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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Scenario Design >> Daily Supply CHS/Stock Page: [1]
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Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/8/2005 10:25:21 PM   
velkro


Posts: 118
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline 		In my Patch 1.60 and CHS 1.00 game as Allies, I have all these AKs sitting in the Middle East awaiting supplies to load. According to my calculations, it appears that daily supply and daily fuel has been cut dramatically from the Stock Scen 15 to CHS Scen 155, to wit:

US/Panama:
Stock CHS
40,000 Daily Supply 24,500 ~ 38%cut
40,000 Daily Fuel 24,000 ~ 40%cut

Karahi/Bombay/Middle East/Aden:
Stock CHS
20,000 Daily Supply 13,000 ~ 35%cut
12,000 Daily Fuel 6,000 ~ 50%cut

Not sure how this will play out, but I thought this was pretty significant.
Post #: 1
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/8/2005 10:40:54 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
Yup - we cut them. I had not calculated the percentage of the cut but it is intended to reduce the abundance of allied supplies during the first months of the war.

I also play with a house rule that says cargo ships and tankers can not return to the Middle East for cargos. They can only pick up at Aden and must wait until suppies/fuel trickle down from Middle East. This little rule causes dozens of ships to build up in Aden waiting to load.

Ships that arrive in Middle East can carry supplies from there (simulates loaded bottoms arriving from Europe) but one must be careful as some of these ships will be needed to transfer arriving land and air units.

(in reply to velkro)
Post #: 2
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/9/2005 11:00:44 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I have found these and other CHS changes to be very satisfying and historically seem to add to accuracy..

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RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/9/2005 11:22:59 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		I still think all the auto-supply needs reducing. All the bases that get auto-supply have industry too.

The Resources in Japan could probably survive being toned down a bit as well. There are vast surpluses of resources produced all over the Co-Prosperity Sphere to make up for it.





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Post #: 4
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 12:54:26 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Yup - we cut them. I had not calculated the percentage of the cut but it is intended to reduce the abundance of allied supplies during the first months of the war.



The problem here is there are simply too few supplies now for 1943 and beyond. One Large base can burn well over 100k supplies a month when it is engaged in heavy fighting (Port Moresby, Lunga, Louganville, Mandalay, Imphal, etc.). I predict the allies will have lots of bases with no supply by mid to late 1943. Additionally at least half their air units will simply be sitting idle at rear area bases for lack of sufficient supply.

By trying to fix the first 4-6 months, I suspect you've broken the last 18-24 months. I agree supply is too abundant early on, but too much is better than too little in my opinion.

Besides all of India's supply is now subject to Sub interdiction (in very confined waters I would add), so cut India’s daily supply that actually arrives to bases for use by another 30% or more from what the original poster stated given the fact SEAC lacks sufficient destroyers to fight a determined Japanese sub offensive till very late in the war.

As a mod to standard WitP I'd cut on hand supply to almost nil at the big rear area supply bases, and then cut daily by about 10-15% from levels in standard WitP. I think the current cuts are far too much. I wish there was a way to run some 1944 turns and track total supply usage, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. The allies have a ton of stuff by the end of 1943 and they are going to need a lot more supply to use it all then what CHS provides currently.

Jim


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RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 2:39:17 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Jim,

I have a scenario 15 game vs IJ AI in 1944. If you would like I will send you a save. PM me if you want an email.

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Post #: 6
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 7:30:46 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
The problem here is there are simply too few supplies now for 1943 and beyond.


That may be true. If it is, then we do have a trick up our sleeve. It is possible to set arrival dates for bases, so we could add several new generic bases adjacent to the current "United States" base. We could have one appear each year, with its own daily fuel and supplies, and even factories (I think - not tested).

quote:

Besides all of India's supply is now subject to Sub interdiction (in very confined waters I would add), so cut India’s daily supply that actually arrives to bases for use by another 30% or more from what the original poster stated given the fact SEAC lacks sufficient destroyers to fight a determined Japanese sub offensive till very late in the war.



This concern has been raised several times. The confined waters work both ways - Allied ASW forces should find it much easier to locate Japanese subs. In any case, if this really does become a problem, and I have yet to hear from anyone playing CHS that does consider it a problem in actual gameplay, then the seas in the "channels" to the off-map bases can be made shallow water, which should help. Please let us know if this becomes a problem in your CHS game.

Andrew

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Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website


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Post #: 7
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 8:13:54 AM   
velkro


Posts: 118
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline 		OK thanks for reply. Although it will take some time to play out, I suspect Mr. Burns' opinions will bear true. Right now in late Dec '41 CHS 1.00 and patch 1.60, Allies have ships stacking up in ME and Aden, waiting for units/fuel/supply to show up. The Japanese player can really shoot the moon in early '42 now because it seems Allies have almost nuttin' to counter with. This is indeed historical, but since the Japanese player has the benefit of hindsight, it should be pretty interesting to see how it plays out in a game setting. My turns are pretty boring because I have hardly anything to move around the map (until the ANZAC issue gets fixed, even my Aussie air units are frozen).

In my previous stock scen 15 games before patch 1.60, supplies were maxxed out on the West Coast at about Jun 42, but the limiting factor then was West Coast shipping. Karachi, I believe, maxxed out supplies at around Oct 42 (I'm talking 999,999) in those games. It seems that a cut was indeed in order, so you have that part right...probably need more feedback from the field of CHSers as their games progress into late 42.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 8
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 10:28:05 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velkro

24,500



One other thing I think perhaps was overlooked. Based on the big consumption numbers at these bases in the CHS PBEM game I just halted in late Dec 41:

Prince Rupert___31231
Vancouver_____31203
Victoria_______31582
Seattle_______38825
Portland______30974
San Francisco_41024
Los Angeles___38530
San Diego____31851


Total used___275220 month
Daily usage____9174

There are only about 15326 (24,500 - 9,174 = 15,326) supplies per day available for the US to use outside of the west coast. There are many other bases in North America, but I just added up the big consumers. I'd say there is barely enough supply for 1941, but definitely not enough for 1942 and beyond.

How about starting it at 10k (over west coast needs) per day and adding a 10k base each year starting with 1942? So reduce the above 24,500 to 20k then add a 10k base in January of each year of the war.

Jim



< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 7/10/2005 10:36:33 AM >

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RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 10:32:58 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		ooops


< Message edited by Nomad -- 7/10/2005 10:34:44 AM >

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RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 10:49:52 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		India is a tougher problem. If anyone has a 1944 game going it would really help if they could add up usage in all bases in India, Burma and Malaya. My guess is it far exceeds the 11k or so Available in that theatre under CHS. Perhaps a similar solution of adding a few 10k bases later in the war would work there too.

Jim

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Post #: 11
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 11:30:50 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		Ok I’ve taken some time to look at China’s supply demands and here’s what I’ve come up with. Average monthly consumption numbers for unit types are as follows, these numbers can fluctuate quite a bit, but this is for an average unit doing nothing more than digging in:

HQ_____________190 total of 36 HQ’s = 6840 month
Base Force_______100 total of 18 Base forces = 1800
Division_________276 total of 18 divisions = 4968
Corps___________650 total of 72 Corps = 46800

Total monthly supply consumption for stationary Chinese army = 60408
Total daily usage 2013

Supply production:

Base income = 1200 day (these 4 bases are the supply/300 producing bases)
Resource income = 2220 supply day and 2775 recourses day
Oil income = 1350 oil day
Heavy Industry income = 1350 supply day (assuming oil is distributed perfectly to max production, actual production is far less)
Burma Road income = 500 supply day (I think it’s 500 a day my memory is fuzzy on this)

Total daily supply production = 4770 or 5270 with Burma Road.

So if Japan simply knocks out the resource and heavy industry production, there is only 1700 supply a day with the Burma Road or 1200 a day without to feed an inactive demand of 2013 a day.

China is doomed without a tweak to its supply. I’d recommend less dependence on resource and heavy industry as Japan can kill these with no problem inside of a month or two. Add more base/300 incomes or increase the 4 - 300 bases to 800 or so.

Remember all these usage numbers are for inactive Chinese units, combat significantly increases demands.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 7/10/2005 11:32:08 AM >

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RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 11:16:03 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Jim,

Here you go.

Allies vs AI May 18, 1944
Stock Scenario 15
Started under v.150, upgraded through all Open Beta patches to v1.60

Here are the SEAC "Supplies Required" for all bases and units outside of bases (only 3 small units right now). Note, Only 2 small units are in combat, and the figures below have been adjusted so those units are the same as identical units not in combat (the difference to the overall total is minor in any event). In other words, the figures given here account for no ground combat underway. I am assuming the figure given in the menus is monthly, so I am then dividing by 30 to get a daily figure.

Total Supplies Required SEAC area only:
110,004 Monthly
3,667 Daily

Notes:
- No ground combat underway.
- Does not account for ship repair or upgrade.
- Does not account for ship resupply.
- Does not account for base building (airfields, ports, fortifications).
- Does not account for 4 x 48 B-29 SEAC bombers, which are temporarily in China.
- Does this account for bombing and other air missions underway? I do not know.
- Does this account for the supplies I airlift into China? I do not know.
- Does account for the 9 SEAC Chinese divisions (currently in Burma, holding the Burma Road).

I hope this data is useful.

PS: I should mention, if those 2 small units that I adjusted for are an accurate indicator, units in combat would use a little more than 5 x the number of supplies as when filled out and at rest. [The monthly numbers for them are Combat=608, NoCombat=120]

< Message edited by witpqs -- 7/10/2005 11:22:31 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 11:35:07 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

That may be true. If it is, then we do have a trick up our sleeve. It is possible to set arrival dates for bases, so we could add several new generic bases adjacent to the current "United States" base. We could have one appear each year, with its own daily fuel and supplies, and even factories (I think - not tested).



The only real problem is those of us in PBEM games. If it proves out to be too little supply it will not be possible
to add some bases to an ongoing game. Or do you have another trick up your very large sleeves?


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Post #: 14
RE: Daily Supply CHS/Stock - 7/10/2005 11:54:03 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		China has always been an issue since WitP was released, viz giving out prep points and such.

Static units was mooted a long time ago as a solution, maybe it should be (finally) tried out for real, it seems like a fair solution.

I think even that would carry risks though, aren't static units destroyed if forced to retreat? I think if you want to go that route you should bunch them up in a few key cities, Chungking and Sian probably, rather than scatter them around to be picked off (and destroyed) one by one without a counter possible.

Spreading them around on the rail line would seem to be a really bad idea.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 15
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