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CoG and EiA

 
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CoG and EiA - 7/4/2005 3:16:43 AM   
wodin


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Joined: 4/20/2003
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Status: offline 		What are the differences between these two games?

CoG looks very good indeed. However it has some aspects Im not normally to bothered about.

So could you tell me the differences between the two.

Thanks

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/4/2005 10:02:20 PM >

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/4/2005 10:01:41 PM   
wodin


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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/5/2005 6:58:03 AM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		Both take a bit of reading. Certainly EIA does.

However whatever I will say is going to be biased as I am more geared towards EiA so.... I will wait until someone gets into an 'CoG is better than EiA' debate, then i'll put my biased 2 cents forward.



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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/5/2005 3:04:58 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
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From: England
Status: offline 		What are the major differences in gameplay though?

Im not to sure I want a game that has to much resource worries. CoG seems one of those you games where you have to alloct manpower to productin etc etc. I dont mind that as a secondary to the actual battles but not as the major part of play.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/5/2005 3:35:18 PM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		Three things to keep track of.

1 Manpower
2 Gold
3 Victory points.

You need manpower to build armies. However, gold also is needed. Furthermore, once you have a corps, or fleet you need money even still just to maintain it to keep it efficient. In the end though, the victory points is the main part of the game, if you don't reach your quota in time, you lose.

Technically, in EiA you can win without even having to fight one war. Due to the shifting diplomacy.


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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/5/2005 7:05:41 PM   
argaur


Posts: 277
Joined: 5/13/2005
From: Spain
Status: offline 		In general CoG is "better" for me due to economics, and this will complete the diplomacy, in EiA the economics are very basic, and you center on military and diplomacy.

For me the perfect game would be a mix of both, military of EiA and economics and diplomacy of CoG.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/5/2005 7:22:14 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline 		I think the problem in getting a comparison wodin is that the pool of people who have actually tried both is likely very very very small. The only people who could have tried both are EiA beta testers who have bought CoG. While I strongly suspect such people exist, I am less certain that the testers would identify themselves by posting in this forum and advertise that after having been given the honor of being a tester their attentions have wandered elsewhere just as this title nears release. I suppose EiA developers might have tried CoG, but they likely haven't had the time to do much with it and even if they did they wouldn't want to shift focus away from their product right now. Apart from those few people with direct experience, anyone giving an opinion is doing no better than we could do by reviewing the websites and making some total guesses. However, if you wait until a few days after EiA is released, I think you'll find a very different situation and that there will be no shortage of opinions on how they are different and which is "better" (note the quotes as that is definitely a subjective determination that won't be the same for everyone).

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/5/2005 7:31:59 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain

I think the problem in getting a comparison wodin is that the pool of people who have actually tried both is likely very very very small. The only people who could have tried both are EiA beta testers who have bought CoG. While I strongly suspect such people exist, I am less certain that the testers would identify themselves by posting in this forum and advertise that after having been given the honor of being a tester their attentions have wandered elsewhere just as this title nears release. I suppose EiA developers might have tried CoG, but they likely haven't had the time to do much with it and even if they did they wouldn't want to shift focus away from their product right now. Apart from those few people with direct experience, anyone giving an opinion is doing no better than we could do by reviewing the websites and making some total guesses. However, if you wait until a few days after EiA is released, I think you'll find a very different situation and that there will be no shortage of opinions on how they are different and which is "better" (note the quotes as that is definitely a subjective determination that won't be the same for everyone).


I understand that. I just thought the game description on awhole may be different.

I like the idea of a slightly more basic economic route and focus on the military side. SO EiA maybe the one for me.



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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/5/2005 9:37:13 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline 		I'll assume you've seen THE GAMES WEBPAGE. The description and screenshots give some impression as to the flavor, though it's still mostly guesswork as to how it compares.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/5/2005 10:19:40 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain

I'll assume you've seen THE GAMES WEBPAGE. The description and screenshots give some impression as to the flavor, though it's still mostly guesswork as to how it compares.


Yes Ive seen them. Look very similar though EiA seems more military based.

EiA is the game for me I think.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/6/2005 6:18:05 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
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From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		I'm playing CoG but I will definitely be getting EiA. CoG is ok, but as Napoleon I just don't see myself being bothered by the amount of textiles I am producing. Sure I can transfer that area of responsibility to the AI advisor, but I don't trust AI advisors to do squat, so I fiddle with individual merchant ships and other economic minutia like improving each individual province when I should be stragedidizing on a grand scale instead.

CoG will whet my appetite for EiA and serve as an acceptable interrim substitute.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/6/2005 9:31:56 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

I'm playing CoG but I will definitely be getting EiA. CoG is ok, but as Napoleon I just don't see myself being bothered by the amount of textiles I am producing. Sure I can transfer that area of responsibility to the AI advisor, but I don't trust AI advisors to do squat, so I fiddle with individual merchant ships and other economic minutia like improving each individual province when I should be stragedidizing on a grand scale instead.

CoG will whet my appetite for EiA and serve as an acceptable interrim substitute.


Thats what I wanted to know. Thanks.

So how long away are we??

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/6/2005 10:05:51 PM   
Hoche


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Status: offline 		Carnifex your avatar is too cool.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/6/2005 11:10:16 PM   
carnifex


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very useful site http://www.isimulacrum.com/Scans.php

http://www.thewargamer.com/Scans/EmpiresInArms_AH4.jpg

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Post #: 14
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/11/2005 6:39:25 PM   
9thlegere


Posts: 39
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Just to really worry everyone, I have got COG and was enjoying it but it crashed often. Now I have a good system and keept it well upto date/clean.

I wondered why I ketp on getting same error message, when to check out tech support and guess what.....

loads of other people suffering the same crashes and there is no fix as yet. So, unless COG gets sorted fast I won't buy EIA from matrix as it if this anything to go by I don't want to waste the cash.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/11/2005 7:13:15 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 9thlegere

Just to really worry everyone, I have got COG and was enjoying it but it crashed often. Now I have a good system and keept it well upto date/clean.

I wondered why I ketp on getting same error message, when to check out tech support and guess what.....

loads of other people suffering the same crashes and there is no fix as yet. So, unless COG gets sorted fast I won't buy EIA from matrix as it if this anything to go by I don't want to waste the cash.


You must remember that Matrix isnt the game dveloper of most of the games here. They produce the game.

So one game dosnt reflect on any other.

The support is also fantatsic on all games prodiced so far.

One thing that cant be said about Matrix is that they never update patch their games ASAP.

Just because there are problems with CoG it has NO relevance to EiA.

I see your new to the forum and prob Matrix as awhole so your not to know this.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/11/2005 7:38:04 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		My CoG hasn't crashed once on three very different machines so the experience might differ. It's much more stable for me than the comparable Europa Universalis series was at launch.

I'm much more interested in seeing how the folks who brought us CoG fill in the gaping holes in the documentation as well as fixing actual gameplay bugs.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/11/2005 10:15:45 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 9thlegere

Just to really worry everyone, I have got COG and was enjoying it but it crashed often. Now I have a good system and keept it well upto date/clean.

I wondered why I ketp on getting same error message, when to check out tech support and guess what.....

loads of other people suffering the same crashes and there is no fix as yet. So, unless COG gets sorted fast I won't buy EIA from matrix as it if this anything to go by I don't want to waste the cash.


I, too, am experiencing multiple CTDs, but Matrix' track record on these type of things is excellent. They will get it sorted out eventually.

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Post #: 18
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/11/2005 11:35:06 PM   
9thlegere


Posts: 39
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I am not new to the boards, I just seldom post.....

I have been looking here every week for some time.

As the only other game I have bought from Matrix(yes I bought it all those years ago!!) was Steel panthers I suppose I am being a little harsh but I am getting a little frustrated. I am very much looking forward to EIA for the PC and thought COG may keep me going till then but I am put off by the crashing.

You are completely correct in saying that it is a not the same guys but still, it has put the nagging doubt there I'm afraid. Too many burnt fingers with Napoleon on the PC, that 1813 game being so buggy as to be a joke.

All in all, I am just getting frustrated that with all todays PC power there aint really one good Napoleonic game.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/12/2005 2:03:06 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 9thlegere

I am not new to the boards, I just seldom post.....

I have been looking here every week for some time.

As the only other game I have bought from Matrix(yes I bought it all those years ago!!) was Steel panthers I suppose I am being a little harsh but I am getting a little frustrated. I am very much looking forward to EIA for the PC and thought COG may keep me going till then but I am put off by the crashing.

You are completely correct in saying that it is a not the same guys but still, it has put the nagging doubt there I'm afraid. Too many burnt fingers with Napoleon on the PC, that 1813 game being so buggy as to be a joke.

All in all, I am just getting frustrated that with all todays PC power there aint really one good Napoleonic game.


No worries.

Battles of Napoleon is being worked onn aswell so things are looking up.
All of the games Ive bought from Matrix.......HTTR,KP,BiI have worked fine.

Why not try one of the HPS games. I own several Squad Battles games and one PzC and they are could PBEM games.

I was a SB addict for awhile but the restricted system eventually got to me.

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/12/2005 2:04:49 AM >

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/12/2005 4:09:54 AM   
Reiryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 9thlegere

I am not new to the boards, I just seldom post.....

I have been looking here every week for some time.

As the only other game I have bought from Matrix(yes I bought it all those years ago!!) was Steel panthers I suppose I am being a little harsh but I am getting a little frustrated. I am very much looking forward to EIA for the PC and thought COG may keep me going till then but I am put off by the crashing.

You are completely correct in saying that it is a not the same guys but still, it has put the nagging doubt there I'm afraid. Too many burnt fingers with Napoleon on the PC, that 1813 game being so buggy as to be a joke.

All in all, I am just getting frustrated that with all todays PC power there aint really one good Napoleonic game.


Huh?

CoG is a great game... While you may be having difficulties with detailed battles for now, the game should still be playable using quick combat and it's still very fun.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/12/2005 3:29:25 PM   
9thlegere


Posts: 39
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From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I am not the only one having problems and why should I only use the quick battles?

You buy a product with the expectation it will work.

Small bugs and odd things I can cope with , take Civ3 for example. It was released and had plenty of bugs but the orginal version still works without major crashes, the patches just iron out the small faults.

COG could be a great game if they can sort out this error that myself and others are having.

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Post #: 22
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/12/2005 6:23:01 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
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Status: offline 		I am shelving CoG for a while. As a matter of fact, I'm sorry I bought the game and won't recommend it unless several things change.

1) The damn manual sucks. Whole sections are totally missing, or unexplained with any detail. I was trying to learn the game and it was a totally frustrating experience. I have Americans declaring war on me - no Americans in the manual. How is waste generated and how do you control it? Beats me! There are tons of other examples.

2) The interface is cruel and unforgiving. I can't alt-tab out to read the manual. I have 55 provinces to administer, each with like 10 improvements and a half dozen sliders to manage. Is there a report screen where I can sort stuff? No. I have to individually manage all of them, nearly every turn, by clicking next/previous province. Can I sort my trades? No, I have to hunt for them in the trade screen. Can I pause quick battles or step through them? No, of course not, they wouldn't be quick otherwise, right (/snicker)?

Also, everything in the game is final. You click it, you bought it, you moved it, etc. There is absolutely no undo. I am constantly unintentionally moving units, leaders, and ships because of the crummy interface.

3) Bugs. Last month my display told me next turns income would be 134223 gold. Then my newly built Corps disappeared. Etc.

Anyway, bugs don't really bother me much because that's what patches are for. But the interface is harder to patch, and I really don't feel like scouring the forums for bits and pieces of documentation that should have been included in the game to begin with.

Marshall Ellis, if you are reading this, please take note. The game must prosper BECAUSE of it's interface, not in SPITE of it. This seems to be a trend with small developers. They get all wrapped up in the gameplay, but forget that in order to enjoy that gameplay the gamer must interact with the interface continuously. Every second of every moment that I am in the game, I am clicking this, opening that, getting information on this. If I can't get to that information quickly and issue my orders without thirty clicks then what the hell does it matter if I pull off a successful outflank.

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RE: CoG and EiA - 7/12/2005 8:21:53 PM   
9thlegere


Posts: 39
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		As am I "shelfing" my COG as it is potentially very good but ultimatley deeply frustrating, especially when it crashes!

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Post #: 24
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/12/2005 9:54:10 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline 		I hate to say that, I too, have shelved CoG for the time being. I'm pinning my hopes on EiA now...

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Post #: 25
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/13/2005 12:58:03 AM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		Well I have not shelved CoG yet but I do understand where all the frustration is coming from....perhaps the reason I have not given up on the game is that I am taking my time learning all the features by playing Sweden in small scenarios, losing every time, but no matter as I slowly climb the learning curve with a really inadequate manual.....I would not even bother trying to play France, Russia ect. right out of the box but I realize that many people want to do just that which will make this game difficult to enjoy.....I await EiA like most people here but do not think I wasted my money on CoG.....

There is one lesson learned however which hopefully Marshall and the EiA crew are aware of: The problem with game designers writing manuals is that they have such a working knowledge of the game, that many rules and issues, ingrained in their subconscious, never see print. They playtest the game so often that many game rules and procedures are taken for granted.... for example, try explaining the rules of baseball to someone who has never seen a game. You will overlook so many rules because they are so obvious to you, but by not explaining these nuances, makes the game seem more confusing to a newcomer. Now apply this to the arcane retreat rules in CoG which is confusing many people, but testers are helping to clarify.....as an earlier poster indicated, there are so many rule explanations scattered about the CoG forum that if one took the time to cull these fragments into a cohesive narrative, you would have a hell of a supplement to the original manual which would make the game much easier to play right out of the box....

Perhaps there should be a manual testing beta team organized when this, or any game, is almost completed. Their job would be to learn the game from the manual and question all of the areas that are confusing. These testers would not have played the game previously, and their only job would be to run the manual through the paces and see if they understand all the aspects of gameplay.....the manual could then be edited and updated accordingly to clarify any issues. The end result is a better manual and gaming experience for everyone....the testers who have played the game cannot really do this adequately, because they subconciously fill in the blanks without realizing it....that's not meant as a knock, just an acknowledgment of a byproduct from continuous playtesting...

Oh, and if Matrix felt that giving the manual beta testing team a free game for just doing this one job would be too much, then a 50% reduction in the price would be adequate compensation!....

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 7/13/2005 1:10:11 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/13/2005 2:02:48 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Such a shame. The first impressions where fantastic.

Still thats why I always wait a week or so.

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Post #: 27
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/13/2005 6:31:12 AM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		So I take it that CoG is a bust? This is what it is sounding like from everyone on here. Good, cuz I almost thought about it. What was the other game Matrix put out that was a bust, like Iron Hearts or Hearts of Iron or something like that?

I just hope EiA isn't a bust (especially considering it has so many EiH additions). Crossing my fingers.

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Post #: 28
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/13/2005 7:15:44 AM   
Pippin


Posts: 1233
Joined: 11/9/2002
Status: offline 		Not that EiA will have documentation on the same level as COG, but assuming it was, I don't think we'd have to worry. EiA is a well known game, and many rules manuals are scattered around the internet regarding the game. True, there are numerous rule changes here and there, and even EiA under MG is mixing some features across versions, the game is not going to vary TOO much.



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Post #: 29
RE: CoG and EiA - 7/13/2005 8:31:30 AM   
Jordan

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		From Marshall Ellis

Hey guys:

Will EiA need a patch? You bet! AND yes it will be more than one! Why? Because EVEN if you've tackled ALL of the bugs (Which you will not) then you will always have improvements that can be made and if you can offer improvements to a product without your customer having to buy another product then that my friends is called customer service and I personally think Matrix is doing a great job in this area. The developers tend to work harder after release than they do before. I was never aware of a policy or preference against patches at Matrix???

Simple board rules? WOW! The 48 pages in the rule book are what makes this thing a monster. A lot of interpretation in this game that makes it quite complex (At least for me) then add the EiH system and you get genuine migraines! How long does it take? As long as it takes is my answer.

In fairness, a couple of months could be a couple of years. My ability to predict the results of a design or piece of code make it difficult to comply with a timeline.

Thank you

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Post #: 30
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