How is the FOG working?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

How is the FOG working?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Napoleonics] >> Crown of Glory >> How is the FOG working?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 2:01:07 AM

Domingo

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline

Surprise played a big role during the Napoleonic wars. Can we use the light cavalry to screen the bulk of our troops?

Post #: 1

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 4:01:07 AM

Uncle_Joe

Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

No, I dont believe that units block LOS per se. But if you could rout off enemy units before they spot your units you might be able to conceal some troops.

In practice though, you generally start pretty close in the tactical battles. So, you can see your enemy and vice versa except at night or in bad weather. You can use terrain to mask movements, but again, in practice this really only allows so much concealment.

Remember that the battles are on a divisional scale (ie, one unit = 1 division), so a lot of the tactical nuances are abstracted.

_____________________________

(in reply to Domingo)

Post #: 2

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 6:18:56 AM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domingo
Surprise played a big role during the Napoleonic wars. Can we use the light cavalry to screen the bulk of our troops?

Units do block line of sight. Units that are not under threat have an easier time changing formation (from column to line, for instance). So interposing light cavalry between your infantry and the enemy does work to keep your units from coming under fire while they can advance into position and enter formation.

Eric

(in reply to Domingo)

Post #: 3

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 6:35:28 AM

Uncle_Joe

Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

Do they block Line of Fire or Line of Sight or both? Ie..can you 'see' other units past another, but be unable to fire on them?

_____________________________

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 4

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 10:27:05 AM

Ralegh

Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

Units DO block line of sight (at their own level) - but players often don't really notice since the FOG represented on the map is your overall view of the battlefield, not the view of the active unit only. You can see the impact with either:
- as Eric suggested, interpose a unit to help the now-sheltered unit to change formation
- interpose a unit with less sighting capability: if it was right on the edge of your visibility you can see the FOG change

In practical terms, it feels like you have an overall visibility, coupled with per-unit LOS calcs when you try to shoot things - I am still sometimes surprised when I can't shoot 'around' a forest, or can shoot past the side of a hill.

Uncle_Joe - there is no concept of being able to see through a unit in COG. LoF and LoS are the same (except for range, of course) (except for howitzers, of course)

Domingo, to go back to your original question: most battlefields aren't quite smooth enough for this to be a usual tactic - normally someone can see from an observation post or a decent hill, giving you a view of the enemy. When looking from above, units don't screen line of sight. However whole armies can be hidden behind a ridgeline, and cause a very unpleasant surprise to someone who doesn't scout about a bit...

I have, however, had battles where my visibility was limited by either forests or the front units of the enemy, at least in certain parts of the battlefield. This is more likely when playing a cav-poor nation (since cav make great scouts).

< Message edited by RoseSolutions -- 6/26/2005 10:31:13 AM >

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh

(in reply to Domingo)

Post #: 5

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 6:39:49 PM

PeterF

Posts: 62
Joined: 8/10/2003
Status: offline

quote:

Surprise played a big role during the Napoleonic wars. Can we use the light cavalry to screen the bulk of our troops?

Are you speaking tactically or operationally? Napoleonic cavalry screens played, in veiling the Grande Armee's advance on the Danube, a major role in the campaigns of 1805 and 1809 . If CoG is unable to reproduce this effect on a strategic level this would, I believe, cast doubt on its claims as a simulation.

(in reply to Domingo)

Post #: 6

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 7:16:07 PM

Uncle_Joe

Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

PeterF:

My impression is that the scale of the strategic movement system generally precludes what you are looking for. Strategic movement is area based between provinces, so there is no operational movement. Armies move as a group, although you can move individual units.

That said, Cav has a higher 'initiative' when moving on the Strategic Map, so armies with Cav can often move further than regular armies. Since its a 'we-go' system, Cav armies will be able make more sudden movements that you have to wait to respond to, so in a sense, you are getting more 'surprise' feel out of the army. So, I'd say that there is definately a benefit for the Cav in that role. If you are trying to simulate Napoleon's maneuvering before Waterloo and whatnot, that seems to be done in the individual battles where you might be able to find a seam between Allied armies and exploit it.

_____________________________

(in reply to PeterF)

Post #: 7

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 8:07:26 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

It is the case that a unit can only shoot what it can also see on its own (excepting howitzers).

One of the areas in which I'd like to expand the engine is to implement more interface between the strategic level and the battlefield level. Our battles tend to start in the thick-of-things with units fairly close to the enemy; this was principly a design demand, to keep detailed battles shorter and more playable. We've discussed in future engines or expansions to allow the players to work in an intermediary scale that would come between the two levels we currently implement.

(in reply to Uncle_Joe)

Post #: 8

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/26/2005 9:39:15 PM

Uncle_Joe

Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

It is the case that a unit can only shoot what it can also see on its own (excepting howitzers).

One of the areas in which I'd like to expand the engine is to implement more interface between the strategic level and the battlefield level. Our battles tend to start in the thick-of-things with units fairly close to the enemy; this was principly a design demand, to keep detailed battles shorter and more playable. We've discussed in future engines or expansions to allow the players to work in an intermediary scale that would come between the two levels we currently implement.

That sounds like an interesting avenue to explore. I'm not sure that it would be playable in anything less than WitP time blocks though!

I think at some point the line has to be drawn between what is desirable in terms of simulation and what is feasible in terms of playability, especially if you intend to play it with multiple players.

I feel that CoG walks a pretty good line in this regard. As long as some of the nuances are accounted for, then the system is doing it's job (and I think the Leader and Cav intiatives as well as various 'upgrades' do a pretty good job of it).

_____________________________

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 9

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/27/2005 12:28:43 PM

Naomi

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline

CoG doesn't reproduce calvary's screening function. It's reasonable, coz we are to operate armies at a top view. (They can hardly be concealed as viewed from above, right?) :p

Kidding above. I am curious more about units' frontal LOS vs their flank/rear LOS. When an unit faces a direction, will the LOS before it be greater than that beside/behind it? If not so, how can an opposing force manage to outflank it?

*(~.~)*

(in reply to PeterF)

Post #: 10

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/27/2005 6:21:30 PM

Jordan

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline

I'd like to see something like this, i.e. an intermediate level where the manuevering capabilities of the "new" corps system (against the old linear system) are fully displayed. Generally, countires employing the corps system would be allowed the use of distributed manuever (with different points of entry on an "operational map") whereas those countries that don't would march in a unitary block.

A decent book is "Napoleon's Last Victory and the Emergence of Modern War" by Robert Epstein.

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 11

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/27/2005 6:25:37 PM

sol_invictus

Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

This might be implemented to a point. You can reinforce a battle with units in a neighboring province; I just don't know if having the Corps tech makes it more likely that the force will actually arrive in time to take part in the battle.

(in reply to Jordan)

Post #: 12

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/27/2005 6:44:27 PM

Jordan

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

This might be implemented to a point. You can reinforce a battle with units in a neighboring province

Yes, that's a good point. I think I had read something to this effect elsewhere.

quote:

I just don't know if having the Corps tech makes it more likely that the force will actually arrive in time to take part in the battle.

Given the structure of the game (that is, that the operational distributed manuever capabilities of the corps system do not seem to be represented - for the playablity reasons mentioned above), giving a better reinforcement capabilities to the counrty with a corps system would make sense.

Anyway, I have not played the game, so all my (implicit) assumptions above could be way off the mark. Whatever the case, from what I have seen I am very impressed and can't wait to play.

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 13

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/27/2005 10:47:27 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

There are corps and army units to which players attach their divisions. The corps represent something like the advanced corps de armee system, and so naturally France starts with many corps whereas other nations start the 1805 scenarios with armies.

Units in a corps have many enhanced abilities. One of the most prominent enhancements is that divisions attached to a corps arrive as reinforcements at twice the rate of divisions not attached to corps. This represents the superior reinforcement flexibility of the corps system.

Eric

(in reply to Jordan)

Post #: 14

RE: How is the FOG working? - 6/28/2005 6:13:53 AM

sol_invictus

Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

I knew you guys would be on top of this. God I want this game NOW!

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 15