captured Messina a bit earlier are you saying there is no way the Axis could have evacuated units from Palermo, for example? If not somewhere else, by hook or crook?

The game balance question comes up in every scenario; trying to emulate what actually happened in history vs what you can do in the game while making it come out a draw between equally skilled players is the hardest thing to do. However, it would be very easy for you to go into the editor and change the point schedule for Messina to give the Allies so many points that just by capturing it the Allies would get an Overwhelming win. (Wait! If you think of doing that, make a copy of the scenario first or else you can't play email games vs other people!)

Anyway, MY main point was that the AI is a learning tool; you've learned a bit about the scenario and so next time you'll have different objectives in mind to GET the Overwhelming Win even with the current point schedule vs the AI. And when you try and take Messina away from JSS, for example, you'll see that changing the capture points was moot, anyway!

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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/28/2005 1:23:49 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Well, look at the map, Messina is just a stone throw away from the Boot of Italy, Palarmo, is a lot farther away, which the Allies had command of the sea, and also of the air

without the port of Messina, and the shipping/ferries in that area (ships that could cross the short opening, but not the long trip) no the Axis could not of pulled out

(while not as big a feat as Dunkirk, it ranked as a pretty close deal)

there are some very good books on the battle,, which was a major shock to the Allies, they had all cards in the deck, and played there hand very poorly, had total air control, but as the Germen pilots joked, you could tell when the mess hall was serveing lunch, as there were never any Allied planes in the air at noontime (which is when most of the Paras made it to Silcy, and the little air transport was able to be done)

(but as was the case in most battles, the Yanks and Brits improved as they went along, and were clicking on all tracks by the end of the battle and were not making many mistakes any more)

I am playing another round, and doing much better this time around, got a better airdrop, and my landings went off much better also (lost a dang GB arty !!!!)

I'll have to check the time line of the battle, if Messina fell on day 30 or later, then any capture of the city before then, should have a major effect on the score

HARD_Sarge


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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/28/2005 1:36:03 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		some background on the battle

July 10th, the Allies landed

on Aug 17th, Patton marched into Messina, his army had cut off 50,000 It Troops in the western part of the island

the Axis were able to pull out of Silcy 40,000 Germen and 60,000 It troops

so, since Messina fell on the 37th or so day of the battle, I would say taking it on the 25th day, should be seen as being better then history, in fact, taking it on the 30th day, should still be seen as a good deal

ahhh, one of the hassles when you try to compare a game to history

HARD_Sarge


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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/30/2005 11:48:21 PM   
Moltke71


Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline 		Palermo wasn't defended well; Patton took it easily so, if Messina falls early, Palermo wasn't an evacuation option. Also, the Allied navy wouldn't have hesitated blocking Palermo as they hesitated about entering the Messina straits.

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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/31/2005 2:45:50 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		In a PBEM game with a half competent human player Messina cannot fall

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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/31/2005 6:08:20 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

In a PBEM game with a half competent human player Messina cannot fall

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I'll buy that...having achieved my 3rd overwhelming victory as the Axis...i feel confident that in my hands Messina cannot fall.

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A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/31/2005 2:36:33 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Hi Hell and Joe

well that is one of the hassles with a game, in the game, there is no reason for the Axis to even try to fight a delaying action


(got a few ideas on how they could change that, but then you get rules/scoreing that forces the player to act like History did, and that in the long run is not right either)

oh well

HARD_Sarge


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RE: You got to be kidding me - 5/31/2005 6:38:09 PM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well that is one of the hassles with a game, in the game, there is no reason for the Axis to even try to fight a delaying action

So true, my score as the Axis victor was 2000+ points higher in the round where i went on the offensive.


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A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
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