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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> RE: house rules

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RE: house rules - 6/8/2005 4:54:28 PM

tabpub

Posts: 1019
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: The Greater Chicagoland Area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

quote:

Which would put the 40mm Bofors well within its 4000 yard effective range over the CV.

Dont forget to think in 3 dimentional terms. You not only have 4000 yards distance from the target, but up as well. So as you move away from the target (ie CV) you not only increase range by the distance away from the CV, but add some for the altitude of the A/C also (A squared plus B squared equals C squared). Plus you are also adding deflection (ie the angle to the A/C from the firing ship) and as deflection angle increases the odds of hitting frop dramatically. Thus the reason for putting a high AA value ship like South Dakota in the core to begin with.

First off, the supporting ships are at 2000 yards, not 4000.
Second, you want to hit the planes at ...say 6000 feet above the carrier, that is 2000 yards also.
Third, after doing the Pythagorean thing to the numbers (sorry haven't slept all night....) that gives you something like 2828 yards...or less than 9000 feet.

And that's to hit the plane well above its release point. And you don't need proximity fuses. Its like a bunch of fire hoses streaming lead to a point. I know that I would not be too eager to fly through it personally. Based on the before and after figures of Japanese planes available at this particular battle, there were not a lot of operational planes on their decks afterward. And that was with a CAP that didn't operate as planned due to confusion and inexperience.

So, I guess the way that I look at it is this:

5" DP go after big groups at long range to break up formations and damage/disrupt the attackers.

20mm is like the "Gatling" type point defense of the modern vessel; last line of self defense and doesnt help others much except occasionally.

40mm is the real workhorse; good ROF, range that can cover other ships, a round that will do a lot of damage when it hits..etc. Heck, still in use now and I read that Bofors still has upgrade packages for WWII vintage weapons that are in use.

See you all around and pardon me if I blabbered on, I am beat and am off to beed

_____________________________

Sing to the tune of "Man on the Flying Trapeze"
..Oh! We fly o'er the treetops with inches to spare,
There's smoke in the cockpit and gray in my hair.
The tracers look fine as a strafin' we go.
But, brother, we're TOO God damn low...

(in reply to Yamato hugger)

Post #: 31

RE: house rules - 6/8/2005 11:33:17 PM

Yamato hugger

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub
First off, the supporting ships are at 2000 yards, not 4000.

Second, you want to hit the planes at ...say 6000 feet above the carrier, that is 2000 yards also.
Third, after doing the Pythagorean thing to the numbers (sorry haven't slept all night....) that gives you something like 2828 yards...or less than 9000 feet.

Who said the supporting ships were at 4000 yards? I said the screening vessals were 2 to 3000 yards from the core (a few posts up). I was responding to his post saying the 40mm had a range of 4000 yards (which I believe is accurate).

quote:

So, I guess the way that I look at it is this:

5" DP go after big groups at long range to break up formations and damage/disrupt the attackers.

20mm is like the "Gatling" type point defense of the modern vessel; last line of self defense and doesnt help others much except occasionally.

40mm is the real workhorse; good ROF, range that can cover other ships, a round that will do a lot of damage when it hits..etc. Heck, still in use now and I read that Bofors still has upgrade packages for WWII vintage weapons that are in use.

See you all around and pardon me if I blabbered on, I am beat and am off to beed

Yes, all more or less exactly what I said. I guess the one thing you said that I only implied was that the 5" wasnt used for day to day firing vs low numbers of A/C. Only against large formations to break them up (wasnt really practical to use vs individual A/C). Which all of this boiled down gets back to what I said originally. That only (really) 12 to 15 ships should actually get to fire AA at incomming strikes.

Edit: Just looked back and I had said "usually 3000 yards". I ment to say 2 to 3000 yards". I was tired also.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 6/8/2005 11:36:03 PM >

(in reply to tabpub)

Post #: 32

RE: house rules - 6/9/2005 12:57:18 AM

Oldsweat

Posts: 79
Joined: 4/23/2005
Status: offline

Does the game reflect the influence of different formations and their impact on things like AAW and ASW? If memory serves (my references are 1500 miles away, in Austin) during the initial months off the war the formations in the CVBG tended to be column and line formations, with the supporting vessels arranged in linear formations relative to the carrier, based on the earlier line-of-battle formations (somewhere in my collection of junk I have an aerial photograph of a carrier group at sea off the West coast circa 1940 and remember the ships being in a line of columns, in other words several short columns paralell to the carriers course at various intervals, since many of the ships were just barely in frame it probably wasn't the just usual end-of-the-cruise PAO shot but a normal fleet formation). If I am not mistaken the modern sector and station "pinwheel" formation, with it's improved distribution of firepower (the older formations were organised mostly to enhance either visual search or broadside concentration) didn't come about until after Midway.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)

Post #: 33

RE: house rules - 6/9/2005 1:08:25 AM

Oldsweat

Posts: 79
Joined: 4/23/2005
Status: offline

Another factor would also be the presence of things like CIC and other plotting centers within the ship. A CIC/Gunplot/Sky1,2,3,4 type setup will produce a far more effective AAA (or pretty much anything else) than will individual fire control of mounts, especially once radar is introduced. (I got a kick out of Luke and the gang using vertical plots and NC-2s in Starwars, apparently the Rebellion can't afford NTDS let alone AEGIS). Assignment of warfare commanders/coordinators would also be a major influence in the efectivenss of weaponry. I'm not sure when GCIC/RATC/CATC and so forth were implemented but am fairly confident that it was in place by the time the first Essexes were commissioned. This would improve fighter effectivenss alone by orders of magnitude.

(in reply to Oldsweat)

Post #: 34

RE: house rules - 6/9/2005 5:11:21 AM

Yamato hugger

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Joined: 10/5/2004
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I have no idea what Jap tactics were at the start of the war. I know at Midway they used the circular formation. The US used the circular formation at Coral Sea, and of course ever after. Tillman didnt detail the formations used on the Marshall raids prior to Coral Sea.

(in reply to Oldsweat)

Post #: 35

RE: house rules - 6/9/2005 7:10:31 AM

1275psi

Posts: 7979
Joined: 4/17/2005
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Just to drag back to original topic

Our house rules - which are working very well

No night bombing airfield until 44 (i think)
6 ship asw
max 6 ship jap convoy escort
In china, must have 50 preperation points before a unit can assualt a city hex

The asw war is now very realistic, and china is a stalemate just like real life

We have an un official one too - we treat our ships as if our sons were onboard them. I also as japan always have, or try to have aircover for any invasion (sometimes it don't fly

)

game is very historical at the moment - and we truly are faced with same questions yammato and nimitz and co faced in mid 42

Plus its great fun too

(in reply to tabpub)

Post #: 36

RE: house rules - 6/9/2005 7:30:49 AM

Ddog

Posts: 230
Joined: 2/17/2005
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

Just to drag back to original topic

Our house rules - which are working very well

No night bombing airfield until 44 (i think)
6 ship asw
max 6 ship jap convoy escort
In china, must have 50 preperation points before a unit can assualt a city hex

The asw war is now very realistic, and china is a stalemate just like real life

We have an un official one too - we treat our ships as if our sons were onboard them. I also as japan always have, or try to have aircover for any invasion (sometimes it don't fly)

game is very historical at the moment - and we truly are faced with same questions yammato and nimitz and co faced in mid 42

Plus its great fun too

I understand that many people in this forum are "historical" buffs, and I respect that. I wonder if the Japs will win the war talked about above. If I wanted to see everything go down the way it happened, I would have bought "WitP the Movie". The great thing about this game is the PBEM feature. I'm not fighting Yamato or Nimitz, I'm fighting Roger and James, with the same resources available back then. They aren't going to get "doctrine" from me. They're going to get my "total war" and "fight to the last" tatics. If one of them places 5 or 6 subs outside Tokyo Harbor, I'm going to counter with a large ASW TF. You get the picture. Just throwing in my 2 cents for what is worth. I'm beginning to think I'm a minority

(in reply to 1275psi)

Post #: 37

RE: house rules - 6/9/2005 7:38:52 AM

rogueusmc

Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline

It's like finding a soulmate...find one that you are compatible with...

Like Socrates said..."My advice to you is to marry...if you find a good wife, you will be happy...if not, you will become a philosopher"

_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

(in reply to Ddog)

Post #: 38

RE: house rules - 6/10/2005 2:03:44 PM

CGSailor

Posts: 11
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline

I would be cautious in using the photos as evidence of what operational formations looked like. For instance, if the tf was returning to port, they would probably shake out of their operational formation into an administrative one. Destroyers would form up by division to proceed together to their mooring or anchorage sites, etc. Also, if the photo was to be a publicity photo, the ships would tidy themselves up into compact orderly formations to look good for the camera, and the result would be highly artificial, and not reflect operational conditions.

I was in USN in the 70's & 80's, and we often posed for the camera. On a deployment to the Northern Arabian Sea, the inchoppers and outchoppers rendezvoused near Madagascar where we "posed" for photos of a 3 CV task force, which was not at all how we operated in real life.

(in reply to Oldsweat)

Post #: 39

RE: house rules - 6/14/2005 5:29:38 AM

1275psi

Posts: 7979
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ddog

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

Just to drag back to original topic

Our house rules - which are working very well

No night bombing airfield until 44 (i think)
6 ship asw
max 6 ship jap convoy escort
In china, must have 50 preperation points before a unit can assualt a city hex

The asw war is now very realistic, and china is a stalemate just like real life

We have an un official one too - we treat our ships as if our sons were onboard them. I also as japan always have, or try to have aircover for any invasion (sometimes it don't fly)

game is very historical at the moment - and we truly are faced with same questions yammato and nimitz and co faced in mid 42

Plus its great fun too

I understand that many people in this forum are "historical" buffs, and I respect that. I wonder if the Japs will win the war talked about above. If I wanted to see everything go down the way it happened, I would have bought "WitP the Movie". The great thing about this game is the PBEM feature. I'm not fighting Yamato or Nimitz, I'm fighting Roger and James, with the same resources available back then. They aren't going to get "doctrine" from me. They're going to get my "total war" and "fight to the last" tatics. If one of them places 5 or 6 subs outside Tokyo Harbor, I'm going to counter with a large ASW TF. You get the picture. Just throwing in my 2 cents for what is worth. I'm beginning to think I'm a minority

No, japan aint going to win this game at all ( maybe if I had not stuffed up in the phillipines ) but its not the destination for me, its the journey
And no, it has not been a historical re run at all.
The absolutely most important thing on such a major committment as this monster is, is to be very, very sure of your opponent wants, playing styles and inclinations before you start, or you set yourself up for major dissapointment down the track.
I would love to see the jap player drop out rate come this christmas as most games power into 1943

.
personally the major attraction of writing AARs, and reading of same, is not to see how others play, or the glory of "I just whipped so and so", but to show/see who are the stayers - so we know who to play next.

(not that Im likely to change opponents now - Ive found great ones, and they're mine, all mine I tell ya!)
I can be a very jealous b@#$#@tch

(in reply to Ddog)

Post #: 40

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> RE: house rules

Page: << < prev 1 [2]