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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Show Stoppers?

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Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 4:35:00 AM

bradclark1

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

This is not meant to be a flame war starter.
I've been thinking of getting this game but because of the price I want to make sure I'm not blowing it so I have a few questions.
Are the problems with the CAP and the B17's show stoppers? To me the aircraft are a big part of the game. If the aircraft are messed up operations wise doesn't this have an overall impact on the game?
Because of the size of the game does it get difficult to keep pace with what is happening and where it's happening, or put another way does the inventory get so big you can't keep up with what you have and what you are trying to do?
Are there any other how stoppers?
I have seven other Matrix titles just to show I'm not fishing.

Thanks,
Brad

Post #: 1

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 4:54:44 AM

scout1

Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline

Depends who you ask. Some will say certainly, others will say go for it. frankly, I'm in the go for it group. It is a game, won't ever live up to everyones expectation. Enjoy the game and play away ....

(in reply to bradclark1)

Post #: 2

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 4:56:40 AM

ADavidB

Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradclark1

This is not meant to be a flame war starter.
I've been thinking of getting this game but because of the price I want to make sure I'm not blowing it so I have a few questions.
Are the problems with the CAP and the B17's show stoppers? To me the aircraft are a big part of the game. If the aircraft are messed up operations wise doesn't this have an overall impact on the game?
Because of the size of the game does it get difficult to keep pace with what is happening and where it's happening, or put another way does the inventory get so big you can't keep up with what you have and what you are trying to do?
Are there any other how stoppers?
I have seven other Matrix titles just to show I'm not fishing.

Thanks,
Brad

There are no "show stoppers" in the game. There are a number of things which are designed "oddly" to say the least, and other things that don't necessarily work the way that "common sense" might expect them to work. But you can learn to work around all of the existing "oddness" in the game and still enjoy it immensely.

If you train your pilots well you will get better results than if you send them in to battle green. If you send escorts along with your bombers, your bombers will do better than if they were on their own. The air model doesn't simulate the actual air war of the time well, but much of that is because the players can and always do play unhistorically - mainly by massing huges numbers of planes in a way that was rarely used in the real War.

You need to develop a personal "system" for keeping track of things in the game. For example, I go through my bases and forces by geographic region each turn and adjust things as I feel the need.

WitP is a Gary Grigsby game, with all the idiosyncracies of all of Gary's games. Some times you will sit back in total amazement and admiration at what he has accomplished - other times you will be unable to come up with enough swear words to describe how your frustration really feels concerning some totally inexplicable design decision that Gary made.

Go buy it, you won't regret it.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to bradclark1)

Post #: 3

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 5:33:24 AM

Burzmali

Posts: 312
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Boston
Status: offline

If you can deal with a game that is heavy on the micromanagement and quirky on the realism you should give it a look. Don't expect to be able to convince your forces to act historically. Don't think of it as a game about WWII, think of it as a wargame involving all the forces (give or take) that were involved in the PTO.

(in reply to ADavidB)

Post #: 4

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 5:51:32 AM

sfbaytf

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline

WitP has alot of problems besides the already mentioned bomber stuff. Auto supply is broken, movement in China is hosed and the allied replay doesn't always work. There are some other abnormalaties.

Yet I can't stop playing. If you're playing just against the AI you may be disappointed. If you do get the game, which I would still recommend inspite of the bugs-in the hope they someday will be fixed, then do youself a favor and get into a PBEM game. I really rocks and is fun as hell.

I have 2 PBEM games going on as well as a 43 campaign game against the AI where I'm playing Japan. Since things are stacked against me it's more of a challenge.

(in reply to bradclark1)

Post #: 5

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 8:11:56 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

Keep in mind that these "Show stopping" CAP vs B17 fights are only showing up in those with absolutely huge numbers of aircraft. In my games, where most airstrikes involve only two or three squadrons on each side, the loss numbers are much, much lower - say 42 B17s met by 26 A6M2s, 3 b17s lost to 1 A6M2. When you recall that except for the late war carrier battles and B29 raids, the numbers of aircraft involved in any combat in this theatre were much smaller than the numbers wer are seeing in the AARs, you begin to think that maybe the game wasn't designed to handle those numbers (if only it didn't give us so many to use...). Just a thought...

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to sfbaytf)

Post #: 6

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 8:48:10 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

If you train your pilots well you will get better results than if you send them in to battle green. If you send escorts along with your bombers, your bombers will do better than if they were on their own.

Dave Baranyi

This advice is good, but worthless. Targets that need striking are out of range of "fighter escort". And in the real war, flights of 3-12 B-17's/24's made attacks that the Japanese couldn't stop even in the earlies stages of the war. In the game they will be shredded.

On the other hand, the Allies recieve a large excess of B-17's in the game, and so are able to mass 100+ A/C bomber strikes more reminicent of the ETO. Which are often deadly to targets, but can still be shredded by Japanese fighters in numbers.

This is the game's version of "balance". If you find it acceptable, buy it by all means. There are some good things in it as well, but be prepared for a number of "how the he11
did that happen?" reactions while you are learning.

_____________________________

(in reply to ADavidB)

Post #: 7

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 4:25:25 PM

Iridium

Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline

Biggest problem that cuases all of the air to air combat issues in my book is the fact that fighters have unlimited gun ammo. No matter how small the caliber gun, if you fill an aircraft full of enough bullets it's going to damage something important...

I think people aren't thinking of this enough in terms of air combat. Then again people get far too excited about the issue to begin with...

Edit: Oh and BTW, love the game. Even with it's oddness. It is the only game in town unless you go back to the SNES and PTO 2 from Koei...and that doesn't really come as close either.

Which reminds me...anyone here play Romance of the Three Kingdoms (Koei)?...it's based on China's civil war after the fall of the 2nd Han dynasty, big story attributed to Luo Guanzhong. Basically, the ~2000 page book is high school reading for the Chinese iirc. Great book anyhow...

/threadjackingend

< Message edited by Iridium -- 6/9/2005 4:34:52 PM >

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Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

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Post #: 8

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 6:18:46 PM

sfbaytf

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Joined: 4/13/2005
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yes I remember Romance of three Kindoms. Sam company that put out Nobinaga's Ambition. Great games. Didn't they do a remake?

(in reply to Iridium)

Post #: 9

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 6:31:04 PM

Iridium

Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline

Yeah, the 10th remake is about to come out for PS2 on the 15th. ROTK is a series that I have played since the original, it has improved greatly over the years.

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Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

(in reply to sfbaytf)

Post #: 10

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 6:35:12 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Brad,

This game has so much detail that there is always going to be (and has always been) some kind of gripe thread going on. You can call it "flavor of the month", I suppose. I think a couple of months ago people were talking about the B-17 being indestructible. This is not to minimize the fact that a lot of great feedback comes from these threads and is incorporated in updates, fixes and upgrades that are still ongoing nearly a year after release. Please note that, love it or "hate" it, the community is very active, very involved and the number of AARs still going is phenomenal. You won't be bored nor will you feel that your money was not well-spent, IMHO.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Iridium)

Post #: 11

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 6:41:27 PM

Bradley7735

Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

Hi Brad,

Take it from your evil twin. You'll love this game. Especially if you own other Matrix games. Look in other sections of the main forum. WITP is THE game that sets the bar in military games. As everyone else says, there are issues with the game. But, none that are show stoppers. I haven't purchased a game in a year. Thanks to WITP. (although I will buy GGWAW as soon as I can get to Comp USA or Fry's)

Brad Clark

PS, you should change your username. Everytime I see a post from you (not very often), I think "I don't remeber posting that! Oh yeah, that's not me."

_____________________________

The older I get, the better I was.

(in reply to bradclark1)

Post #: 12

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/9/2005 10:10:18 PM

Graymane

Posts: 520
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi Brad,

Take it from your evil twin. You'll love this game. Especially if you own other Matrix games. Look in other sections of the main forum. WITP is THE game that sets the bar in military games. As everyone else says, there are issues with the game. But, none that are show stoppers. I haven't purchased a game in a year. Thanks to WITP. (although I will buy GGWAW as soon as I can get to Comp USA or Fry's)

Brad Clark

PS, you should change your username. Everytime I see a post from you (not very often), I think "I don't remeber posting that! Oh yeah, that's not me."

Just download it :) Btw, if you really, really like WiTP I think you'll probably be disappointed with WaW. Maybe there is a demo for it, I can't remember.

(in reply to Bradley7735)

Post #: 13

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/10/2005 12:10:42 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Brad,
This game has so much detail that there is always going to be (and has always been) some kind of gripe thread going on. You can call it "flavor of the month", I suppose. - Erik

A few other "favorites" that come to mind:

1) Your supply getting up and walking away, often towards the enemy, and rarely where you want it to go.

2) The unstoppable "naval bombardment missions" which time out in the game like a drive-by shooting, but do more damage to the whole hex than a dozen major air strikes.

3) Japan being able to over-run Russia (while fighting the WITP) because the designers "nailed" all the Soviet troops to the ground until they are attacked.

4) Japan being able to over-run China in a few months (while fighting the WITP) even though IRL she hadn't been able to do so in 4 years (while not fighting anyone else).

Those are just top of the head rememberences. And Eric is right, there is a lot of good stuff in there as well. And you won't be bored. Mad as he11 on occasion, but not bored.

_____________________________

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Post #: 14

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/10/2005 8:57:35 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Mike,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
1) Your supply getting up and walking away, often towards the enemy, and rarely where you want it to go.

Hadn't see this one yet!

quote:

2) The unstoppable "naval bombardment missions" which time out in the game like a drive-by shooting, but do more damage to the whole hex than a dozen major air strikes.

The guadalcanal night bombardment by the Japanese (battleships) brings to mind an example where this was just about exactly how it worked. Ships that steam in and bombard overnight will be far away in the morning.

quote:

3) Japan being able to over-run Russia (while fighting the WITP) because the designers "nailed" all the Soviet troops to the ground until they are attacked.

I saw the AAR on this as well - it's something that could be adjusted but it remains a trade-off for Japan in terms of focus and can still cause the Japanese some pain. It's also easily addressed with a house rule - realistically though it should be harder for Japan to pull this off, at least against a PBEM opponent.

quote:

4) Japan being able to over-run China in a few months (while fighting the WITP) even though IRL she hadn't been able to do so in 4 years (while not fighting anyone else).

This has been tweaked several times and I'd be interested to see a new AAR to see if this is still as possible as it was before.

quote:

Those are just top of the head rememberences. And Eric is right, there is a lot of good stuff in there as well. And you won't be bored. Mad as he11 on occasion, but not bored.

Yep, there have been plenty more "big threads" and most have their trade-offs and folks on both sides of the issue. Ultimately though, we keep coming back and I mean that as a player as well as in my official capacity. I can't stop playing WitP personally and over the course of a full game have had so few issues (granted, I try to play somewhat historically) of any significant in balance or bugs that I consider it one of the all-time great wargames I've ever played. I would not personally hesitate, Matrix connection or not, to recommend this to any hard core wargamer.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 15

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/10/2005 9:09:44 AM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

China ,after 1.4, is no longer a walk in the park for Japan. I do not see any AAR, started after 1.4 , where japan is still rockin' all over china..
I say that the band new naval pilot bug is somehow a pain...but for sure not a game breaker, so i can firmly say that this game is the best wargame ever published. It never happened to me to play a game for exactly a year, day after day.

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Post #: 16

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/10/2005 5:53:20 PM

Bradley7735

Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Mike,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
1) Your supply getting up and walking away, often towards the enemy, and rarely where you want it to go.

Hadn't see this one yet!

Regards,

- Erik

Hi Erik,

Here's an example of what Mike's talking about. Lets say you unload 10,000 supply at Port Moresby in Dec 41. Japan hasn't captured Buna yet. It's very likely that several thousand supply will move from PM to Buna, even though there are no units at Buna. Then Japan captures Buna and your supply that was meant for PM. It's definitely frustrating. There are other places where this happens. To me, it's not a show stopper. But, it is why some people have asked for a toggle on a base to allow supply to enter or leave via overland shipments (I'd like a toggle as well, but understand the financial drawbacks of adding more features to WITP).

Anyway, just wanted to explain Mike's comment.

bc

_____________________________

The older I get, the better I was.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 17

RE: Show Stoppers? - 6/10/2005 6:11:32 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradclark1

This is not meant to be a flame war starter.
I've been thinking of getting this game but because of the price I want to make sure I'm not blowing it so I have a few questions.
Are the problems with the CAP and the B17's show stoppers? To me the aircraft are a big part of the game. If the aircraft are messed up operations wise doesn't this have an overall impact on the game?
Because of the size of the game does it get difficult to keep pace with what is happening and where it's happening, or put another way does the inventory get so big you can't keep up with what you have and what you are trying to do?
Are there any other how stoppers?
I have seven other Matrix titles just to show I'm not fishing.

Thanks,
Brad

Bradclark1,(can there be a "2"?),
Of course you are fishing Brad,look at the number of active players and posters in this forum.Must be some interest,huh??
If the real question is:"Should I buy this game?"
Then the real answer is:YES!
Do not bother getting up,don't have to change into fresh underwear or put your shoes on,just put your bag of Frito's down for a minute,open your wallet(next to the bed),and order the game with your credit card.
No Brad,really,I mean it..Right now Brad..We can see you Brad....
You need to do this RIGHT NOW Brad...
We are watching you......
If you are willing to purchase this game for yourself,you will automatically gain bragging rights to having the best darned Pacific war game in the world.
Period!..
BTW,when I said to put the bag of Frito's down,I did not say you had to move the bottle of muscatel from between your legs..You can still balance it there,it won't go anywhere,and yes,Brad,we really can see you!!!!!
Now,go get that game!!!!!