Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Impresions about detailed combat...

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Napoleonics] >> Crown of Glory >> Impresions about detailed combat... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 12:41:23 PM   
Alaric_31

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		greetings, i have fought my first battles in detailed combat, i like very much the feature in that artillery cannot be attacked by enemy when adyacent to own infantry and cavalry units, it is missing in other games about tactical napoleonic battles, the morale impact system is very good, and military units morale by nation is just wonderful, i have found the best way to use cavalry is to "supress" or "pinned down" enemy units forming emergency squares, then this give time to move and form in line your own troops and artillery and butcher the enemy infantry, i see it as a "combined arms" feature and like it very much, read some posts from other forumers that think infantry must make a check to have a chance to be disordered some times when charged by cavalry, can't agree with it, it is enough the reduced capabilities of a infantry in square facing cavalry each turn and posibly infantry in line and artillery firing to them, it's only what i think, and want to share it with the forum, not all of we can think the same about all, and everyone see the tactical system from a different point of view.

with best regards,

alaric.

_____________________________

There is no plan of battle that survives the contact with the enemy.
Post #: 1
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 3:47:52 PM   
Malagant

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline 		Alaric,

The problem is that sometimes when charged by cavalry infantry do NOT form square..then the cavalry unit takes huge casualties (~2k), while the infantry takes light casualties (~200).

This does not happen often, usually the infantry succeed in forming square, but I find myself hoping and praying everytime the enemy charges that my infantry do not form square...

(in reply to Alaric_31)
Post #: 2
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 4:23:51 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		Infantry don't usually deal large amounts of damage to cavalry charging them when they fail to form impromptu squares, especially if the cavalry are charging on their flanks/rear. Charges against formed units are, however, meant to be unpredictable, and occasionally a cavalry charge against formed infantry goes very badly for the cavalry.


Eric

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 3
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 4:30:49 PM   
Malagant

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline 		With all due respect, Eric, in my experiences with the game it is more than 'occasionally', it's more like 'usually'...maybe even 'almost always'. Frequently enough that I cross my fingers and zealously pray that when the cavalry comes charging my infantry holds the line and breaks the cavalry in one go

I wouldn't post about it if it weren't something that I'd seen happen numerous times. I'm not the only one that's made a post regarding this behavior. I understand that cavalry charges should be unpredictable, but I'm not talking about unpredictability, I'm talking about cavalry that is decimated and routed because it charged an infantry column in the flank (as an example) on many different occasions...not rarely, not occasionaly, but almost always.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 4
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 5:24:17 PM   
Alaric_31

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		hello friends, Malagant, i think you play a nation with low morale in his main body armies, as turkey or spain, i think this is the problem, maybe.
Some, almost all nations with decent morale ratings, at least in my detailed battles don't fail to form emergency squares, and some turns after turns, too must say that i don't can understand what is exactly your point... strengthend infantry or cavalry? maybe we can "mod" it with the defense multiplier in the "master" file, in c\crown of glory\data, not know how exactly work this parameter, however milita has 0.8 and majority of units have a value of 1, but maybe cannot be hard to mod it and make some units more or less tough or weak.

Eric, please if have time, can you explain how this parameter works? it affect to received fire, melee or both?

thanks in advance,

with best regards,

alaric.

my main point is that given the high resources cost and the hard to recover from disordered for cavalry, the advantage, if any must be
to the cavalry.

< Message edited by Alaric_31 -- 7/13/2005 5:26:13 PM >

_____________________________

There is no plan of battle that survives the contact with the enemy.

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 5
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 5:36:59 PM   
Malagant

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline 		I've only ever played France. I seldom have 'low' morale units. And if they WERE low morale units that failed to form square when charged by cavalry, they most certainly should NOT repulse the cavalry charge inflicting thousands of losses on the cavalry while only losing a few hundred themselves!!

As to my point, I think cavalry should be more decisive when charging non-square infantry. Your points about relative cost and ease of recovering from being disordered are right on, and reenforce my opinion.

I think as much as they cost, their relative build times, and the fact that after charging the cavalry will likely be out of action for a long time, if cavalry charges infantry that does not form square, the cavalry should 'win' more often than not...inflict severe loss with good chance of disorder, or at least 'shaken' being inflicted upon the receiving infantry...not take 20-30% losses and have the infantry laugh at them. Why would infantry want to form square and make themselves more vulnerable to ranged damage when they can just stand in column in the middle of a field and invite the enemy cavalry to their deaths?

<edit> And if nothing else, can the AI be smartened up to not blindly charge with his cavalry with no supporting Infantry or artillery? That cavalry are so easily repulsed wouldn't bother me so much if the cavalry's attack were done with a modicum of coordination with the rest of the AI's army. Is Ney himself leading all these unsupported cavalry charges!?

< Message edited by Malagant -- 7/13/2005 5:41:11 PM >

(in reply to Alaric_31)
Post #: 6
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 6:04:09 PM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I have posted in other threads about this also.

From my experience 90% of the time or so infantry will form square against cav carges. The other 10% the cav will take 100% of the time massive damage while the infantry is still in order and almost unhurt. I know that it should happen sometimes that a formed infantry unit will repulse a cav charge well, especialy if you hit them in the front. But thats the keyword, sometimes, it happens all the time, if square is not formed. Also a infantry that is fomed that is hit by Cav, specialy heavy or lancer in the rear flank or even the rear hex should 90% of the time be horribly decimated. There where two situations that any infantry feared more then anything.

1. Being in square formation and attracting the attention of enemy artillery or volley fire from infantry in line. Horrible outcome.
2. Being charged into the flank or rear by enemy cavalry. So devestating because the front guys did not even know what was happening till some big french Curass was hacking of the head of the guy next to him.

Cav attacks need some rethinking from the current state, especialy since the AI's Cav currently is spend in most fights doing the useless charge/form Square scenario at the beginning of the battle.

Cav would not charge a formed infantry in the front unless there was infantry to support it, or unless you where lead by Ney.

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 7
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 6:10:55 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		what Diff level are you guys playing on ?

think that may cause some of what you are seeing ?

on normal, I have not had much trouble with Cav, vs column, I do get some heavy losses, but then so do the Inf (but I do try and save the Cav for the broken units)

HARD_Sarge


_____________________________


(in reply to ahauschild)
Post #: 8
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 6:18:02 PM   
Malagant

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline 		I've been playing on Normal, frankly because I'm overwelmed by the number of difficulty setting options that aren't well documented at all :) Normal seems like a safe bet.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 9
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 6:22:31 PM   
Alaric_31

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		maybe the exact system will be two morale checks when a side orders a cavalry charge, a check for cavalry that if it fails become disordered, and another check for the infantry/artillery being charged at, there are some divergence in my thinking about this and my experience, know that is reasonable that a failed check by infantry don't must be "rewarded" but came to sense too that cavalry charges must be given some uncertaintly to suceed, as say by Eric, an always sucessfull cavalry is not a good thing, and given my experience in other tactical napoleonic games very much people are sad of powerfull unbeatable cavalry.

best regards,

alaric.

_____________________________

There is no plan of battle that survives the contact with the enemy.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 10
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 8:46:22 PM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Actuly, I think there should be the following sequence.

Situation, Regular Moral 6 Line Infantry in Line or Colum on one side, Regular moral 6 Cav on the other.

Cav moves next to the Inf and initiates the charge.
Cav checks to see if it charges. If failed, it shakes, or worst case disorders.
Inf Checks if it Will receive the chage, or try to form square, pending on moral and hex facing charge is coming from.


Inf receives charge, option choosen, Inf will fire one volley at cav, without return from cav. Cav checks moral to maintain charge.
Inf and Cav melee, Cav having bonus to melee as they impact, also pending on Hex side facing should get bonus or negative to melee.
After melee both sides should have strong chance of being disordered, as melee does that to you.

Inf forms Square option choosen, Inf will fire volley at cav without return.
Cav will have high chance of breaking of charge, either being shaken or disrupted, only Lancers should actuly have high chance of continiue charge.
If charge is continiued for lancers melee follows, with a offenssive bonus to inf and lancer, both doing and receiving massive damage.

This is kinda how I would envision it. And the direction versus facing should have a strong impact on all this rolls, as otherwise the facing of a unit is pretty irrelevant. Part of the charm in nap games is that you have to always protect your flank and rear, what is the purpose of this if a rear attack is not devestating.

(in reply to Alaric_31)
Post #: 11
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 9:00:37 PM   
Malagant

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 3/13/2004
Status: offline 		IMO, if infantry choose to not form square, they should have to make a morale check. If they fail, they're disordered, and the cavalry drive home with the expected results of heavy infantry losses (with the usual chance for cavalry to maintain order when charging disordered units). If the infantry does stay in good order, the resulting melee should result in moderate casualties to both, with the cavalry having large advantage if charging from flank or rear.

(in reply to ahauschild)
Post #: 12
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 9:14:55 PM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		That would work for me. I just dont agree at all with the current system of only two predominant outcomes.

One is they form square, and nothing happens. I have never once seen a Infantry unit go disordered trying to form square, in fact I think they form square to often period. This was a pretty hard thing to do and at most should have a 50% success.

The other is they dont form square and slaughter the Cav. Every single time.

With the current system, I wonder why the infantry even bothers to form square, since they do more damge to the cav then they could ever expect to do in most other circumstances. Currently it does not matter if they are charged in the rear, in the front, in the side, by heavy or light, by lancer or Irr. They will slaughter them every time by not forming square, so why form square.

At least this is what I have seen so far 100% of the time, and I have played by now probl 80 to 100 major engangements with all type of moral units on both sides.

I understand also for flanking purposes that this is a division level game, but why have unit facing if it does not SEEM to matter in this cases.
I know it matters in volley fire, but it does not seem to matter much for the receiving party in melee combat.

(in reply to Malagant)
Post #: 13
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 9:19:28 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:


The other is they dont form square and slaughter the Cav. Every single time.

I know it matters in volley fire, but it does not seem to matter much for the receiving party in melee combat.


I'd be interested in feedback from other players on this. I don't see the "every single time" that you are seeing.

Facing does matter less in charge combat than it does in fire combat, though it is still a factor.


Eric


(in reply to ahauschild)
Post #: 14
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 9:53:48 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline 		Personally, I am enjoying the combat dynamics as they are. Each unit type has roles where they excel and you need a mixed force to be successful. I would hate for cavalry to become so powerful that people just began building entire armies of horsemen. And if a charge against infantry in formation had a 50% chance of disrupting and slaughtering them, I am afraid we'd see a general (and completely ahistorical) shift away from using infantry at all as they would be too slow and too fragile.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 15
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 9:58:05 PM   
GreenDestiny


Posts: 177
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Alamogordo NM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe
I'd be interested in feedback from other players on this. I don't see the "every single time" that you are seeing.

Facing does matter less in charge combat than it does in fire combat, though it is still a factor.


Eric




I think infantry in column formation and attack from the flank or rear should take heavy losses from a cavalry charge(but this hardly ever happens). Infantry in line formations and attack from the flank and rear should be bloody for both sides but more for the infantry. And Infantry in square formation should inflict heavy losses to the charging cavalry and not just have it stop before it gets there with no losses to either side.

I think facing should be more of a factor in both combats.

I would also like to see a button just for cavalry charges that highlight a path of hexes to a target. And if you click on the target the charge will start.




_____________________________


(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 16
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/13/2005 10:01:54 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain

Personally, I am enjoying the combat dynamics as they are. Each unit type has roles where they excel and you need a mixed force to be successful. I would hate for cavalry to become so powerful that people just began building entire armies of horsemen. And if a charge against infantry in formation had a 50% chance of disrupting and slaughtering them, I am afraid we'd see a general (and completely ahistorical) shift away from using infantry at all as they would be too slow and too fragile.


I agree with this opinion.

I enjoy the combat model as is. The only tweak, aside from AI issues, would be to see less damage from a frontal assault to the cavalry. I often see the cavalry get hit for 2k damage and would think it more appropriate to less damage but a greater morale loss.

_____________________________


(in reply to jchastain)
Post #: 17
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/14/2005 12:59:58 PM   
GreenDestiny


Posts: 177
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Alamogordo NM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
I enjoy the combat model as is. The only tweak, aside from AI issues, would be to see less damage from a frontal assault to the cavalry. I often see the cavalry get hit for 2k damage and would think it more appropriate to less damage but a greater morale loss.


It's not about frontal assault!!!... it's about flank and rear assault. The 2k + thing happens alot in my games, not all the time but enough. And when people say that this hardly ever happens in their game. Then I wonder if I am playing the same version of the game that they are.

(in reply to Reiryc)
Post #: 18
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/14/2005 6:11:53 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		Make sure you're not charging with fatigued cavalry?

(in reply to GreenDestiny)
Post #: 19
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/14/2005 6:48:25 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
I enjoy the combat model as is. The only tweak, aside from AI issues, would be to see less damage from a frontal assault to the cavalry. I often see the cavalry get hit for 2k damage and would think it more appropriate to less damage but a greater morale loss.


It's not about frontal assault!!!... it's about flank and rear assault. The 2k + thing happens alot in my games, not all the time but enough. And when people say that this hardly ever happens in their game. Then I wonder if I am playing the same version of the game that they are.



I dunno... I don't see a lot of 2k dmg to my cavalry when hitting a rear flank or the rear of an enemy infantry formation.

I have seen it, but it was when my cavalry charged while they were shaken and fatigued. So it was a bad time to charge.

_____________________________


(in reply to GreenDestiny)
Post #: 20
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 2:25:19 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe


quote:


The other is they dont form square and slaughter the Cav. Every single time.

I know it matters in volley fire, but it does not seem to matter much for the receiving party in melee combat.


I'd be interested in feedback from other players on this. I don't see the "every single time" that you are seeing.

Facing does matter less in charge combat than it does in fire combat, though it is still a factor.


Eric




I see this lots in my games as well. Calvary charging infantry and always getting 100 or so infantry casualties vs 2000 cavalry casualties....

Tends to always break the AI's morale....

_____________________________


(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 21
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 2:46:38 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alaric_31

i like very much the feature in that artillery cannot be attacked by enemy when adyacent to own infantry and cavalry units,
alaric.


also is this true??? this changes everything!!!

_____________________________


(in reply to Alaric_31)
Post #: 22
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 3:19:40 AM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		If the charging unit is next to an ememy formed unit, it cannot charge supply or artillery. You kinda have to pick, do you want your artillery not flanked by your own inf, and have better arc of fire, or do you wish to have it protected, and therby lose arc of fire.

Also you cannot charge across rivers, good place for art.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 23
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 3:23:30 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ahauschild

If the charging unit is next to an ememy formed unit, it cannot charge supply or artillery. You kinda have to pick, do you want your artillery not flanked by your own inf, and have better arc of fire, or do you wish to have it protected, and therby lose arc of fire.

Also you cannot charge across rivers, good place for art.


ah big difference here...

he said artillery could not be attacked. you said it could not be charged...

so which is it??? if artillery can still be attacked but not charged i still would prefer to keep it behind the lines....


_____________________________


(in reply to ahauschild)
Post #: 24
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 5:18:16 AM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline 		Artillary with adjacent infantry can be attacked, but not charged. Still, I often find it to be quite effective to place it in the line, especially when facing north or south so that it can be slightly behind the infantry yet with plenty of visibility for firing as shown below.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 25
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 10:17:56 AM   
Alaric_31

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		it is my failure, yes, you can fire to artillery adyacent to any unit, but not can charge it, i have explain it bad, sorry about it,

with best regards,

alaric.

_____________________________

There is no plan of battle that survives the contact with the enemy.

(in reply to jchastain)
Post #: 26
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 2:05:24 PM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		You can always Attack/Fire at any unit that you have line of sight to, no matter if adjacent or not. Actuly I believe you can fire through artillery into a unit behind it.

You cannot Charge Artillery if at the time of charge a formed enemy unit is next to your Charging unit. But firing at artillery, unless you manage to catch them in the rear flank or rear hex is kinda counter productive, as they ussuly fire back at you with much more devestating results. Imagine you run up to a Tiger tank with a 9mm and ping at him, chances are that when he fires back that 88 will hurt you allot more then the 9mm did him.

(in reply to Alaric_31)
Post #: 27
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 6:02:38 PM   
Mr. Z


Posts: 1048
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline 		Say, just out of curiosity, jchastain, what do you use to draw your hexes?

(in reply to ahauschild)
Post #: 28
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 6:12:51 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

Say, just out of curiosity, jchastain, what do you use to draw your hexes?


LOL. Was a quick and very sloppy job. I just went into Powerpoint and slapped that together and then saved it as a JPG.

(in reply to Mr. Z)
Post #: 29
RE: Impresions about detailed combat... - 7/15/2005 6:19:17 PM   
Mr. Z


Posts: 1048
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

LOL. Was a quick and very sloppy job. I just went into Powerpoint and slapped that together and then saved it as a JPG.

Powerpoint! Huh. Interesting

(in reply to jchastain)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Napoleonics] >> Crown of Glory >> Impresions about detailed combat... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.859