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Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 9:14:58 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I mean come on, 18 month to build a Guard Div ?
(which seeing as they wern't built in the first place, you were promoted to them)

most of the fancy/good unit, I never build, as I will never see them, why take 18 months to build a Guard, when I can built 18 Inf Divs ???

(well Paris takes one month to build a Inf Div, most cities take 3 months, so in Paris, a Guard would only take 15 months, but still)

HARD_Sarge


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 9:32:45 AM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I think most of the 'default' game settings make for too short of a game. Playing to 1000 usually means only playing for a few years.

In that setting, the longer time units dont make much sense (as you said) and neither do many of province upgrades. The costs and time wont be paid back before the likely end of the game. Compare that to Barracks upgrades which not only produce troops faster (and better), but give you Military Upgrades as well. Clearly they are a FAR better buy than any of the other province upgrades.

I'm not sure how it applies to longer scenarios though. I've taken to playing 5000 Glory ending points but I've honestly never played a game to conclusion with that setting. I'm currently bogged down in not being be figure out many of the game's details so I'm constanty re-starting to test various things (usually unsuccessfully, I might add...). My guess is that you will still get more mileage from military upgrades than from anything you can do for the econ but I'm not sure (waste figures in quite prominantly here).

But yeah, overall, I agree that some of the cost scales seem a bit off.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 9:58:31 AM   
marc420

 

Posts: 224
Joined: 9/23/2002
From: Terrapin Station
Status: offline 		Well, if the troops coming out of your draft program are basically good enough to fairly quickly be thrown into Militia units, with a couple of more months training to get to be Regular Infantry, how much more training do you think you need to get up to Guard level. Saying it takes an additional year of training to get to elite status may not be too far off.

An example from a completely different era ... the company of the 82 Airborne that Band of Brothers is about trained together for a bit over a year before they went into action. If that is only six months, are they still the same elite unit?

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 10:39:19 AM   
Uxbridge


Posts: 1505
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline 		Maybe it would have been better if Guard units weren't "bought" in the first place, but simply formed out of regular units. When an infantry division have been around for a year or two, and adding some Money/Textiles, a certain amount of it's strength could be tranfered to create a Guard division. Then there could be some limit; say, that one may only have one Guard unit per ten ordinary units of the same type at any given time. Once the first Guard unit was made, there would be a small but steady stream of strength factors going from all other veteran units to the Guard unit, just as replacements stream from to the National Pool to the ordinary units.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 12:15:16 PM   
Kimse123

 

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Joined: 6/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

Maybe it would have been better if Guard units weren't "bought" in the first place, but simply formed out of regular units. When an infantry division have been around for a year or two, and adding some Money/Textiles, a certain amount of it's strength could be tranfered to create a Guard division. Then there could be some limit; say, that one may only have one Guard unit per ten ordinary units of the same type at any given time. Once the first Guard unit was made, there would be a small but steady stream of strength factors going from all other veteran units to the Guard unit, just as replacements stream from to the National Pool to the ordinary units.


That is a VERY good idea.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 12:21:36 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Thank you Uxbridge

that was part of the point I was trying to make, they wern't trained, or built, they were made in combat, the old pro's

which at the time, we (they) had the OLD Guard and the Young Guard

but still, that is neither here nor there

the idea is a major city, a recuiting depot or what ever, starts to train a Guard unit, that is it, for the next 15-18 months, nothing else is coming out of there, so while you may be able to say, it should take longer for this type of unit to be made, the next month, another unit should be being made also

and isn't that part of the idea behind the draft and draft pool, they are being trained for how many months, to be able to join the units, but we have to built the units

so persay, we are not building the troops, we are building the name

the other one that gets me is the ARMY and the CORPS, what are we building for so long ?

it is a HQ funtion, it is somewhat like the Germen KG during the 2nd WW, it was here today, it was gone tomorrow, and if needed, could be back the day after, it is all paper work

I dont understand the labor system to building troops, it takes 20 labor to build a Inf Div, it take 20 labor to build a Mil ? why

also, why the big need for Textiles for building troops ?, the AI using that for morale/glory also, in 3 long games, I have had over 100 Textiles in stock, once, and I was making 125-150 a turn

why, love the game, don't get me wrong, just think some things should be touched up some :)

HARD_Sarge


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 12:31:08 PM   
Reiryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I mean come on, 18 month to build a Guard Div ?
(which seeing as they wern't built in the first place, you were promoted to them)

most of the fancy/good unit, I never build, as I will never see them, why take 18 months to build a Guard, when I can built 18 Inf Divs ???

(well Paris takes one month to build a Inf Div, most cities take 3 months, so in Paris, a Guard would only take 15 months, but still)

HARD_Sarge



I'm pretty comfortable with the build times because I usually end up with about 2 guard units in my forces when playing france or austria.

In the end, there needs to be some kind of real inhibitor to pumping out guard units left and right. This works well in creating circumstances that make it difficult to 'abuse' having too many guard units.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 2:54:57 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I can see part of your point, but I would rather see a limit to the number that can be built, either a set amount or based on how large your armies are

18 months to build a unit that was never built in the first place seems a little out of place

but we getting off track, that was just an case in point

just think it is out of place when we have a draft system in place to recuit the manpower needed to fill the units, and have to wait for the manpower to be trained, before we can use them, to turn around and say, you have to wait for this or that unit to be built, it takes time to train them

HARD_Sarge


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 3:04:30 PM   
Uxbridge


Posts: 1505
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline
Why not make Guard units quality reflective on the proportion of regular units? One could give it a basic quality raise of 10% for being Guard, then adding 2% for each other division in the field. If you have one Guard and 10 regular infantry disvisions, for an example, the Guard would have a quality edge of 30% (above 10 regulars there could be a decrease to 1% raise in the Guard unit for each additional division, and above 20 no increase at all; making no Guard unit stronger than + 40% a maximum).

Suppose you have 10 regulars and 3 Guards; then the Guards extra quality would only be 16,6% better than others (+10% basic + 1/3x(10x2)). With 30 regular units, the value would again be + 30%.

I have no idea yet how the game differs Gd from Inf, so the figures are merely to be seen as an example of how to adress both forming of Guards (se my post above) and the effect of their proportion within the military as a whole.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 5:14:59 PM   
Naomi

 

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
Status: offline 		Are rifle infantrymen worth building? It takes 12 months for London to produce a single division and a high quantity of iron.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 5:34:21 PM   
Mr. Z


Posts: 1048
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline 		Regarding the guard units, you could think of it as just an order to build a guard unit once enough veterans would be available to make one. It's just an abstraction--you're effectively saying "Once I have enough veterans, I'm going to siphon them off and build a guard unit." This could conceivably take up to a year-and-a-half.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 6:14:09 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		It takes a long time for troops gathered from various individual units to come together and meld into a cohesive elite fighting formation. You can't just scoop up veterans from different divisions and throw them together and have anything like the level of cohesion that is evident in a unit that has been training together.

As a matter of fact, veterans tend to be harder to re-train because of their annoying tendency to employ their experience to avoid frontal assaults and go to ground early.

Another reason why long training times are preferable to a maximum limit of certain elite unit types is the gamey situation where a player will build his 3 elite guard units, use them to turn the tide of battle in a reckless manner, and then build 3 more guard units a short time later to replace the destroyed ones. Rinse and repeat.

< Message edited by carnifex -- 7/7/2005 6:20:28 PM >

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 11:15:16 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Mr Z
sure you could think like that, and it would be fine, but you are also saying that we are waiting to get enough troops to make a elite unit, so all Factorys in Paris can take the next year and a half off

got to disagree with the idea of how much time it takes for Vets to learn how to fight together

you know how long it takes ? it don't take no time for the Vets to learn how to fight together, they work in small unit, the time is for the leaders to learn how to use the small units together

over all, in a Div size unit, no trooper really know anybody, other then the people right around him

(story time, I am a Ex Marine, I was in A 1/8 2nd Marine Div, talking to some friends at work, who were also Marines, ends up asking one what unit he was in, and he was H@S 2nd Marines, the other guy asked him when he was there, once that got talking, it turns out they were both in H@S 2nd Marines for 3 years at the same time)

HARD_Sarge


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 11:21:12 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline 		I think this is really just a game balance issue more than anything and as such I don't find it offensive. It is important to ensure that armies have a limited supply of these special units and this seems to accomplish the task nicely while still staying within the basic confines of the existing game systems. All-in-all, I think there are much better bang for the buck enhacements to be had that will have far more impact than trying to model unit promotions.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 11:35:27 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		do you have any Guard units ?

I have finished 3 games, and never had a Guard unit, never been able to build a Dipomat, have had one rifle Div

I build Inf Divs, and a Few Cav Divs, 2/3 of my Arty, I take from the other guy

my major builds are Armies

HARD_Sarge


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/7/2005 11:38:35 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

do you have any Guard units ?

I have finished 3 games, and never had a Guard unit, never been able to build a Dipomat, have had one rifle Div

I build Inf Divs, and a Few Cav Divs, 2/3 of my Arty, I take from the other guy

my major builds are Armies

HARD_Sarge



This is good....

Ask yourself, how many rifle divisions did prussia, russia, or austria have?

How many guard units existed in these nations?

The vast majority of units in armies were your standard infantry divisions.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 12:15:02 AM   
DrewMatrix


Posts: 1429
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quote:

18 month to build a Guard Div


IIRC the criteria for admission to the guard (French) were:
5 Years
and
2 Campaigns

(Oh yeah, there was a height requirement. I think it was 5 ft 10 in for the heavy cav and something like 5 foot 7 inches for the infantry).

So 18 months is too easy.

You lost a rank, but were paid up a rank, ie a Sergeant in the line became a Corporal in the Guard but received the pay of a line Sergeant.

IMO the Guard was actually destructive to the french war effort. All those guys who were lower rankers in the Guard should have been valuable NCOs and as such would have markedly improved the quality of teh line units (particularly late - 1813 and 1814 when the line quality was suffering).

On the other hand, the Gurad were a useful very secure protection for the Imperial Person. They got him out of Russia and off the field at Waterloo even with things collapsing around him.

The question is

Do you want a better chance to win or a better chance to survive if you lose? As soon as General Bonaparte is gone the Empire is gone so the Imperial Person is worth protecting.

< Message edited by Beezle -- 7/8/2005 12:18:30 AM >

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 2:17:34 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

I'm pretty comfortable with the build times because I usually end up with about 2 guard units in my forces when playing france or austria.

In the end, there needs to be some kind of real inhibitor to pumping out guard units left and right. This works well in creating circumstances that make it difficult to 'abuse' having too many guard units.


I agree with this 100%, shouldn't be hordes or guard units on the map, 2 is sufficient I believe, should be limited to to max at any one time also.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 2:20:23 AM   
Ralegh


Posts: 1557
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		I don't have a major problem with build times, although I think they might be a tad long. Provinces with more factories get faster build times (which I think should be faster still). I would like to be able to further accelerate build times by allocating labor to the purpose.

I have logged textiles as a bug: I think they are too hard to accumulate, and the population auto-comsupmtion should be reduced to work on a sliding scale - that would reward production of textiles, and make it more likely they get traded.

Although as non-France I always start building corps, my following build is often guards, and they sometimes join the game before the end.

Note that building a guards unit depresses the morale of other units - unrestricted building of guards uinits will apparently reduce the morale of you infantry divisions (reflecting the ciphoning out of veterans).

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 2:36:47 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		I've managed to have four guards divisions at one time before ending a standard campaign(1000 Glory) as Prussia. Textiles are a pain to get and when you have a good flow it just creates more waste textiles but it can be done with adept trade & economy. Having two full Armies with two guards each makes me nigh unstoppable so i am not too upset about the build times and with a level 10 barracks and 8+factory it is well worth it.
Speaking of the "picture this" method of rationalizing build times, Prussia's guards were historically known for being over 7 ft. tall so i "can" imagine it would take quite some time to form a unit. Of course nowadays one need only draft from the NBA.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 3:07:34 AM   
Tanaka


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I mean come on, 18 month to build a Guard Div ?
(which seeing as they wern't built in the first place, you were promoted to them)

most of the fancy/good unit, I never build, as I will never see them, why take 18 months to build a Guard, when I can built 18 Inf Divs ???

(well Paris takes one month to build a Inf Div, most cities take 3 months, so in Paris, a Guard would only take 15 months, but still)

HARD_Sarge



Fill your city with POW's and watch your production go up!

A nation can use POW’s to increase the labor output in provinces they control. A POW division located in a province owned by the controller of the POW division generates some labor that is divided by the province’s labor allocation.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 7/8/2005 3:08:29 AM >

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 3:16:08 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Fill your city with POW's and watch your production go up!

A nation can use POW’s to increase the labor output in provinces they control. A POW division located in a province owned by the controller of the POW division generates some labor that is divided by the province’s labor allocation.
Yup, putting POW's in a city has another bonus aside from freeing space in your army.


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 3:39:29 AM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
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quote:

Yup, putting POW's in a city has another bonus aside from freeing space in your army.


I've recenlty found a bug that POW's put into cities can, by themselves, defend the city during a siege.


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 3:47:46 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

quote:

Yup, putting POW's in a city has another bonus aside from freeing space in your army.


I've recenlty found a bug that POW's put into cities can, by themselves, defend the city during a siege.


Hmmm, all this time i've moved them to the most remote cities...at least they are being polite guests.


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 4:23:20 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		ahhh. I got over 300 K in POW in Paris

at times I think about putting them on depot supply with out adding a depot, just so they die from hunger

LOL
after about 6 months of battle with the English, I have not seen a English Army, I think I got most of them in Paris

HARD_Sarge




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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 8:11:52 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

ahhh. I got over 300 K in POW in Paris

at times I think about putting them on depot supply with out adding a depot, just so they die from hunger

LOL
after about 6 months of battle with the English, I have not seen a English Army, I think I got most of them in Paris

It is pretty clear from reading this thread that WAY too many men and guns are being captured in CoG. It is not realistic and it is leading to some pretty serious game balance issues. I hope that this will be reviewed by the developers.

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Post #: 26
RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 11:19:14 AM   
Reg Pither


Posts: 196
Joined: 9/19/2003
From: London
Status: offline 		It would be great if the returning of POW's to their mother country could be included as a clause in treaties.

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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 2:05:31 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		over all, I don't think it unrealistic, if you fight your battles right, you can and should take a lot of POW's

my last game, as France, the Aus sent a large army into France and my troops were not able to mass in time and lost the first battle, but the rest were getting close, the next month the Aus headed deeper into France, my Army massed and they were cut off from retreat, they lost and the whole army went into the bag

Aus surrender a few months later, they didn't have any troops left

also, don't forget, as France and the Human player, the AI tends to gang up on you, I had POWs from 5 countrys in Paris

and the funny part, Prussia with there crippled 100 K man armies, kept trying to sneak into my land, and I kept telling them bad boy, and they would ran back home

but on the other hand, will agree with the fact that the AI will send in a lot of single Divs, if they run into a Army, they tend to give up,that side of it is over blown, but the POWs from battle does not seem so bad

HARD_Sarge


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RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 2:23:36 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Okay, I think I screwed up when I mentioned the Guard units, that was not the point or idea I was trying to get across, just one of the units I remembered the time limit on building

think more of the point I was trying to make

end of my last game, I was producting, 90+ labor a turn, 105+ Iron, 145+ Textile and 70+ horses

could I build anything ? not really

oh well, guess I just go back and start playing, my troops agree with me more then you guys do :)

HARD_Sarge


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Post #: 29
RE: Anybody else think the build times are silly ? - 7/8/2005 2:31:37 PM   
Jonny_B


Posts: 299
Joined: 5/20/2004
From: Dunnellon, Florida
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge:


Yes the Guard Div is a somewhat misunderstanding for me.
I am playing the France and never has any unit upgraded to a Guard Div.

Has anybody experience this game feature.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 30
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