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Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 2:17:04 AM

wodin

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Ok I presume WaW didnt make a the impact on the shop floor that was hoped for.

However I feel you need to change your policy here a little.

You should se how sales go online. The view the forum feedback. Then decide whether your going to go shp floor retail.

CoG is a perfect example. The game is geetig alot of praise. It also looks fanastic. I also believe it would be a good enough title to go retail.

The benifit here is you attract more people to wargames. You also attarct more people to Matrix and its games.

Just a thought

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 3:40:17 AM

ravinhood

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While I agree with you Wodin, too bad nowadays everything comes down to the bottom dollar. Retail just eats chunks of money out of the minor developers and publishers. Let me give you an example.

Royalties from a retail game might net the publishers/developers $5 to $10 a copy sold, while direct download or direct sales will net them $25 to $30 a copy sold, this on a $40 average game retail. Thus they would have to bring in 3x to 5x more customers from retail sales to even break even to the savings of direct download/direct purchase for them.

So, their new strategy is not to "increase" the wargamer population, but, to increase their bottom dollar. They can make more money now selling "less copies" (with increased prices like WitP) than before by staying strictly direct download/direct sales on most of their products. When they have a fairly easy game to play like GGWAW or a game like his that looks a lot like AXIS & ALLIES a very popular game even with its failings and faults, then once in awhile they will take a chance on retail of a game of its calibur to let the mainstream know they are still around. They'll probably take a hit to profits, but, it's a sort of rather cheap way to advertise themselves as well every once in awhile, since they will bring in some income on a game for sale than using just advertising alone.

The business philosophy is correct, but, of course I don't like it, because it forces me down an avenue of only one choice of receiving a product and it also practically eliminates any bargain bin prices on games that use direct sales direct downloads for quite awhile instead of immediate bargain bin prices on crappy games such as "Imperial Glory" which I have a listing that sold for $5.91 on ebay not long after release.

So, for me and many others that will follow, moving to the "mainstream" is the way to go for choice, and savings for the "customer" since it too is the bottom dollar when it comes to buying entertainment. It will be a sort of push to shove ordeal for years to come. Less and less product will be sold, but, profits will be higher for a time for the publishers/developers, and then the "retailer" will be the new one to suffer and perhaps go out of business due to low amount of product to display for purchase.

Direct download will be something else that hurts the PC industry in the long run as the amount of sales of product will go down even futher if more and more companies move to this approach for sales. Going by that only a smidgen of the buying public even own or use PC's for purchasing of product online. It still can't be the most trusted avenue of buying product since one is more open to being hacked and identity theft is a greater risk when you put your credit card information up online.

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 3:44:20 AM

Hanal

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Wodin, I'm just curious how you know that WaW did not have an impact on the shop floor?......Usually sales figures are kept close to the vest around here, so I'm wondering if what you suggested is in fact the case.....

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 5:29:47 AM

jungelsj_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

The business philosophy is correct, but, of course I don't like it, because it forces me down an avenue of only one choice of receiving a product and it also practically eliminates any bargain bin prices on games that use direct sales direct downloads for quite awhile instead of immediate bargain bin prices on crappy games such as "Imperial Glory" which I have a listing that sold for $5.91 on ebay not long after release.

The bottom line is that most of the products that matrix is putting up for DD would not have made any money in a box, period. Those are games you would never have seen if it was not for a direct download option. DD is simply a new way in which consumers can buy a product. It's creating a wider selection of choices for both the type of game I would like to buy and the way in which I can buy it. Never before in the wargame market have I seen a wider selection of PC wargames literally 15 minutes away from my harddrive. The prices have remained the same for me, and the developer is making more money off of the product in order to make more (and better) games.

quote:

Direct download will be something else that hurts the PC industry in the long run as the amount of sales of product will go down even futher if more and more companies move to this approach for sales. Going by that only a smidgen of the buying public even own or use PC's for purchasing of product online. It still can't be the most trusted avenue of buying product since one is more open to being hacked and identity theft is a greater risk when you put your credit card information up online.

You've totally lost me here. I can't comprehend why a new avenue of sale can lower the overall sale of a product. Did the sale of movies drop when DVD's came about? Did everyone have a dvd player? Did that gradually change over time as more people realized that the DVD was a better way to enjoy a movie? Did the customer benefit from having more than one way of buying a movie? Did the movie market lose sales because of dvd's?

< Message edited by molotov_billy -- 7/5/2005 5:33:44 AM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 8:04:38 AM

Sarge

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One word for ya iPOD

I hear a song I like ,I DD it for .99 cents not 15-20 bucks for the CD.
I see a game I like, I DD and am playing it with in the hour

Its a win win situation for the publisher,developer and customer.

< Message edited by Sarge -- 7/5/2005 8:12:23 AM >

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 8:44:11 AM

ilovestrategy

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Well if it will keep prices down I'm all for it. What happens if I get a new comp though, would I have to buy it all over again? I can only imagine my wife throwing a fit at me paying twice for the same game.

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 9:25:28 AM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy

The bottom line is that most of the products that matrix is putting up for DD would not have made any money in a box, period. Those are games you would never have seen if it was not for a direct download option. DD is simply a new way in which consumers can buy a product. It's creating a wider selection of choices for both the type of game I would like to buy and the way in which I can buy it. Never before in the wargame market have I seen a wider selection of PC wargames literally 15 minutes away from my harddrive. The prices have remained the same for me, and the developer is making more money off of the product in order to make more (and better) games.

I agree totally. Not only has the "shop" market for wargames dropped to a level where making a profit on a release is unlikely, the whole PC games market is following suit. Sure, there are still some massive sellers (Half-Life 2, RTW, Battlefield 2, etc) but everything else struggles. With the new generation of consoles (which - and I loath consoles - look flippin' awesome) it will just get worse... I don't think attracting more people to PC wargaming via shop releases is a realistic objective.

Direct download is a godsend for wargames fans, and fans of any niche genre of games. There are still plenty of people who want them, and soon virtually all of those will know where to come. Nobody will get rich, but with far greater revenue per sale using DD or direct sale the publishers probably maximise their profits, IMHO. I'd be surprised if Battlefront, HPS and Shrapnel don't move to download soon too; indeed in the case of HPS particularly I'm amazed they havn't already.

Quite apart from convenience, I view the present time as a golden era for computer wargamers. If you include the direct sales companies as well, when have we ever had such a huge choice or excellent quality before? Ten years ago you would jump on any shop-sold wargame just because it WAS a wargame. Now there are far more games than anyone could possibly have time to play.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 7/5/2005 9:26:26 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 10:17:09 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

Well if it will keep prices down I'm all for it. What happens if I get a new comp though, would I have to buy it all over again? I can only imagine my wife throwing a fit at me paying twice for the same game.

Burn a CD and keep your purchase /security key.

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 1:05:29 PM

Zap

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quote:

I don't think attracting more people to PC wargaming via shop releases is a realistic objective.

Unfortunate but I think true. I, until recently, was of the opinion that having the turn based wargame on the shelf would bring an increase in the numbers of new players. There may be a few new catches but not enough to warrant a gung ho shop policy. For this to happen a larger appeal for this type of game would have to appear.

I would speculate the niche game market realizes its increases through a one person at a time conquest. A friend tells a friend or some other publicity tactic gains a new purchaser. When I came back to gaming I new what I was looking for having been a wargamer from way back. I went to the retailer I searhed out what fit my needs. The regular Joe who buys games in general will not be so discerning when selecting from the shelves of a retailer.

Are WaW sales less than expected? Is less product being sold? The numbers is what is needed to get a handle on the direction of things. It was stated by someone above that numbers are closely guarded secret. So until numbers are known (is there a suorce or way to find that out?) we are just speculating.

I think having the DD is a positive solution for all involved.

The fact of the matter is that if our type of game had such wide appeal, retailers would be calling Matrix to find out when the next game was scheduled for release and not the other way around.

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 2:37:56 PM

wodin

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Iv just go a new PC.

All you have todo is go to order status. Then put in your email and either the last five digits of your card or order number and hey presto you can download again.

Ive had to download the HTTR strat guide a couple of times.

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 2:43:05 PM

wodin

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I may be wrong about WaW but Im just going by a previous posts.

However I do know it has come in fr alot of criticism. Hardly a good game to release to the shop floor. The opinon of MAtrix may not be to great in peoples eyes whose only experience of the m is WaW.

Crown and Glory has all those classic elements that would make it a good seller.

Look at EU!

This game would appeal just the same and EU was a very big seller I believe.

I really think it would do great going retail on a shop floor.

Only a very small bunch of people know about MAtrix website and the products they sell compared to other game companies.

An example is over at the Blitz forum. Someone met up with an old friend and mentioned the PzC games. His friend had never heard of them. Infact he didnt know you could get games like that anymore. He was very excited when he heard about what they were about and how they played and went home and purchased a couple. Im sure there are many others. Just because we know doesnt mean everyone does.

I truely believe that with the right product Matrix would attract so many more customers. Look at PAradox as an example. If they had sold all their games online only do you think they would be aswell known as they are?

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/5/2005 2:49:14 PM >

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 6:43:02 PM

oi_you_nutter

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the only shop where I have seen games by Matrix is Frys
the Canoga park store has HTTR, KP, Warring Suns (?) and GGWaW

while I understand that dd and mail order will bring in more revenue to Matrix the retail side must not be ignored. the hobby needs to attracte more people and the casual purchase in a retail store is another method of doing so

launch games via mail order and dd to get some money in and then release to retail when the time is right and the game is of mass market appeal and/or very well reviewed.

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 6:51:00 PM

ravinhood

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quote:

You've totally lost me here. I can't comprehend why a new avenue of sale can lower the overall sale of a product. Did the sale of movies drop when DVD's came about? Did everyone have a dvd player? Did that gradually change over time as more people realized that the DVD was a better way to enjoy a movie? Did the customer benefit from having more than one way of buying a movie? Did the movie market lose sales because of dvd's?

A DVD player is highly cheaper than a computer, so you can't even compare apples to oranges with DVD players and their products. But, since you did, DVD products are where? At RETAIL OUTLETS, most common form of selling them and renting them, not "direct download" or "direct sales". So, even in your example you have shown "retail" sales outdo online/direct sales and get more exposure.

Sales of software in "amount" in direct sales vs amount in retail sales will go down, it already has. Matrixgames doesn't get the "EXPOSURE" from direct download like it does in retail sales on a shelf where many will see their product that may not even have a connection to the internet. Your philosophy is because you buy product this way means "everyone" will buy product this way, and while "some (a few) will buy product by direct download or direct sales, the majority of people still buy product retail and still prefer it, it just won't happen or take off in the near future, the trust in the internet just isn't there yet and your majority of consumers don't even use the internet or have computers to buy direct download.

Also, it lowers the population of newcomers to the genre, the 12 year old may never even see a matrixgame title that is interested in wargames, thus, they will use another avenue and probably be led down the route of RTS wargames which are all over software "retail outlets". People tend to buy what they can SEE, not what they happen to come by by accident like finding the Matrixgames website.

In fact I didn't even know about Matrixgames until 2 years ago and I've been on the internet since 1995 and wargaming since 1968, so, that shows you right there, they just don't get EXPOSURE except by accident or word of mouth, which is very slim.

So, while you may be getting what "you" want out of Matrixgames and direct download, many others are not, thus, the population will decrease, the number of sales vs retail sales will decrease, but, their profits will increase. This is my point, the idea is correct, but, at a cost of new wargamers and many consumers never ever seeing or hearing about their products.

Thus, your own happiness may be deminished or even out of business because of lack of EXPOSURE and lack of "GROWTH" in the genre, because of that lack of EXPOSURE.

A company survives not only by profit margin, but, also by "GROWTH & EXPOSURE", you're regular costomers may come and go, without increased growth, the bottom dollar starts to bottom out. Not to mention inflation, cost of goods, increased needs of income by the developers and publishers pushing these direct download prices up, while retail software remains reletively the same in price or even lower with bargain bin savings for the consumer that might like the product and buy the next product at retail. EA, Activision, Microsoft, Atari, you don't see them running to direct download, AND hiding out from the retail sales. They realize they need growth & exposure to continue to maintain profits in the "future". They use an avenue of BOTH, either direct purchase AND retail sales.

You may be a happy camper now, 5 to 10 years from now you may be wondering where Matrixgames went. In my 25 years of computer gaming I've seen a lot of publishers and developers come and go, only the mainstream publishers still remain for the most part. A lot of these guys now with Matrixgames used to be affliated with SSI, and you know what happened to them.

Also reading stories like this don't bode well for the internet market as a secure means of buying product.

http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=9916

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 7/5/2005 7:37:43 PM >

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/5/2005 11:45:30 PM

jungelsj_slith

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quote:

A DVD player is highly cheaper than a computer, so you can't even compare apples to oranges with DVD players and their products. But, since you did, DVD products are where? At RETAIL OUTLETS, most common form of selling them and renting them, not "direct download" or "direct sales". So, even in your example you have shown "retail" sales outdo online/direct sales and get more exposure.

I'm not sure where you're going with this one. I don't think you understood my comparison, so I'll just leave it at that.

quote:

Sales of software in "amount" in direct sales vs amount in retail sales will go down, it already has.

Can you supply us with some numbers? How can you link any drop in sales to direct download?

quote:

Matrixgames doesn't get the "EXPOSURE" from direct download like it does in retail sales on a shelf where many will see their product that may not even have a connection to the internet.

I'm not arguing that. What I said was that the games that have been put up as direct download only would not have existed on the retail market, ever. You either get them as DD or not at all.

quote:

Your philosophy is because you buy product this way means "everyone" will buy product this way

?! What? Where did I say that?

quote:

and while "some (a few) will buy product by direct download or direct sales, the majority of people still buy product retail and still prefer it, it just won't happen or take off in the near future, the trust in the internet just isn't there yet and your majority of consumers don't even use the internet or have computers to buy direct download.

PC game customers don't have a PC? .. ? I dont understand

quote:

They realize they need growth & exposure to continue to maintain profits in the "future". They use an avenue of BOTH, either direct purchase AND retail sales.

Exactly right. More choices for customers and a better profit margin for the developer. More profit = more games, better games. But why is direct download poor for the gaming market?

< Message edited by molotov_billy -- 7/6/2005 12:01:53 AM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 1:25:44 AM

Zap

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quote:

A company survives not only by profit margin, but, also by "GROWTH & EXPOSURE",

Ravinhood, good profit margin is a plus for a company. They can turn the profit into more sales through smart advertisement.

I understood from other threads here that the retail stores are not so open to having wargames on their shelves. Maybe other creative ways of bringing in newbies should be explored.

Wodin, I see advantages with your suggested policy changes.

< Message edited by Zap -- 7/6/2005 3:27:24 AM >

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 7:01:01 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

Can you supply us with some numbers? How can you link any drop in sales to direct download?

Here it is just "common sense" no numbers are needed. Matrix games has published some retail games. "Korsun Pocket", "Highway to the Reich", "Uncommon Valor" and "GGWAW" recently. These games got "retail" exposure, thus a higher sales volume than just direct download/direct sales only. (You can't buy direct download/direct sales if you don't know about it, that's where it just takes common sense to know this) Thus if you merely goto direct download direct sales, you don't sell as many copies, but, you make more profit. I'm not the only one that balks at Matrixgames direct download, direct sales, there are many others who have spoken up about it in the past on these very forums. Do a search, you'll probably find some of these very same discussions.

[PC game customers don't have a PC? .. ? I dont understand]

While PC game customers have PC's, not all of them have "internet connections", just because a person owns a PC doesn't mean they use the internet. My aunts/uncles, and recently past mother never use the internet, my brother doesn't use the internet. To say everyone that plays a wargame and owns a PC has an internet connection and a direct link to Matrixgames would be a falsehood.

What I'm trying to get across that you completely overlooked, I've been gaming for nearly 40 years and until 2 years ago never even heard of Matrixgames. I'm an avid wargamer and if it took me that long to discover Matrixgames, it surely will take others that long if not longer. It was by discovery of their product on a "retail shelf" that I became interested in Matrixgames, not because of the website or their direct download/direct sales feature.

Bottom line is, I don't like just direct download/direct sales. Thus, I don't own many Matrixgames titles and probably never will because of that reason. Something else it requires is a "fast internet connection" such as Cable or DSL. That costs $30 to $40 a month, that in and of itself is an expensive means just to buy a game. $360 to $480 a year can buy a lot of "retail" titles and entertainment is entertainment, if wargame developers want to drive a customer base away, this is a surefire means of doing it in my book. Also the fact that I can return a game title if I don't like it makesanother big difference in the situation. This "you bought it your screwed" sort of purchasing of online direct sales if you don't like the game doesn't fly with me.

Also as has been stated by other forum Admins, the forum population is just a "smidgen" of the total population of purchasers. Maybe 1% if that, so either side for or against on a forum really represents the total of nothing in the overall view of the corporation and how they run their business. Matrixgames seems to think at this point and time their bottom dollar is best gained by direct download direct sales, in the future this may change once again. Only time will tell. I myself will wait for that time. ;)

EDIT NOTE: See the Thread below about Shipping to Australia/Overpricing

Another example of what I mean about direct download/direct sales not necessarily better than retail sales or even comparing to other companies prices and shipping.

.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 7/6/2005 7:07:41 AM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 7:37:23 AM

jungelsj_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Here it is just "common sense" no numbers are needed. Matrix games has published some retail games. "Korsun Pocket", "Highway to the Reich", "Uncommon Valor" and "GGWAW" recently. These games got "retail" exposure, thus a higher sales volume than just direct download/direct sales only. (You can't buy direct download/direct sales if you don't know about it, that's where it just takes common sense to know this) Thus if you merely goto direct download direct sales, you don't sell as many copies, but, you make more profit. I'm not the only one that balks at Matrixgames direct download, direct sales, there are many others who have spoken up about it in the past on these very forums. Do a search, you'll probably find some of these very same discussions.

You're saying something different, here. What you said before was that direct download sales will go down in the future - not that retail units sold were more than direct download units sold. As to your example of the games you listed - look at it this way -

If direct download did not exist, these would be the games (out of the two franchises) that would be available to us -

Korsun Pocket (until they sold out)
Highway to the Reich (until they sold out)

Here are the games that are available to us, as customers, because direct download exists -

Korsun Pocket
Battles in Normandy
Battles in Italy
Highway to the Reich
Conquest of the Aegean

To repeat myself, the sequels to the games you listed would never have been on store shelves at all. They would not be availble to ANY customer if direct download did not exist. The general availability of internet connections, your personal distaste of DD, and the popularity of the matrix games site are all irrelevant to why the basic idea of a direct download of a game is a good idea and why it helps the game industry.

quote:

What I'm trying to get across that you completely overlooked, I've been gaming for nearly 40 years and until 2 years ago never even heard of Matrixgames. I'm an avid wargamer and if it took me that long to discover Matrixgames, it surely will take others that long if not longer. It was by discovery of their product on a "retail shelf" that I became interested in Matrixgames, not because of the website or their direct download/direct sales feature.

Bottom line is, I don't like just direct download/direct sales. Thus, I don't own many Matrixgames titles and probably never will because of that reason. Something else it requires is a "fast internet connection" such as Cable or DSL. That costs $30 to $40 a month, that in and of itself is an expensive means just to buy a game. $360 to $480 a year can buy a lot of "retail" titles and entertainment is entertainment, if wargame developers want to drive a customer base away, this is a surefire means of doing it in my book. Also the fact that I can return a game title if I don't like it makesanother big difference in the situation. This "you bought it your screwed" sort of purchasing of online direct sales if you don't like the game doesn't fly with me.

This isn't at all what we're discussing. I can certainly understand why specific people don't like direct downloads. We're not arguing about that here. The statement that I asked you to backup is why would the option of direct download hurt the game industry?

< Message edited by molotov_billy -- 7/6/2005 7:40:53 AM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 9:03:36 AM

Zap

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Ravinhood, your argument about high cost of DSL is no longer valid. Because of competition prices have dropped drastically. SBC offers it on promotion for 15.00 a month, another company DSLX Extreme also offers it for 15.00 bucks.

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RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 10:54:20 AM

ravinhood

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You best read the fine print of those "promotions", the price goes up after 6 months. We have that here with cablelynx, $19.95 a month for six months then $39.95 thereafter.

Also DSL is not available in every community SBC does not offer support in my area. Believe me I've looked for faster broadband and a reasonable price, but, there just aren't any yet in this area.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 7/6/2005 10:56:22 AM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 11:25:33 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

The statement that I asked you to backup is why would the option of direct download hurt the game industry?

The "OPTION" of direct download/direct sales wouldn't hurt the industry at all, it's the fact with Matrixgames there is NO OPTION. Direct download/direct sales "only" will reduce sales, eventually that consumer market will deminish of the fanbase with reletively very few newcomers to it. There will be no growth in it. Reduced sales in "volume" will net more profit for awhile, but, not at an increased population. The consumer moves along to other avenues of entertainment and direct download only will effect this type of industry. If you can't grasp the future in "volume" sales, then I can't say anymore. Volume sales will increase population and exposure, direct download/direct sales without an option to buy retail will decrease them.

Let's see if I can give figures that you can comprehend better.

100 people buy retail sales merchandise for $10 profit for the industry

10 people buy direct download/direct sales for a $30 profit. (Only 10 people are aware of the direct download of the product and the website).

So there you have it, where your game could have been exposed to 100 people it was only exposed to 10. Population decrease. Even if only 2% of that 100 might have bought the title that is an increase in the population of 2% (2 people), it's a plus, without it, there will be the same 10 people buying the product and a 2% increase by word of mouth from this fanbase isn't even 1 extra person added to the population of the genre. You would need an increase of 10% from those 10 people just to add 1 new person to the genre.

So, you can have a $1000 profit and increased exposure and volume and population or you can just cater to a select few 10 and have a $300 profit. Matrixgames falls into that catagory, for every 100 buyers of mainstream titles on retail shelves they may be lucky to have 10 for this genre. Probably more closer to 1 or even less.

Matrixgames must rely on that fanbase to maintain the same level over the years, but, without exposure the % chance of that happening may deminish as well. They must rely by word of mouth and "new comers" to wargaming entering the genre as fast as the older fans are leaving it. Everyone that plays a wargame doesn't always stay a wargamer. I certainly haven't. Though I will still play them, they certainly don't have the appeal they once had because they are the same thing over and over. The other thing about the genre it gets stuck in a rut of producing too many sameish titles. So, when I meet a newcomer to the wargaming genre what do you think I'm going to tell them? I will suggest the safest and most secure means of entering it, if they want to delve into the insecurities of the internet, I'll leave that up to them. Basically I will use a board wargame as a model for entering wargaming before using the computer.

And then you have the fanbase that won't buy "every" game produced by the company in the first place. So your fanbase 10 can be reduced by 50% or better on various titles. But, without increased population and exposure, it will never go past those 10 fans total to their games. And as the years go by the fanbase could even deminish even more to 8, 6, 5. It's well known the wargaming genre isn't the most popular, and even board wargames are more popular than computer ones still.

Now can you see the difference?

(in reply to jungelsj_slith)

Post #: 20

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 11:51:47 AM

jungelsj_slith

Posts: 244
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

This has got to be the single most bizarre discussion I've ever been a part of. You just continually ignore what it is that I'm saying over, and over, and over. I feel like a little kid by even being a part of it. Nevermind! Direct download sucks! Burn the place down!

< Message edited by molotov_billy -- 7/6/2005 11:53:47 AM >

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 21

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 12:09:41 PM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

Ravinhood, I hate to tell you this, but some of us use our broadband internet connections for a lot more than downloading a couple of games! Your example of saving the money spent on a DSL connection to buy more games in traditional non-DD channels, is a very false economy.

BTW... these days I buy everything via the Internet... games, clothes, printer supplies, books and so forth. Other than food and groceries, there isn't much I buy in the brick and mortar world these days. I made a special effort to go buy WaW in the store to help support Matrix in their effort to attract new blood to the hobby, but other than a few bargain bin titles I'm strictly internet (and terribly frustrated by companies like HPS who don't offer DD). I'm spoiled... I want instant gratification!

As far as retail sales are concerned, I note that PC games keep getting pushed farther and farther back into a dark corner of the retail stores. I think the day will soon come when finding PC software on a store rack will be really difficult. It will all be game console software. Perhaps Matrix needs to start developing PSP versions of it's products?

When it comes to attracting new customers to Matrix, I don't think the answer is in storefront sales. If you are at all in to wargaming (and gaming in general), you are going to be visiting game review sites like Happy Puppy, GameSpy, FilePlanet and all of the others. Advertising on these sites is the key to drawing new wargamers into the Matrix family (along with gaining favorable reviews of your products). Do you really think that eliminating storefront wargame sales will be the deathknell of the hobby? I think you let your own personal preferences color your perception of the marketplace. I have no doubt that every serious computer user will have a broadband internet connection within the next 5 to 10 years. I also suspect that for a large number of people, internet phone service will also become a reality, further enhancing the numbers of online broadband users.

No, I think Matrix is on track with future developments. Going back to the glory days of storefront game sales isn't a viable option. I suspect that HPS and Shrapnel will get on the DD bandwagon eventually also. I recently bought the Gettysburg Campaign from HPS, had to wait 10 days for it to get here, didn't get a manual anyway, nor a box, only a CD in a case. Love the game and would probably want their new Shiloh Campaign if I could DD it for $10 off. As it is, I'll probably wait and spend my money on Matrix titles instead.

Wow... what a rant!

Keep it up Matrix! I think you guys are on a roll (and thanks for the $19.95 Sparta DD!). In the future, I'd love to see some "non-mainstream" titles eventually moved into an electronic DD bin for $10 - $15 after a couple of years. I like picking up old titles that just never tickled my fancy enough to pay full price, but which I'd still like to sample for a reduced price.

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 22

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 12:17:36 PM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy

This has got to be the single most bizarre discussion I've ever been a part of. You just continually ignore what it is that I'm saying over, and over, and over. I feel like a little kid by even being a part of it. Nevermind! Direct download sucks! Burn the place down!

There are a few guys who are always on an anti-Matrix rant about something

It often makes for interesting and wildly free-flowing discussions. They serve a purpose in the forum. Everyone has to keep their cool and don't take anything too personally. Remember, your points are being made to a lot of forum readers and whether the specific poster you are responding to addresses them is often irrelevant.

My comments are always addressed to the larger audience (and to Matrix... they do listen to what's being said). I'm always campaigning for the $19.95 download, for example.

I've enjoyed your commentary, keep it up!

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to jungelsj_slith)

Post #: 23

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 12:34:20 PM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

The statement that I asked you to backup is why would the option of direct download hurt the game industry?

The "OPTION" of direct download/direct sales wouldn't hurt the industry at all, it's the fact with Matrixgames there is NO OPTION. Direct download/direct sales "only" will reduce sales, eventually that consumer market will deminish of the fanbase with reletively very few newcomers to it. There will be no growth in it. Reduced sales in "volume" will net more profit for awhile, but, not at an increased population. The consumer moves along to other avenues of entertainment and direct download only will effect this type of industry. If you can't grasp the future in "volume" sales, then I can't say anymore. Volume sales will increase population and exposure, direct download/direct sales without an option to buy retail will decrease them.

Let's see if I can give figures that you can comprehend better.

100 people buy retail sales merchandise for $10 profit for the industry

10 people buy direct download/direct sales for a $30 profit. (Only 10 people are aware of the direct download of the product and the website).

So there you have it, where your game could have been exposed to 100 people it was only exposed to 10. Population decrease. Even if only 2% of that 100 might have bought the title that is an increase in the population of 2% (2 people), it's a plus, without it, there will be the same 10 people buying the product and a 2% increase by word of mouth from this fanbase isn't even 1 extra person added to the population of the genre. You would need an increase of 10% from those 10 people just to add 1 new person to the genre.

So, you can have a $1000 profit and increased exposure and volume and population or you can just cater to a select few 10 and have a $300 profit. Matrixgames falls into that catagory, for every 100 buyers of mainstream titles on retail shelves they may be lucky to have 10 for this genre. Probably more closer to 1 or even less.

Matrixgames must rely on that fanbase to maintain the same level over the years, but, without exposure the % chance of that happening may deminish as well. They must rely by word of mouth and "new comers" to wargaming entering the genre as fast as the older fans are leaving it. Everyone that plays a wargame doesn't always stay a wargamer. I certainly haven't. Though I will still play them, they certainly don't have the appeal they once had because they are the same thing over and over. The other thing about the genre it gets stuck in a rut of producing too many sameish titles. So, when I meet a newcomer to the wargaming genre what do you think I'm going to tell them? I will suggest the safest and most secure means of entering it, if they want to delve into the insecurities of the internet, I'll leave that up to them. Basically I will use a board wargame as a model for entering wargaming before using the computer.

And then you have the fanbase that won't buy "every" game produced by the company in the first place. So your fanbase 10 can be reduced by 50% or better on various titles. But, without increased population and exposure, it will never go past those 10 fans total to their games. And as the years go by the fanbase could even deminish even more to 8, 6, 5. It's well known the wargaming genre isn't the most popular, and even board wargames are more popular than computer ones still.

Now can you see the difference?

You are mistaken when you assume that a storefront browser who picks up a wargame because of the cool cover art is going to become a dedicated wargamer. A more likely scenario is that they will be totally overwhelmed by the complexity of the genre and the intellectual capacity needed to play these games. I suspect that most people who bought WaW in the store did so because they went looking for the title after reading a review or seeing some online discussion. A few probably bought it because it looked like "Axis and Allies", but only a few and most of them were probably just confused by it. To argue that the future of the hobby depends on flooding storefronts with wargames is way off the mark.

Instead, the Internet and online sales are the future. You really need to get past your personal preferences to see that. If you don't buy a great game because it's DD in a fit of pique, you are only hurting yourself and your crusade isn't going to stop the inevitable.

But then, won't it be fun when we're both on Social Security and you get to say "I told you so" as the wargame hobby collapses into nothingness?

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 24

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 4:09:44 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

But then, won't it be fun when we're both on Social Security and you get to say "I told you so" as the wargame hobby collapses into nothingness?

LOL, no not really, I don't want to see it collapse, I'm just suggesting that I as a wargamer of a sort am putoff by the direct download/direct sales "only" ideals being presented here. I am part of that "population of wargaming" I'm speaking about deminishing over the next few years.

If you begin to alienate your firm fanbase, you not only don't get any retail sales, but, you also begin losing your firm fanbase as well. As stated, we the forum members barely represent anything around here or anywhere for that matter. Matrixgames gets 10's of 1000's of sales, there's hardly an inkling of that that posts here. Perhaps their direct sales direct download market is sufficient atm. But, the question still remains, will it be 5, 10, 15 years from now or will it just fade away like so many others over the years? As an American I believe in "choice" and the "freedom to choose", that's our heritage, our constitutional rights. So, I choose not to support direct sales/direct download as an only means to continue my hobby, which as a whole is "gaming", not necessarily just war(gaming).

I speak as one here, but, as is normally the case where there is one there is 10 and where there is 10 there is 100, etc. etc. If I'm not happy with the purchasing options, I'm sure there are others as well and even others that like me until 2 years ago, don't even know about Matrixgames. I look for where I have "options", no genre "owns" me so to speak. I'm not missing out on anything, if I'm not interested in the first place or don't even know about the game company. It just means I will funnel my own entertainment dollars into something else, another company, like Activision who put Civil War:Battle of Bull Run on the shelf at $19.99 also I might add and it's a remarkable game for the price and easily sufficient to satisfy my wargaming needs.

Also a note rhondabrwn, it was at Treasure City in a small town in Texas that I bought my first wargame, it wasn't direct sales, wasn't from some flyer in the mail, but, was something that "caught my eye" after being introduced to a game in school. So, while you suggest that nobody is going to be interested in the wargame genre because of some flashy art on the box or thinking the game is too complex without even looking at it, I will disagree here, the imagination and intelligence of some of our youth is brighter than you may think. A flashy box with some wargame graphics on it nowadays, most especially since most all RTS games and FPSers have moved to WWII in general, would surely catch the eyes of some just as well as the others will and have. ;)

At 12/13 years old the youth is more prone to try "many" things instead of just sticking to one genre, my son and nephew are prime examples of that as I have seen them swing from platform games, to beatemup games, to FPSers to RTS to turn based, to strategy, to wargames, to rpgs and there and back again several times over their years. Eventually they will find their genres of choice, but, at 12/13 the sky is the limit as long as it has "game" in the title. This I've seen from first hand experience and having the library to watch them move from one to the other and finding their niche.

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 25

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 7:09:32 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline

quote:

LOL, no not really, I don't want to see it collapse, I'm just suggesting that I as a wargamer of a sort am putoff by the direct download/direct sales "only" ideals being presented here. I am part of that "population of wargaming" I'm speaking about deminishing over the next few years.

Aren't you the one that buys the vast majority of your games through ebay these days?

_____________________________

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 26

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 7:25:10 PM

Montbrun

Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline

Direct Download is actually saving us money. If Matrix were forced to "buy shelfspace" in your local software store, we'd be paying $10-$20, or more, per game. Matrix is in a "niche" market. The only way that Matrix, and other small developer/publishers can stay in business, is to maximize their returns, in order to be able to produce more "niche" market products. Hell, I like to be able to have immediate gratification by downloading a game from my computer.....

Brad

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 27

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 9:28:46 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Direct Download is actually saving us money. If Matrix were forced to "buy shelfspace" in your local software store, we'd be paying $10-$20, or more, per game. Matrix is in a "niche" market. The only way that Matrix, and other small developer/publishers can stay in business, is to maximize their returns, in order to be able to produce more "niche" market products. Hell, I like to be able to have immediate gratification by downloading a game from my computer.....

Brad

Thats odd as Matrix always says the games are still highly priced as its no cheaper going through Digital River.

_____________________________

My website

https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to Montbrun)

Post #: 28

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/6/2005 11:02:56 PM

superdave56

Posts: 22
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline

I just want to say, as a loyal customer of matrix who has bought and enjoyed several games via DD - I love it. I can order the game, download it and be playing it in a few minutes. These are niche games - they are never going to have the base to be in Walmart or EB which are the only outlets many Americans like myself (who live in a small town) have access to in the physical world.

The fact is I would not have bought the game at all if it weren't for DD and I wish other publishers would adopt the same policy.

EB, et al. are stocking mostly console games and mass market PC games. Great games like CoG are not going to get shelf space at these outlets unless they stand to sell 10000s of copies and that just isn't going to happen with wargames. Turn based wargames will never be mass market, and I don't want them to be mass market. I find Doom XXXIII and Half-Life 74 to be boring rehash which were really cool when I was about 15 - much like popular music and movies. Mass market = Lowest Common Denominator. I prefer not to waste my time or money.

My only alternative would be to buy through Amazon or some other online retailer, wait days and pay extra for shipping, etc. Frankly that's too much hassle for me. I love the DD option and I probably would never have heard of these games, let alone bought them if they were not available from download from Matrix. Matrix does it right, too - no stupid DRM or phoning home to "verify" a la Windows XP - just type in a serial and away you go.

By the way, don't most of the games come with an option for ordering a physical CD? Fantasizing about wargames being stocked in every Walmart is just that, fantasy. Its not going to happen except maybe in a couple of very rare cases - so its DD direct distribution or no game at all. Take your pick.

Besides, why should Walmart make all the cash while the devs get 5 cents a copy? That's the same sort of thing that's killing the music biz. Alternate channels of distribution away from the retail big hit mentality means more and better choices for consumers. Games or other creative endeavors that would never have seen the light of day can get directly to those who will appreciate and pay for them.

All hail Digital Download!!!!!

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 29

RE: Matrix and no shop sales policy - 7/7/2005 2:01:56 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

There are some incorrect assumptions here. Suffice it to say that going to retail is no longer a solution and while digital downloads are not cheap, for a company our size retail is even more expensive for us and our customers. The retail market for PC games has changed from day to night in the last ten years. I don't have time to post more, but based on numbers and analyses I have seem, we are definitely heading in the right direction.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC