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Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/20/2005 11:21:25 PM

bhaktamichael

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I am enjoying both of your TS games very much - I have read on an interview that Robert E Lee was the potential focus in the future amongst others - the Civil War could so use this great format and great AI. ANy idea when your great team will offer as that masterpiece?

Michael

P.S> Thank you for your work and ongoing support and also , and mainly, your ability to put a great AI out for the solo playing crowd in wargaming.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/22/2005 12:57:51 AM

Hertston

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The Civil War would certainly be my top choice for the next in the series. It would seem smart too; I think TS has gone as far with ancients as it can, and about the only other period as popular as ACW would be Napoleonics - but assuming Matrix are still Koios' publishers they have plenty of Napoleonic stuff coming up already. The only ACW game seems to be the one based on the GGWaW engine, which would hardly compete with a TS:ASW.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/26/2005 9:09:28 PM

offbase

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This system would be a perfect medium for the Crusades. Who has ever seen the battle of Hattin modeled in a wargame??? Or The Lionheart's march along the coast, attacked by Saleh-al-Din while in column of march, yet winning??? Lots of nice possibilities, and ripe for marketing after the success of a still-running flick on the Crusades.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/28/2005 12:35:52 PM

ravinhood

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I highly agree, Napoleanics is far from being the only thing that would work with this system. It's merely one of them, but, the medieval times, dark ages, even the American Revolutionary war, and plenty plenty of more ancient periods to work with like the Greek civil wars, Battle of Troy, lord knows there's a plethora of things they can make from this game besides crummy ole same ole napoleanic garbage. ;)

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/29/2005 2:50:58 PM

CamelCity

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I'd love to see a TS game based on the wars of ancient China. Just my $.02...

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/29/2005 3:03:19 PM

ravinhood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CamelCity

I'd love to see a TS game based on the wars of ancient China. Just my $.02...

Yeah a "Romance of the 3 Kingdoms" conversion would be great. ;)

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/30/2005 1:10:23 PM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I highly agree, Napoleanics is far from being the only thing that would work with this system.

Who was saying that is was? The whole point of the thread was that an ACW game might be the best choice next, not a Napoleonic one.

The reality check here is that the game has to sell. Much as I enjoy them, I doubt (judged by the relative levels of forum traffic, anyway) that TS sells as well as many Matrix releases (WitP, Decisive Battles, HttR etc). Alex obviously did well enough to justify Caesar, and I suspect Caesar is the more popular of the two, but IMHO some of the ideas here, while excellent, wouldn't sell anywhere near as well as a Civil War or Napoleonics game. Medieval might, maybe. That could be done without changing the system much, whereas both ACW and Nappy would require a change of scale IMHO. You would need many more unit elements to get anything other than a very abstract game - maybe 50-100 or so a side, certainly if any major battles were included (rather than the common dodge of isolating parts of them).

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/30/2005 3:19:16 PM

e_barkmann

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quote:

You would need many more unit elements to get anything other than a very abstract game - maybe 50-100 or so a side, certainly if any major battles were included (rather than the common dodge of isolating parts of them).

I think the current unit numbers are one of the reasons I am really enjoying TSJC - having 20-24 units to control presents me with a manageable, enjoyable game that I can play within an evening. Anything much more than that and it would turn into a 'monster scenario' game that I wouldn't consider playing.

Cheers Chris

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/30/2005 7:01:28 PM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

I think the current unit numbers are one of the reasons I am really enjoying TSJC - having 20-24 units to control presents me with a manageable, enjoyable game that I can play within an evening. Anything much more than that and it would turn into a 'monster scenario' game that I wouldn't consider playing.

It depends on the overall game design. If you took TS as-is and just trebled the units on each side (with bigger maps to suit) you may well be right, but introduce a degree of "delegation" to sub-ordinates and even large ACW/Napoleonic battles remain quite manageable. You just order (when you choose) say, three element brigades instead of a battalion sized element.

You have a lot of possibilities, then. Subordinates could be either AI or human, which would really perk up multiplay - doesn't Gettysburg with a human player as each Corps Commander sound fun ?

Most importantly, though, you can have a real bash at playing those large battles with something resembling historical tactics , although there's no reason you couldn't have smaller scenarios (like the defence of McPherson's Ridge on the first day, for example) if you wanted. Ideally, a scenario designer would be included to facilitate that.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/30/2005 7:44:40 PM

wodin

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ACW is prob more a war that Americans would buyinto. Napoleonic has a more wroldwide appeal I'd imagine.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/31/2005 2:37:09 AM

Hertston

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You might be surprised. There seem to be as many Brits as Americans on the Take Command:1861 boards - and the game hasn't even been published here! The ACW has always been a popular period in the UK; in my miniatures days there was almost as much interest as there was in Napoleonics and ancients. We have active re-enactment groups, too.

I think the nature of the war extends interest beyond national boundaries. Its very hard to think of any other conflict that mixed tragedy, idealism and heroism in quite the same way, and add in excellent suitability for wargaming and you have a very universal appeal.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/31/2005 3:11:53 AM

e_barkmann

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quote:

It depends on the overall game design. If you took TS as-is and just trebled the units on each side (with bigger maps to suit) you may well be right, but introduce a degree of "delegation" to sub-ordinates and even large ACW/Napoleonic battles remain quite manageable. You just order (when you choose) say, three element brigades instead of a battalion sized element.

This is how games like HTTR function and in many ways makes the them manageable.

I think this would be going against the spirit of the TS series - ie it is depicted as a tabletop game where you are in control of each unit. However I agree with you in that to get some of the larger battles happening I can't see how else you would do this, and the AI demonstrated so far is quite capable. Perhaps adding in some basic tasks to an AI group , eg attack here, probe there, defend this hill, will allow for some educated guesses from the AI.

There will be those who oppose any kind of delegated AI management, however.

Cheers Chris

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/31/2005 4:15:22 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

Its very hard to think of any other conflict that mixed tragedy, idealism and heroism in quite the same way, and add in excellent suitability for wargaming and you have a very universal appeal.

Oh, I'd much rather see a War of Independence 1776 type game even over ACW. That's where us Americans whipped the British all the way back to London. hehe I'd think it combined with the war of 1812 would make a great package deal. Then we can have that bloodly battle at New Orleans. ;)

In reality though, there's already enough Napoleonic and ACW games already out there, that's why I'm hoping they stay in the ancient period and perhaps into the medieval period and some ancient Chinese warfare.

Just this last year ancient games have really been coming into view. Spartan, Gates of Troy, (cough) Rome Total War, Tin Soldiers Caesar. Though still, there's no board game like game to computer of any of these type games. How I wish for a Caesar at Alesia board game to computer version of that battle. Maybe SSG will pickup on it some day.

Still wayyyy to many WWII titles being produced of the same bloody theaters with a different name on the game. Same with ACW and Napoleonics. Rather tired of those theaters and battles.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/31/2005 11:49:04 AM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Still wayyyy to many WWII titles being produced of the same bloody theaters with a different name on the game. Same with ACW and Napoleonics. Rather tired of those theaters and battles.

True enough on WW2, but where are these ACW titles? Other than the HPS games (basically one game with some very expensive scenario packs) and the (excellent) Take Command 1861: Bull Run, what else recent is there?

I guess it depends on where the devs want to go - the "Tin Soldiers" has always suggested to me it should look at the full range covered by the miniatures hobby, not just ancients. Samurai Japan would sell better than Ancient China I think, as would a medieval game based on the crusades or not. If they stuck with ancients I'd love to see a "Battles of the Bible", a subject I hadn't even thought about until reading Herzog and Gichon's superb book of that name. I seem to recall someone from Koios saying they had thought of it too, but decided (quite rightly IMHO) that there was no way it would sell.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 5/31/2005 3:10:01 PM

bhaktamichael

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The reason I started the thread was this quote from the president of the game's company - full interview link is on topic on this forum:

"So is the Ancient World a time period that Koios is sticking with, or could we possibly see a title based on the Napoleonic Wars or the American Civil War sometime in the future?

Depending on how successful Caesar is, we plan on moving into leaders such as Napoleon, Robert E. Lee and Gunderian. We are certainly not �ancients only.� "

Thanks for all the comments - I do hope they pursue ACW and Lee.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 6/1/2005 1:41:39 AM

siRkid

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I for one woud love to se a fantasy game. It you be great if they teamed up with the Warhammer people.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 6/1/2005 4:47:55 AM

TheHellPatrol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

I for one woud love to se a fantasy game. It you be great if they teamed up with the Warhammer people.

Now that would be fantastic, Tryanids...Chaos Marines...Mech's...they could do a whole series and still have more work to do

. Of course, that's just 40000, the Warhammer Dark Omen series would be even better

.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 6/1/2005 10:59:28 AM

Zap

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Yes a Amercan Cival War game. gooooooood.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 6/2/2005 1:33:32 AM

ravinhood

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LOL well we do seem to have a lot of different preferences here, maybe they will make something for everyone eventually. ;)

What I'd like to see is a grand scale campaign game simular to RTW and then use the minatures for all the battles. With ALLLLLL those different units and types from RTW in the game, but, with TS's AI, which is better since 1.1 as I get deeper into the games civil war.

I'd rather see provinces though for movement and control rather than individual tiles like RTW tried to do. It turned into a horrible system for the AI to work with, while it did rather well when it was provinces like Shogun and MTW.

This Tin Soldiers series is the best of the rest as far as my vote goes. It's such a welcome relief from same ole same ole WWII titles. I put it right up there with Spartan/Gates of Troy for fun an entertainment value.

Hope KOIOS can pull it off someday and make a more grand scale strategic/tactical game on a larger scale than Caesar even. That would be the ultimate of ultimates for me. ;) (Still looking for that random scenario generator out of them. heh)

Now, as far as Civil Wargames, going back to the mid 80's to present, from SSI's Gettysburg, Antietam, Shilo, Chickamauga, No Greater Glory, then to SSG's 3 or 4 volume series in the early 90's, up to Sid Meiers Gettysburg/Antietam, and all of HPS's Civil War titles, and Civil War Generals I & II, Age of Rifles, Blue Smoke/Grey Skies, that grand scale ACW (think they are doing a 2nd or 3rd edition of this now, North & South (funniest one of them all to play) yeah I'd say I have enough Civil War type titles. ;)

Napoleanic games? Back to the 80's again with Battles of Napoleon, then came Waterloo for the Amiga, then there was the first real time action game, can't recall the name right off, was really the first minatureized type battle of the battle of Waterloo though (Oh now I remember "Field of Glory", then once again SSG did at least one Napoleonic volume game I have it somewhere. lol and of course Matrixgames and HPS have both done significant service on the Napoleonics series, Talonsofts Waterloo and 3 others in that series, real time Austerlitz/Waterloo, then recently Imperial Glory, soon Crown for Glory, Empire in Arms. So, yeah I'd say I have enough Napoleonic games as well and enough coming.

But, Ancients titles, except for Centurion Defender of Rome and Carthage long ago made in the early 90's, there really was nothing else out there until recently with KOIOS and (cough) RTW and Spartan/Gates of Troy which I think is the best of their series, Legion and Chariots of War I didn't care for. Same for Medieval type games. I just fell feet over heels for MTW when I got it, for a straight month I played nothing else. Best title Creative Assembly did as far as I'm concerned.

I hope they stay in the Ancients or at least move up gradually to the ACW/Napoleonics type versions. I always had an interest in minatures warfare type games, but, I couldn't paint worth crap, so lost interest in the whole thing. I still like to watch others play out large battles on huge tables though. It's really the only thing that will pull me away most often from counters and hexes. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 6/2/2005 1:36:37 AM >

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 9/23/2005 10:32:51 PM

pomakli

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Hello everybody!

I want to repeat a name for three times....

Hannibal-Hannibal-Hannibal

Best regards!

Pomakli

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 9/24/2005 1:03:18 AM

benpark

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American Civil war or Nap. would be tops on my list. The games must have a decent scenario builder, however. Particularly as the series hits one area and moves on.

The issue of scale becomes an interesting one. When the series takes us to WW1 or later, the size of the units would seem to need to be platoon to squad size(in my wishes, squad). This would seem to make an interesting shift in the play of the game.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 9/24/2005 10:32:54 AM

ravinhood

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I think this engine would make a great "Battle of the Alamo", "Roarkes Drift", "Battle at Isandlawana" just to name a few of some of the more glorious battles of the past. It has so much promise I don't think you guys can make the games fast enough. Sooooo, what I suggest is that you make a "wargame construction set" and simply sell us "minatures" for various times in history. ;) Perhaps build a 3 tier construction set that would handle ancients rulesets, musket rulesets and then WWI/WWII rulesets. Then the modders can make the scenarios and you guys can concentrate on painting us figurines for different eras that we can buy from you. ;) You should be able to do that a lot faster than making one game, then building another, then another and another etc. etc....cmon you know I'm right. ;)

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 9/28/2005 11:00:02 PM

DaveB

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I think they ought to look at periods/situations with good PR value, and less exposure... ACW is hardly an untouched genre, ditto Napoleonic... but it's gotta be a period/setting that will attract players, great critical acclaim doesn't pay the bills. I quite fancy something like the Arthurian legends - engine from JC would probably suffice (I'd guess) as much of the warfare would be similar, but you've got a couple of ready made 'career/campaign' ideas to play with - conquer/rule Britain, Holy Grail, develop your Knights etc to provide the unit progression that hooks people into a good game. Obviously you can do stuff like Agincourt/Crecy/Henry V if you want pure history.

Personally the one thing I don't like about JC is that I'd prefer a game where the units reflected historical formations a bit more - the legion subunits generally encountered being centuries, maniples, cohorts etc - instead we have a cavalry unit and 3 infantry units, which doesn't immediately strike me as being obviously tied into actual legion formations? Doubtless it makes no real difference, but to me I like to 'identify' with what I'm moving around the map, and in JC I want to shift a legion around, moving rear ranks forward to replace the front ranks as the battle progresses, with a feeling that 'oh good, here's the 3rd cohort Leg X, my favourite unit' whilst in reality my tactics tend more towards 'have a rank that stays nicely lined up, now walk towards the enemy flag'.

Oh, I want to turn off the silly 'hand picking the dead guys up' as it just wastes time.
<g>
I DO like the game though, chiefly cos I Like that period and I'm a sucker for any half decent game on it!
Dave

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 12/12/2005 3:24:12 PM

ravinhood

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They also should look at picking a market that there is not high competition in, cause let's face it minatures isn't the grand dela grand of wargaming in any catagory. So, Medieval or Ancient China/Japan or more Ancients would still stand out as NEW and DIFFERENT from the same ole tired ACW/Napoleonics/WWII that's out there all the time. I was drawn to Tin Soldiers BECAUSE it was Ancients, had it been ACW/Napoleonics/WWII I probably would have passed on it, since I have some of the best games of these eras already and it's going to be very very very hard to compete against MAD MINUTES Civil War Titles now for my $$. Combat Mission has a lock on WWII titles. The mod for MTW to Napoleonics has a lock on Napoleonic titles. So in their best interests Ancients with a random map random army generator would be where I would take the game. ;)

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 12/13/2005 12:05:36 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

What I'd like to see is a grand scale campaign game simular to RTW and then use the minatures for all the battles...

I'd rather see provinces though for movement and control rather than individual tiles...

Totally agree with you Ravinhood. What you're describing is something like Lords of the Realms 2 as well.

The lack of a tie between the Tin Soldiers battles is really all that this series is missing imho. I really don't like the inter-battle refit screen where money arrives out of no where to be spent of reinforcements, refit and cards.

Koios made a nice improvement with Julius Caesar in that it is now harder to refit everything everytime but yeah - I'd like something like Lords of the Realms 2 which offered a really nice economic and provincial management model - and portrayed everything from the conquest of the British Isles to the wars over Europe to the Crusades.

Julius Caesar is on the right track in that the spread of strategic choices as to which battle to fight is larger but it just doesn't feel like an Empire is being built or defended.

Tin Soldiers really right now is just a great PC table top minatures sim. Kudos for that alone too.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 12/20/2005 8:59:47 AM

ravinhood

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Main thing about Koios and Slitherine and even some Creative Assembly stuff, at least it's not WWII or the Civil War or Napoleon strikes again and again and again. lol That's one thing that impresses me most about those developers, some of them heard us and moved into hardly developed or published titles.

MANO MANO Koios could you do the ZULU battles???? Isandlawana and Rorkes Drift!!!??? Please Please Please? haha Oh Oh Oh and for us Texicans "The Battle of the Alamo!" ;) I played the heck out of I believe it was Interplay that made it "Rorkes Drift", loved that game for it's time. But, really it had horrible AI and interface, but, I still played it. ;)

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 12/20/2005 2:49:25 PM

Alan Sharif

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I really do feel we have plenty of ACW/Napoleonic games. Hannibal is the next obvious move for this games series. Stick with the old historical periods. ACW/Napoleon would be a different games series I think.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 12/20/2005 11:10:52 PM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
MANO MANO Koios could you do the ZULU battles???? Isandlawana and Rorkes Drift!!!??? Please Please Please? haha Oh Oh Oh and for us Texicans "The Battle of the Alamo!" ;)

That would be a blast. Have you played "Victoria Cross"? A board game but cool write-ups on the net.

http://www.worthingtongames.com/

I saw that new "Alamo" movie the other day. Cable played the classic John Wayne one too. I kinda liked them both but the newer one explored the ramifications more deeply and of course, the battle action was darker.

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 12/21/2005 1:04:20 AM

koiosworks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Oh Oh Oh and for us Texicans "The Battle of the Alamo!" ;) I played the heck out of I believe it was Interplay that made it "Rorkes Drift", loved that game for it's time. But, really it had horrible AI and interface, but, I still played it. ;)

You are aware that we are based in Dallas? Born in bred in the great state of Tejas. At least 4 out of 5 of us - we got one Okie too (can't be perfect ya know!)

Gig-Em!

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RE: Next TS game - Robert E Lee maybe next? - 12/22/2005 10:49:20 AM

Hentzau

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quote:

ORIGINAL: koiosworks

You are aware that we are based in Dallas? Born in bred in the great state of Tejas. At least 4 out of 5 of us - we got one Okie too (can't be perfect ya know!)

Gig-Em!

See there's at least two sales for the Texas Revolution, like the Zulu idea too!

Seems like the great state of Texas should have some money lying around to fund that game.

< Message edited by Hentzau -- 12/22/2005 10:55:29 AM >

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