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Canadians not taken serious!!

 
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Canadians not taken serious!! - 6/27/2000 8:21:00 PM   
thor

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Vancouver, B.C.
Status: offline 		It seems very strange that every wargame (except ASL which gives elite squads to all Canadians except newbies) doesn't give Canucks there due reward. Most German officers regarded Canadians as there toughest opponents in the war. Not only was the Canadian army mostly volunteer but they also fought in almost every major battle in the West Front (with the hardest initial objectives too!!!) I don't want to sound like a Canadian patriot, but I think they need an overhaul. ___________________________________________ Another Crazy Canuck

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- 6/27/2000 9:24:00 PM   
Charles22

 

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		I always heard the Aussies were the toughest.

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Post #: 2
- 6/27/2000 9:32:00 PM   
talon

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 5/16/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Well I would consider the Poles the bravest . They were the best pilots in the battle of britain and the where brave enough to fight even without a strategic leadership . But I must admind that the Canadians could be represented more than they are . And troops who are brave enough to land at Dieppe although they know that the British consider there troops as to valuable must be really though

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Post #: 3
- 6/27/2000 10:09:00 PM   
Tankhead

 

Posts: 1352
Joined: 6/21/2000
From: Yukon Territory Canada
Status: offline 		Hi Thor! If you go in the scenario download there's a good scen.. about Canadians. It's call THE Skink by Ed "moonwolf" Mortimer Tankhead

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Tankhead


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Post #: 4
- 6/28/2000 1:31:00 AM   
3rd Recon

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: ypsilanti, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Go get'em Thor. I reenact WWII with the Queens Own Rifles of Canada. I too have read that German Officers considered the Canadians the toughest troops they faced. I believe Patton said "Thank God for the Canadians" Cant remeber where I heard that. The QoRC their Brigade and the other 2 Brigades were the only units to achieve their D-Day objectives but since most contemporary history is writen by the English and Americans, you don't hear about it. Don't worry guys, not trying to start a dust up here...I am after all an American myself, but I think that Canadians don't get the credit they deserve. Just my 2 cents. 3rd Recon Semper FI

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Post #: 5
- 6/28/2000 4:14:00 AM   
Desert Fox

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ohio, that is all I can say.
Status: offline 		Well, I always thought that Canadians were Americans. At any rate, Canada doesn't go flaunting their military might or military history, no matter how good it is or was, so its no wonder no one has ever heard of the 'Canadian Army'. Britain and the States, however, have traditionally prided their excellent military and military history.

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Post #: 6
- 6/28/2000 4:27:00 AM   
Moonwolf

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 6/6/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Tankhead: Hi Thor! If you go in the scenario download there's a good scen.. about Canadians. It's call THE Skink by Ed "Moonwolf" Mortimer Tankhead
Thanks for the plug, Tankhead. Just to let you know, I've got a series of Canadian battles on the drawing board -- in Sicily, Italy and the Western Front. I have to agree with Thor in that they were often given crucial objectives (and that continued into the Korean War), and they often had extraordinary results against well-equipped and/or elite German units. Hang on a bit and you'll have some scenarios -- I don't want to rush them, I'd rather get each one done just right.

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Ed Mortimer Meglio un Giorno da Leone

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Post #: 7
- 6/28/2000 5:07:00 AM   
Infanterie

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 6/18/2000
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Guys, guys... you are all wrong! The bravest men? I have one word for you: Finland. *bangs his chest* --Infanterie, a crazy Finn

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"The bravery of being out of range..."

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Post #: 8
- 6/28/2000 5:38:00 AM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline 		The Canadian military doesn't blow its own horn - but when the fighting starts - watch out. It's always the quiet ones you have to watch out for. Who can forget Vimy Ridge in WWI? For two years British and French couldn't take it. Canadians took it in one day (and suffered 10,000 casualties). All in a day's work. Throughout the War, the Allies used the Canadians as shock troops. When the Germans knew they were facing Canadian troops, they knew they were in for the fight of their lives. The Canadians were never known to retreat. In WWII Canada had 1,000,000 citizens under arms (out of a population of only 11,000,000!) That's 10% of the population. By the end of the war, Canada had the third largest navy in the world! It even had aircraft carriers! At least three come to mind including the Bonaventure. Even in the Vietnam War at least 50,000 Canadians volunteered for active service in the U.S. military. There were, and are, many brave citizens from all countries. I am not down-playing their role at all (it's just that you don't often hear much about Canada's role). It makes for fascinating reading. Hey Wild Bill, how about some scenarios based on the Canadians attacking and taking the heavily fortified Scheldt region in Holland? Now there was a battle. Canada lost 7,000 soldiers liberating Holland, and to this day, Holland celebrates it as "Liberation Day", and honours Canada for its role. It has to be seen to be believed. Don't mind me guys, I thought I'd give my fingers a little exercise on the keyboard. ------------------ A King Tiger can give you a definite edge... [This message has been edited by Von Rom (edited 06-27-2000).]

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Post #: 9
- 6/28/2000 8:42:00 AM   
Tankhead

 

Posts: 1352
Joined: 6/21/2000
From: Yukon Territory Canada
Status: offline 		Cool Moomwolf, I'll wait patiantly by the way Canadian Secret Weapon is awesome play the scenario 3 time with different result you really have to use youre forces the right way to win make a fellah think. Keep up the good work soldier. Tankhead

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Tankhead


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Post #: 10
- 6/28/2000 9:11:00 AM   
Moonwolf

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 6/6/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Tankhead: Cool Moomwolf, I'll wait patiantly by the way Canadian Secret Weapon is awesome play the scenario 3 time with different result you really have to use youre forces the right way to win make a fellah think. Keep up the good work soldier. Tankhead
Thanks for the good word, I needed it! Stuart Millis helped me a lot with his excellent playtest summary. I'll try to keep you working hard on the next one -- vs the Herman Goering Division . . . ------------------ Ed Mortimer Meglio un Giorno da Leone

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Ed Mortimer Meglio un Giorno da Leone

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Post #: 11
- 6/28/2000 9:42:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		If I am not mistaken, a Canadian worked on the OOB. What problem are you having with it? We have two Canucks here working, Frank Donati and Stuart Millis, and there may be others. So we do indeed give the Canucks their due. If this was an oversight we will correct it. Peace from south of the border...Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 12
- 6/28/2000 11:10:00 AM   
thor

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Vancouver, B.C.
Status: offline 		The Matrix staff did a wonderful job with the Canadian Armor and Artillery. It is the infantry ratings that I do not agree with. They should be on par with the British. We're not Colonials anymore!!! Great game! The ASL system hasn't left the shelf since the release of Ver1.

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Post #: 13
- 6/28/2000 11:57:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Touche, Thor! Point well taken! By default they and a few other nations should be higher. We'll see what we can do about that. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 14
- 6/28/2000 1:12:00 PM   
crazyivan

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		guys guys GUYS the truly tuffest unit to enter any ww2 front was th NEW ZEALANDERS we not only had Charles Upam winner of two vcs and was given a thrid but they thought that might be to much but there were countless times when kiwis one the day under appaling conditions and little supplys the maori battalion ran out of ammo agianst the elit german paras and got up did the haka a war dance and charged them with cold steel the master race fled. so there is many a tuff unit but for a country of only 3 million even less at that time we hold a loins share of the glory.

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Post #: 15
- 6/28/2000 6:37:00 PM   
Ahola

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/13/2000
From: Turku, Finland
Status: offline 		I'd say that Finns were pravest fighters on wwII scene Many other small country let Russians just walk to their country but Finland didn't and they pravely fought for their freedom against mighty Russia, first alone then with germans support.

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Post #: 16
- 6/28/2000 6:44:00 PM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Moonwolf: Thanks for the plug, Tankhead. Just to let you know, I've got a series of Canadian battles on the drawing board -- in Sicily, Italy and the Western Front. I have to agree with Thor in that they were often given crucial objectives (and that continued into the Korean War), and they often had extraordinary results against well-equipped and/or elite German units. Hang on a bit and you'll have some scenarios -- I don't want to rush them, I'd rather get each one done just right.
Hooray, hooray! Someone is developing scenarios about some of my favourite theaters and with some of my favourite troops as leading protagonists! I can't wait!!!!

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Fabs

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Post #: 17
- 6/28/2000 7:11:00 PM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		Canadians, Poles, Aussies... who was the bravest? A very difficult question. The armies fielded by the British Empire and its Commonwealth/Dominions were vast and varied. There were variances even within Divisions according to what time of the war one is looking at. The 7th Armored Division was one thing in North Africa and something else in North West Europe. This was due partly to the dramatic difference in the terrain and type of fighting and partly because the Division had been engaged longer than most other units, along with the 51st Highland Division (another subdued performer in Normandy) and the 50th Infantry division (fared rather better in Normandy, but had a role that was more centre stage). Indian, South Africans, New Zealanders, Gurkhas, Scots (arguably different from English troops)and Irish all fought alongside the English, covering themselves with distinction and occasionally falling short of expectations. In the Steel Panthers series there is a marked interest in all things German, with a resulting sharp focus on the different elements of the German Armed forces, but even here Victorhauser argued, IMO correctly, that too much emphasis was given to Waffen SS (and Fallschirmjaeger) and Wehrmacht elite units, which existed in abundance, (Grossdeutschland, Panzer Lehr and certain Panzer, Panzergrenadier and even Infanterie formations from time to time)do not get any attention. I believe that within the scope allowed by game design constraints it is difficult to accomodate everyone's preferences and, sometimes, prejudices. In the "Italian corner" for instance there is a strong body of opinion to the effect that Italian troops are very superficially represented as weak and brittle, where the reality at the tactical level was more complex. I have always solved the problem by hacking into the variables to model the troops I wanted to behave differently to my taste. This is laborious, but is the only way in which ultimately everyone can be pleased. If one designs scenarios for one's own use it is necessary to make many changes to the standard units available to model more realistic situations. Squads, platoons and companies were rarely homogenously at full strength. If you need to play around with the number of men, and sometimes the weaponry, take a little time to change units and leaders experience, morale and weapon skills values. You can achieve pretty much anything you like. This is what I love about this game system. I am not so sure about the behavioural characteristics that are coded into "country training" (in other words, will a high experience/morale Italian squad with a strong leader still rout more readily and perform more poorly than an equivalent German squad?). You can, of course, turn this off, but I am not sure that that would be altogether satisfactory. ------------------ Fabs [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited 06-28-2000).] [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited 06-28-2000).]

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Fabs

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Post #: 18
- 6/28/2000 10:19:00 PM   
Spunkgibbon

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 5/8/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by crazyivan: ... we hold a loins share of the glory.
Of course you mean 'lions'...?

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Post #: 19
- 6/29/2000 2:50:00 PM   
crazyivan

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Spunkgibbon: Of course you mean 'lions'...?
no we kiwis went for where it hurt most the balls that way it will take a man down no matter how big he is [This message has been edited by crazyivan (edited 06-29-2000).]

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"The best form of defence,is attack"

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Post #: 20
- 6/29/2000 5:22:00 PM   
Mike Knight

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 6/29/2000
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I think Rommel said, and I apologise to the people who know the correect quote, "Give me German armour, Italian Artillery and Australian Infantry and I will conquer the world" or words to that respect. Now in WWI among the Commonwealth, the Canadians were reckoned to be the most disciplined, the Aussies had the most flair and the Kiwis the most desirable combination of both. I suppose in short it is clear that all of these troops had their moments (good and bad)and any argument about who is the best could go around and around in circles. I suspect that the Dominian troops should be fairly even, and perhaps a tad better than the British (but often not as well equipped). As for the Finns....The Germans can thank them for teaching the Russians how to fight properly in winter.

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Post #: 21
- 6/29/2000 7:43:00 PM   
Ian

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 6/29/2000
From: Cowaramup, WA, Australia
Status: offline 		In a book written by Brigadier Desmond Young, simply entitled "Rommel", published in 1950 it says, and I quote.... "The Australians he considered rough, particularly with the Italians, but it was the sort of roughness which amused him and did not show "a bad heart." He ranked Austrlalians highly as individual fighting-men but thought that they were inclined to get out of hand.He would have liked a division of them but remarked that an army of Australians would not be an easy command. The South Africans he considered good material but too raw, though he gave credit to their armoured cars and acknowledged that they later fought very well at Alemein. For the New Zealanders he had a great and lasting admiration. They were, he always maintained to Alfred*, Aldinger* and others, the finest troops on our side. The British he respected - as promising amateurs. He even went so far as to admit that, for small, independent operations, requiring great personal initiative, such as those of the Long Range Desert Group and the SAS, they were better than the Germans, who would not have had the same confidence or shown so much enterprise far behind enemy lines........" * Manfreed was Rommel's son and Aldinger was Rommel's "Ordonnanzoffizier", a "combination of personnal assistant, camp commandant, ADC and private secretary" in France in 1940, in North Africa and in Normandy in 1944. He also served in the same battalion sa Rommel in the first world war. Sorry for the monologue.... By the way..I'm an Aussie

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Post #: 22
- 7/6/2000 7:11:00 AM   
jsaurman

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/28/2000
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		If anyone would like to help me, I would like to co-develop a scenerio based on Dieppe. I don't think I have time enough to devote to it, but if someone would split it with me 50-50 I think I could get it done. Let me know at jsaurman@hotmail.com

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Post #: 23
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