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map stuff - 6/3/2005 9:12:54 AM   
Lemurs!


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Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		Hi all,

First, there is not a city of Brunei, that is the name of the Sultanate. The cities should probably be Miri and Labuan. Or Miri and Seria whichever you like.
This is very unimportant i just got sick of seeing Brunei as a city.

Second, I found some decent maps of Malaya, and Thailand from the war and noticed that the rail line Bangkok - Singora has a functional rail spur that leads to the Burmese border about 10 miles from Victoria Point.
As it stands there is no connection to Victoria Point and it takes about forever to get there and you can not supply it from land sources.
Victoria Point does not suffer from either the North or South monsoon as bad as some places and was actually fairly cleared.

What do you all think about making it slightly easier to get in and out of there?

Also, why is Lamon bay disconnected from the rest of the Phillipines? Both Infanta and Mauban had semi roads leading more or less to the hex south east of Manila. The southern Sierra Madres are not terribly high or rough.

This is not at all a complaint Andrew, as your work is a huge part of the sucess of the CHS but it seems to me the Phillipines is probably as a whole the least accurate part of the map.
Were you planning on looking at this again when you get a chance? Or is this as good as 60 mile hexes can get it?

Thanks,
Mike


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RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 2:41:16 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		1. Vickie's point. I also have topo map and would need to look at that - there is a mtn rnage down the spine of the isthmus - it might be the reason for the 10 mile gap.
2. Mtns might not be 25,000 feet high but still might be difficult to traverse ... the Japanese did land at Lamon bay historically, how long before they were in Manilla afterwards ?

As you know ... my preference ... all other things being equal ... is to err on the side of making things more difficult for the players rather than less so ... but if there is data to support these changes I would not disagree.



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Post #: 2
RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 4:37:09 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline 		Regarding Victoria Point: I have seen that railway as well. It is in Thailand, as opposed to Victoria Point itself, which is across the other side of an inlet, and in Burma. I have no idea how Victoria Point was supplied - was that Thai railway, which as Lemurs says stops short, used for supplying Victoria Point? Or was it supplied purely by sea?

I actually had that spur represented on previous versions of my map, as a "road" linking 26,40 (the main railway line) to 25,40. Because it didn't connect to Victoria Point itself, most people thought it was an error, and I got quite a few emails asking whether the road was put there by mistake (it was not). I eventually decided that since this "road" link was not exactly useful, and was causing confusion, I would simply remove it, which is what I did.

If anyone has evidence that this link WAS important for the Victoria Point base, then I can revisit the issue again.

Regarding the Philippines: I don't have much knowledge of the Philippines, for which I used the same map sources I used for the rest of the map. I will take a closer look at Lamon Bay to see whether the map needs to be revised here. I might actually ask Don Bowen about this - he is the authority on the Philippines.

Thanks for the comments. Good timing too - I am thinking about a new map revision. I need things like this pointed out.

Andrew

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RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 5:20:26 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Andrew,

I would like to make 1 more observation. A while back, you told me the reasoning behind putting the rail line from Whitehorse to Juneau. I totally agree with your reasoning that inter-island shipping would be about as good for supplying Juneau as a rail line (I think this was the reasoning).

However, if Japan invaded mainland Alaska, they could march on down to Juneau without making an amphibious attack. That is something that you might want to consider. Assaulting Juneau would only be possible via ship. Not marching from Whitehorse.

Anyway, I play the AI and it's easier for me to supply Juneau with the rail line and the AI won't invade there. So, it makes absolutely no difference if you leave it as it is.

FYI, I would be one person interested in a map that has the malaria lines, but not the weather and control zone lines. I'm happy using the one you've made with all the lines, but IF you actually made one with only hexes and malaria lines, I'd use it.

Thanks, Brad

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Post #: 4
RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 7:12:12 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		I had prepared a lengthy response for this thread. Spent over an hour on it - describing Laguna de Bay, the Tayabas Mountains, the Manila Railroad, Route 1 and Route 21, and the American and Japanese movements. But when I went to submit the post I found the site had gone down and I lost everything. It presented an opportunity to use some of the vocabulary extensions acquired during naval service.

I’m just not going to work all that up again. Here are my main points and conclusions:
1. Laguna de Bay (a large lake in the center of Luzon) and the Tayabas Mountains inhibit movement in the region.
2. The actual Japanese Landings were at the Southern end of Lamon Bay (SE of Manila, not due east) and the advance was first to the west and then turning north.
3. The lack of direct road connection between the Lamon Bay hex and the Manila hex is a reasonable representation of these terrain difficulties.
4. Given the scale, I would recommend no changes. However it would be nice if some non-historical "fattening" and "thinning" of Luzon could be done at some future date so that the Lamon Bay and Vigan bases are on the coast.

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Post #: 5
RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 8:13:57 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		Don,

Sorry about the crash, it's the nature of such things. Howver, I've previously lost long posts without a crash just because my login "timed out". I've gotten in the habit of always doing a "select all - copy" of the post text before clicking on Ok or Preview and it has saved me many epithets.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 6
RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 9:03:52 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Don,

Sorry about the crash, it's the nature of such things. Howver, I've previously lost long posts without a crash just because my login "timed out". I've gotten in the habit of always doing a "select all - copy" of the post text before clicking on Ok or Preview and it has saved me many epithets.

Regards,

- Erik


Good advice and I shall take it.

Still, it was fun to drag out the old cusswords again, especially those with hyphens. Reminds me of my youth.





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Post #: 7
RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 9:13:16 PM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		You know you haven't been young since last century Don!

Mike

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Post #: 8
RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 9:18:01 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

You know you haven't been young since last century Don!

Mike


Actually not since last millennia.

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Post #: 9
RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 9:35:46 PM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		This following post was also written just before the crash; I saved it to notepad and here it is. Don, keep in mind i wrote this before i saw your latest post.
-------------------------------------------------------------------


The Japanese landed 1 regiment, 1 tank battalion and 2 artillery battalions at Lamon bay (Mauban) on the 24th of December. By that evening they had moved south 15 miles over a metalled road which joined route 1, a paved highway, to Lucena on Tayabas bay. Part of the problem is the map... Lamon bay and Tayabas bay on the south side are not 2 different hexes but maybe 15 miles apart.

anyway, this Japanese force reached Manilla on the 31st, so 7 days from Lamon bay to Manilla. In game that would take 38 days or so.

On Victoria Point, the rail spur ends at a dock on the Thai side of the inlet between Thailand and Burma(Victoria Point). The inlet is less than 2 miles wide at its widest point and too shallow for subs.
This, in my opinion, should be considered a road to Victoria point, as every other just off shore island, such as Penang, is considered to be a land base due to use of junks, motor boats etc in local use and not considered in our OOB.

Thoughts?

Mike

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RE: map stuff - 6/3/2005 10:47:05 PM   
Don Bowen


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The main landing (Mauban) was at the eastern end of Route 21. This road proceeds westward into the Tayabas Mountains until it reaches Mt. Banahao. It then splits, one section going south to join Route 1 and the other north where it encircles Laguna de Bay.

The main Japanese force took this north route until hitting Mt. Banahao, then turned north to Laguna de Bay and then west, following Route 21 until it ran into Route 1 at the SW corner of Laguna de Bay. Other Japanese forces had landed at Atimonan (where Route 1 reaches Lamon Bay) and Siain (location of the Manila Railroad). These forces moved along route 1 and the railroad and eventually joined the main body of the 16th Division SW of Laguna de Bay. The limitations of terrain made a march around the East of Laguna de Bay difficult and neither American defense nor Japanese attack spent much effort there.

You make a good point that, unimpeded by defensive forces, it would take only a day or so to move along Route 1 to Manila. The problem that I see is the placement of Lamon Bay adjacent to Manila (due to hex size). A good road connection would allow the Japanese to exert a zone of control over Manila immediately after landing - immediately cutting off all American forces to the North.

That's as far as I can take the analysis - anyone else??

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Post #: 11
RE: map stuff - 6/4/2005 12:41:13 AM   
Lord_Calidor


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From: Rijeka, CRO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

The main landing (Mauban) was at the eastern end of Route 21. This road proceeds westward into the Tayabas Mountains until it reaches Mt. Banahao. It then splits, one section going south to join Route 1 and the other north where it encircles Laguna de Bay.

The main Japanese force took this north route until hitting Mt. Banahao, then turned north to Laguna de Bay and then west, following Route 21 until it ran into Route 1 at the SW corner of Laguna de Bay. Other Japanese forces had landed at Atimonan (where Route 1 reaches Lamon Bay) and Siain (location of the Manila Railroad). These forces moved along route 1 and the railroad and eventually joined the main body of the 16th Division SW of Laguna de Bay. The limitations of terrain made a march around the East of Laguna de Bay difficult and neither American defense nor Japanese attack spent much effort there.

You make a good point that, unimpeded by defensive forces, it would take only a day or so to move along Route 1 to Manila. The problem that I see is the placement of Lamon Bay adjacent to Manila (due to hex size). A good road connection would allow the Japanese to exert a zone of control over Manila immediately after landing - immediately cutting off all American forces to the North.

That's as far as I can take the analysis - anyone else??


How about making Lamon Bay clear or cultivated hex? Graphically, it could be presented as kinda jungle-mountanious, similiar to central/southern Luzon, but in pwhex.dat could be defined as clear/cultivated.

It would mean units move at 10 miles/day with low fatigue, probably slower though.

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RE: map stuff - 6/4/2005 2:41:53 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
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From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
On Victoria Point, the rail spur ends at a dock on the Thai side of the inlet between Thailand and Burma(Victoria Point). The inlet is less than 2 miles wide at its widest point and too shallow for subs.
This, in my opinion, should be considered a road to Victoria point, as every other just off shore island, such as Penang, is considered to be a land base due to use of junks, motor boats etc in local use and not considered in our OOB.

Thoughts?

Mike


OK. One further question: Did the Japanese use the railway to move to Victoria Point?

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Post #: 13
RE: map stuff - 6/4/2005 2:42:49 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
You make a good point that, unimpeded by defensive forces, it would take only a day or so to move along Route 1 to Manila. The problem that I see is the placement of Lamon Bay adjacent to Manila (due to hex size). A good road connection would allow the Japanese to exert a zone of control over Manila immediately after landing - immediately cutting off all American forces to the North.

That's as far as I can take the analysis - anyone else??


Perhaps we could link Lamon Bay with a trail. Or would that still be too "fast"?



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RE: map stuff - 6/4/2005 2:59:26 AM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lord_Calidor

How about making Lamon Bay clear or cultivated hex? Graphically, it could be presented as kinda jungle-mountanious, similiar to central/southern Luzon, but in pwhex.dat could be defined as clear/cultivated.

It would mean units move at 10 miles/day with low fatigue, probably slower though.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Perhaps we could link Lamon Bay with a trail. Or would that still be too "fast"?



Well, after a RTFM pause, either Clear or Trail:

Clear: Infantry 10 mi/day, Armor 30
Trail: 5 mi/day for Infantry and Armor

Clear would give 6 days for infantry and 2 for armor. This seems pretty good, the 6 days for infantry almost right on the seven days quoted by Lemurs.

Trail would give 12 days for troops and armor. Probably too slow overall but has the advantage of infantry and armour at same speed and might represent the problems tanks have in mountains.

I guess clear might be best. I'm going to have to go and look up what it is now.

Don

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Post #: 15
RE: map stuff - 6/4/2005 7:59:35 AM   
akdreemer


Posts: 1028
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: offline 		On the subject of map alteration, there several minor additions/corrections in Alaska.

First, the City of Whittier is an ice free port located in NW Prince William Sound that was devloped early war as a hedge against the loss of a vulnerable trestle bridge on a section of the Alaska RR from Seward to Anchorage. It should be located in the hex to the east of Anchorage (114/28)with a rail spur (no road) going to Anchorage (they actually dug a 2 mile tunnel to get to the port). Or maybe just run the railroad from Seward into this hex and then west into Anchorage since whittier is leass than 6 air miles from the mainline. Probably a af0/pt2 with a 0/1 to start with would work fine for Whittier.

Also Juneau should be completly isolated from land transportation, as it is in real life. The White Pass Railroad is a narrow gauge RR that runs between Whitehorse and Skagway. Skagway should be located in hex 122/18. Since Haines should also located the same hex as Skagway an af1/pt3 would be appropriate, with an initial build of 1/2. Skagway was a major port during the Yukon gold rush of 1897-1901 and also a major port of debarkation for transhipment of supplies and equipment for the building of the ALCAN Hwy.



Mark, you are doing a great job..

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RE: map stuff - 6/4/2005 3:40:30 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

On the subject of map alteration, there several minor additions/corrections in Alaska.

First, the City of Whittier is an ice free port located in NW Prince William Sound that was devloped early war as a hedge against the loss of a vulnerable trestle bridge on a section of the Alaska RR from Seward to Anchorage. It should be located in the hex to the east of Anchorage (114/28)with a rail spur (no road) going to Anchorage (they actually dug a 2 mile tunnel to get to the port). Or maybe just run the railroad from Seward into this hex and then west into Anchorage since whittier is leass than 6 air miles from the mainline. Probably a af0/pt2 with a 0/1 to start with would work fine for Whittier.


Adding Whittier was considered when first drawing the Alaska map, but at the time it was decided not to add it, on the assumption that it could be considered "abstracted" into the Anchorage base, and I didn't want to add too many new bases. Sometime later I decided to add Seward as a separate base, but I am still not sure it is worth using up yet another base slot for Whittier.

quote:

Also Juneau should be completly isolated from land transportation, as it is in real life. The White Pass Railroad is a narrow gauge RR that runs between Whitehorse and Skagway. Skagway should be located in hex 122/18. Since Haines should also located the same hex as Skagway an af1/pt3 would be appropriate, with an initial build of 1/2. Skagway was a major port during the Yukon gold rush of 1897-1901 and also a major port of debarkation for transhipment of supplies and equipment for the building of the ALCAN Hwy.


This point is raised every now and again. In the case of Skagway, I decided to just assume that units and supplies would be able to easily travel between Skagway and Juneau using local ferry transport, and that this could be represented by not having a separate base at Skagway and extending the rail line to Juneau. Since units only travel 90 miles per day maximum this did not seem unreasonable, and it allowed me to again save a base slot by not having a separate Skagway base.

In general I am always reluctant to add new bases. This is especially true if they will not have a significant effect on gameplay. The obvious exception to that is that I hate having huge expanses of territory without any bases at all, even in areas that will not see land combat (such as Canada). So I do add a few bases here and there in such places.

Andrew

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Post #: 17
RE: map stuff - 6/4/2005 4:43:48 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Minor point but I don't think Lahaina (Maui) ever had a significant airfield. There was a military airfield on the other side of the island. Perhaps just call it Maui?

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Post #: 18
RE: map stuff - 6/4/2005 9:58:35 PM   
akdreemer


Posts: 1028
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: offline 		Big snip

quote:


This point is raised every now and again. In the case of Skagway, I decided to just assume that units and supplies would be able to easily travel between Skagway and Juneau using local ferry transport, and that this could be represented by not having a separate base at Skagway and extending the rail line to Juneau. Since units only travel 90 miles per day maximum this did not seem unreasonable, and it allowed me to again save a base slot by not having a separate Skagway base.

In general I am always reluctant to add new bases. This is especially true if they will not have a significant effect on gameplay. The obvious exception to that is that I hate having huge expanses of territory without any bases at all, even in areas that will not see land combat (such as Canada). So I do add a few bases here and there in such places.

Andrew


Okay, I can live with this.

Richard

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Post #: 19
RE: map stuff - 6/6/2005 1:30:22 AM   
Andrew Brown


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From: Hex 82,170
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quote:

Second, I found some decent maps of Malaya, and Thailand from the war and noticed that the rail line Bangkok - Singora has a functional rail spur that leads to the Burmese border about 10 miles from Victoria Point.
As it stands there is no connection to Victoria Point and it takes about forever to get there and you can not supply it from land sources.


I have been doing some research into this rail link. From what I have see so far, this railway was similar to the Burma railway - it was a narrow gauge line built by the Japanese during the war, using slave lablur. It only reached half way to Victoria Point, and it was not completed until November 1943. On that bases I don't think it should be added. Having said that, there is an argument for adding some other link to Victoria point, such as a road or a trail, but if this is done we run into one of the limitations of the game. Units move using the link type of the hex they are leaving, so a unit moving from hex 26,40 to VP would move at a rail rate anyway, even if the VP hex itself only had a trail.

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Post #: 20
RE: map stuff - 6/6/2005 3:05:20 AM   
Lemurs!


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Status: offline 		That was built during the war? That will teach me to use a '43 map.

Where do you find guage and single-double track info? I can find that sort of thing for Europe but not for SEA.

All i know is it took 3 weeks for a unit with full supply to get to Victoria Point and it is going to take 5 weeks to get out of VP.
It did not take this long in the origional and i just think 3 weeks is too long.

Mike

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RE: map stuff - 6/6/2005 6:08:24 PM   
Bradley7735


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Status: offline 		Hi Andrew,

Norfolk Island is outside of your Malaria lines. However, it is a malaria base. You might want to look at this and see if you should move your malaria line a bit further south so it encompases Norfolk Is. (the Island between NZ, Australia and Noumea)

bc

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Post #: 22
RE: map stuff - 6/7/2005 5:00:37 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi Andrew,

Norfolk Island is outside of your Malaria lines. However, it is a malaria base. You might want to look at this and see if you should move your malaria line a bit further south so it encompases Norfolk Is. (the Island between NZ, Australia and Noumea)

bc


Good catch. Norfolk should NOT be malarial. I will see what I can do - if anything - to make it non-malarial. Failing that I will revise the malaria line in the next map revision.

Andrew

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Post #: 23
RE: map stuff - 6/7/2005 6:10:39 AM   
jwilkerson


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From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi Andrew,

Norfolk Island is outside of your Malaria lines. However, it is a malaria base. You might want to look at this and see if you should move your malaria line a bit further south so it encompases Norfolk Is. (the Island between NZ, Australia and Noumea)

bc


Good catch. Norfolk should NOT be malarial. I will see what I can do - if anything - to make it non-malarial. Failing that I will revise the malaria line in the next map revision.

Andrew


Absolutely must be fixed !!! If Colleen McCullough gets Malaria before she writes the Caesar series ... then one of my most favorite groups of Novels might never be written !!!



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Post #: 24
Malarial bases - 6/7/2005 1:42:34 PM   
Captain Cruft


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From: England
Status: offline 		Which bases are malarial is decided by a combination of hex ranges and some hard-wired location slot numbers. Mr Frag posted the actual code snippet somewhere but I attach it here anyway.



Attachment (1)

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Post #: 25
RE: Malarial bases - 6/7/2005 3:46:29 PM   
Andrew Brown


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From: Hex 82,170
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Which bases are malarial is decided by a combination of hex ranges and some hard-wired location slot numbers. Mr Frag posted the actual code snippet somewhere but I attach it here anyway.




I have that code snippet as well, and it looks like I can't make Norfolk Island non-malarial. Oh well...


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Post #: 26
RE: map stuff - 6/7/2005 3:51:48 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

That was built during the war? That will teach me to use a '43 map.

Where do you find guage and single-double track info? I can find that sort of thing for Europe but not for SEA.

All i know is it took 3 weeks for a unit with full supply to get to Victoria Point and it is going to take 5 weeks to get out of VP.
It did not take this long in the origional and i just think 3 weeks is too long.

Mike


My apologies Mike, I don't have specific information about the track gauge, but if it was built by the Japanese during the war, then I expect that it was narrow gauge, like the Burma railway was. I can't imagine the Japanese building standard gauge double track lines at that time and place.

It is true that getting in/out of VP takes a long time currently, but if we add a transport link to the hex then it will only take one day or so at the rail movement rate(for moving to VP at least. Moving from VP will still be slow), which I think is even worse. I don't yet see an easy solution for this one.



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Post #: 27
RE: map stuff - 6/18/2005 6:58:18 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Andrew,

first of all: Thanks for your amazing map!

I know that many bases were added and maybe adding even more would be too much out of various reasons, but nevertheless I would like to propose some more:

In India:

Poona, located two inland hexes SE of Bombay. Was a big city and major military base during WW2 (and before). Nice (and realistic) fall-back position and airfield location [of limited capacity (1), maximum buildable to (4)] and some industry was located there.

Cuttack, located inland to the south of Jamshedpur. Some industry (capital of Orissa and Bihar), important city at that time [limited capacity AF as Poona]

Btw, I hate that Yanam was choosen as port location by the designers. Never understood this choice (was even a French enclave then and I don't think that it was a location for anything of importance during WW2). Vizagapatam (one hex NE) would have been a more plausible choices because it had a decent port and one of the biggest RAF airbases was build in the vicinity (quite interesting choice, as there had been no AF before).

Another thing: No bases (or beaches) for Picton and Invercargill in NZ?

K

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Post #: 28
RE: map stuff - 6/20/2005 11:51:41 AM   
Pascal_slith


Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline 		Andrew,

have you tried to get the CD or DVD set of National Geographic maps? They have some excellent pre-war and wartime maps of Southeast Asia. A very good one is the Philippines in 1945. Almost 100% 1941's situation. Other maps of the area quite good too. These maps may resolve quite a few issues.

Check their website. www.nationalgeographic.com

Regards,

Pascal

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(


(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 29
RE: map stuff - 6/20/2005 3:04:58 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal

Andrew,

have you tried to get the CD or DVD set of National Geographic maps? They have some excellent pre-war and wartime maps of Southeast Asia. A very good one is the Philippines in 1945. Almost 100% 1941's situation. Other maps of the area quite good too. These maps may resolve quite a few issues.

Check their website. www.nationalgeographic.com

Regards,

Pascal


Hi Pascal,

Actually I did buy their CD set while working on the first version of my map last year. It is an excellent collection. I mainly relied on their China, India, SE Asia and Pacific maps, though. I didn't make good use of the Philippines ones. I will take a look at them when doing the next map revision.

By the way - thanks again for your Pacific base data. I relied on it quite a bit when doing my base revisions.

Andrew

_____________________________

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website


(in reply to Pascal_slith)
Post #: 30
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