Line vs Column during charges...

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Line vs Column during charges...

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Napoleonics] >> Crown of Glory >> Line vs Column during charges...

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Line vs Column during charges... - 7/6/2005 6:37:43 PM

frodon

Posts: 10
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

Only fought a couple of battles yet (they keep on crashing before I can end them) - but is it correct that line-formation is more effective than column when you charge?

And shouldn't it be the other way round??

Post #: 1

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/6/2005 6:47:30 PM

sol_invictus

Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

Ideally yes; since the game doesn't distinguish betwee March Column and Assault Column, the Column in the game is considered a March Cloumn. There is a Military Upgrade called Column Fighting and one for Bayonet Practice that would make a Column much more effective in an Assault. There is also a Mixed Order Upgrade that helps with this. These are only workarounds though and it would really be nice if an Assault Column were a deployable formation.

(in reply to frodon)

Post #: 2

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/6/2005 6:54:58 PM

Jordan

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

Ideally yes; since the game doesn't distinguish betwee March Column and Assault Column, the Column in the game is considered a March Cloumn

Definitely agree.

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 3

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/6/2005 7:19:53 PM

Reg Pither

Posts: 196
Joined: 9/19/2003
From: London
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: frodon

Only fought a couple of battles yet (they keep on crashing before I can end them) - but is it correct that line-formation is more effective than column when you charge?

And shouldn't it be the other way round??

Is it?? Wow, that must be devastating as my infantry columns sometimes do tremendous damage - 2000-2500 casualties at a time isn't uncommon in the right circumstances. I'll try line next...

Obviously, I've never charged with an infantry unit in line formation, it would never have occured to me.

But I agree it would be nice to see both types of column represented.

< Message edited by Reg Pither -- 7/6/2005 7:22:34 PM >

(in reply to frodon)

Post #: 4

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/6/2005 7:25:56 PM

DrewMatrix

Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline

The charge thing is not really like a cavalry charge. It is more "forcing a moral check on the other guy by getting really close"

The advantage of the column is that it covers ground quicker and is less prone to disorder as it covers the ground. _Usually_ the "charge in column" action was really "get close in column, see if you scare them and they run" or "get really close in column, then deploy to line to fight". The Column wasn't really effective. The guys in the back ranks were wasted. (Unlike say in Ancients where the back 6 ranks of pikemen actually do add something to the real melee). The "real melee" happened in Ancient battles, with cavalry in the Napoleonic era, and rarely around strong points (at Borodino around the redoubts for example).

The British did "charge in line" on occasion but it was after cracking the French morale with musketry, seeing they were wavering, then rushing them a short distance in line to put them to flight. If the column was flanked by the line (ie had a shorter frontage and was not supported on either flank) this was particularly effective in breaking their morale and making them skedaddle.

_____________________________

Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to Reg Pither)

Post #: 5

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/6/2005 10:35:00 PM

sol_invictus

Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

Agreed; it's just the part about timing the change from Column into Line that usually caused the problems. Very hard to judge with smoke and obscuring terrain I would imagine.

(in reply to DrewMatrix)

Post #: 6

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/6/2005 11:16:28 PM

Jordan

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline

If the defenders succeded in a "moral check" then the attack column was in trouble (for the reasons you both mentioned - back ranks couldn't fire, easliy outflanked, etc). It was effective in advancing quickly to the target (intimidation) and maintaining cohesion.

(in reply to DrewMatrix)

Post #: 7

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/6/2005 11:42:58 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

And if I recall my history from so many years ago, cohesion was the primary reason the revolutionary French began using "assault columns": to keep their green levee-en-masse units from falling apart on the attack.

(in reply to Jordan)

Post #: 8

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/7/2005 12:24:08 AM

DrewMatrix

Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

And if I recall my history from so many years ago, cohesion was the primary reason the revolutionary French began using "assault columns": to keep their green levee-en-masse units from falling apart on the attack.

I concur. The stuff about line being a better formation for combat assumes the troops are well trained. With rabble you mass them together and herd them towards the cannons.

IIRC there is a big penalty in COG that makes it risky to try to change formation if you level is under 3.0. And you can't move much in line without becoming disordered. (you will bump into some terrain that disorders or shakes you). So the same thing will tend to happen here.

_____________________________

Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 9

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/7/2005 12:54:19 AM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

quote:

And if I recall my history from so many years ago, cohesion was the primary reason the revolutionary French began using "assault columns": to keep their green levee-en-masse units from falling apart on the attack.

I concur. The stuff about line being a better formation for combat assumes the troops are well trained. With rabble you mass them together and herd them towards the cannons.

IIRC there is a big penalty in COG that makes it risky to try to change formation if you level is under 3.0. And you can't move much in line without becoming disordered. (you will bump into some terrain that disorders or shakes you). So the same thing will tend to happen here.

So what Im taking from this is that its best to stay in columns during battle???

_____________________________

(in reply to DrewMatrix)

Post #: 10

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/7/2005 1:25:27 AM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

quote:

So what Im taking from this is that its best to stay in columns during battle???

only if you plan on chargeing the other guy all the time, column does less damage with fire attacks and takes more losses when it is fired back at

make a nice line of troops and let the other guy march into you, most times, there won't be anybody there by the time they reach you

of course, them silly horses tend to mess up my pretty lines

HARD_Sarge

oh yea, and get out of the square as soon as you can if you are forced into one, the best trick is to force a troop to go into a square with a fake Charge, and then let loose with a Arty battery

when you can, also put your guns online too, they fire well in column (don't understand that, they should have to limber and unlimber)

nothing better then a 2000-2500 blast from your guns just as the troops get in range

_____________________________

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 11

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/7/2005 2:28:38 AM

DrewMatrix

Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

make a nice line of troops and let the other guy march into you

If he should be so obliging. The art is to take a position where he can't actually see that line (you being just on the reverse slope, out of site from his side of the hill, and not subject to cannon fire there either). Put Cannon and a thin line of skirmishers on the fore slope, peppering him as his columns advance. He comes up the hill (in column so he doesn't get disordered) and just as he crest the hill and the last site he sees on this earth is British infantry, in line, under arms giving one controlled volley.

"The British peasant, staring death in the face, hitching up his pants, and waiting"
George MacDonald Fraser.

_____________________________

Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 12

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/7/2005 2:31:06 AM

DrewMatrix

Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline

Which brings up a queston:

Anyone here playing PBEM? Can you do tactical battles PBEM?

You may want to set up a dummy game (just to crteate teh Detail Battle) and then fight out the tactical battle. It would be _much_ more entertaining against a real live person.

_____________________________

Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to DrewMatrix)

Post #: 13

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/8/2005 11:36:35 PM

ahauschild

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

Actuly, Line formation did not lend itself for charges, as they did not have the depth to maintain the push once casultuies where taken. There is many accounts of French Battle Columns advancing steadfast against line formations, taking horrible damage in the process but rarley wavering. To see French Battle Columns advancing on one was about the worst thing most infantry men could imagine.

Line formations where only a few men deep, so once they took a volley they where not effective for charging, also because of the ground covered line formations did not charge well, as they broke up to easily by uneven ground.

This is one part of the game that I do not agree with. It should be as such.

Line Formation

Best Fire Power
Strong Change of disruption if moved across any non flat terrain
Little Charge or Melee power
Less Vunerable to Artillery
Highly Vunerable to Cavarly Charges

Battle Column
Least Fire Power
Strongly capable of crossing non flat terrain
High Moral
Vunerable to Artillery and Volley Fire
Exelent cav protection to front, vunerable to cav charge from side or rear.

Square
Low Fire Power
High Chance of disruption when moved
Little Movement Allownance
High Moral
Very Vunerable to Artillery and Volley fire
Excellent Cava Charge protection from all sides, unless faced with Lancers, then slightly better Cav Charge protection

Travel Column
No Fire Power
No Chance of disruption when moved across any terrain passable
High movement allowance
Low Moral
Very Vunerable to Artillery and Volley fire
Highly vunerable to Cav Charges.

Currently I dont look as line as line formation, but look at it as a Battle Deployed Formation versus column being a combination march and partialy deployed. It would have been nicer if the original line, Battle Column and Square formations where better reflected to historical and traditional expectations.

(in reply to DrewMatrix)

Post #: 14

RE: Line vs Column during charges... - 7/9/2005 12:33:38 AM

DrewMatrix

Posts: 1429
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline

In reply to ahauschild:

I don't know that square was very vulnerable even to lancers. Basically square is unbreakable by cavalry in the statistical sense (it happened, what, 3-4 times total 1792 to 1815 and those were freak accidents).

Column may (or may not

) be faster at forming square than line as one more advantage on the side of battle column. I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home.

I still don't think column is worth much against decent quality troops, formed, standing there waiting for you. But note those three qualifiers. Column can break militia.

Hmm, ahauschild may want to add to that (nice) list:

Column gives a morale advantage too, and the morale advantages are greatest for poor quality troops . Ie good quality troops have about the same morale in assault column or line, militia have worse morale in all circumstances, but much worse in line than in assault column (basically that is the only way to keep them together).

Re "depth to maintain the push" I don't buy it. You charge at them and they run away (or you fail to advance). There is no "push".

For an excellent description of trying to close with a line of troops pouring fire into you look at "Picket's Charge" (The book. Ask me if you don't know it and I'll get the ISBN when I am at home. It is a little out of the period, I know, but a well documented look at what happens when infantry tries to close with infantry.).

Picketts men didn't really close (because the other side didn't flinch) so they stalled a few yards from the union troops. You would think you would either run towards them (to get it over with one way or the other) or run away but they just stood there blazing away at each other in a suicidal manner.

There was this invisible line. Anyone who went slightly forward of the rest stood out, drew fire and was instantly shot down. So the bulk of the men stayed there, bunched up together, shooting back at very short range but not actually closing and not breaking until considerable casualties had been inflicted on them.

That is what really happened to my mind. Not a bayonet battle.

< Message edited by Beezle -- 7/9/2005 12:35:36 AM >

_____________________________

Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to ahauschild)

Post #: 15