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Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$

 
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Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 12:46:03 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		This is complaining! This is whining! Call it whatever! But thatīs far off reality or history.

Iīve got an exciting PBEM going against Wolfpack where this happened: KB sunk two American carriers in a TF without nearly any opposition, the next turn the other TF containing the last three of his carriers are attacking KB which can score a few 250 kg AP bomb hits and a torpedoe hit, but nothing to worry about for Wolfpack. Unlucky as I was the fight happened at a range of 2!!! hexes so SBDs dropped 1000 lb GB bombs and also the torpedoe bombers attacked. My carriers, already reduced in planes, took some hits of course - nothing unexpected up to now - a DD and a CA was hit by a 1000 lb bomb and I took 7 bomb hits and 2 torpedoe hits on my carriers. What do you expect now? Okay 7 1000 lb bombs and two torpedoes on a fleet carrier, okay thatīs a reef! But it wasnīt all on one carrier. One was hit by 3, one by two bombs and the third by 2 bombs and two torpedoes. So the next turn I looked up the damage and saw of course some sys damage (from 30 - 50), some MINOR fires (hey, 1000 lb bombs and minor fires???) and of course FLOOD DAMAGE (20, 28 - these were the ones who "only" were hit by bombs and one with 39 - this was hit by bombs and two torps).

I thought oh **** 3 carriers are out of action for half a year, but I could live with it because my opponent has lost 2 and if he doesnīt attack once again they should make it back, if I would be completly unlucky the one with 39 flood damage could sink. My fleet is far away from a adequate port but with that damage they are supposed to make it. Should I also start another WILL THEY MAKE IT thread before posting this one?

NO, THEY DONīT MAKE IT!!!!!

Flood damage increases 20 points each turn!! So it takes 4 or max 5 turns and ALL three carriers are sunk! Hey, what a victory for my opponent! Or should I say what a sh*t, the Japanese damage control is just wrong rated! It just doesnīt exist in this game. I know that the Japs were not nearly as good as the Allied in fighting fires, but how can you explain three carriers go down with this amount of flood damage. FOW, bad die rolls, no luck, tactical nukes,...? You canīt explain this! I think Ron Saueracker has been involved in a thread recently where he also brought up some good reasons why Japanese damage control shouldnīt be THAT BAD! Ron Saueracker fan boyism! Itīs just not realistic that 7 bombs, even if 1000 lb. GB and two torpedoes sink 3 fleet carriers EASILY! It looks like the ships were abandoned after the hits!

These are not the first carriers Iīve lost, as Iīm playing for a year now, both sides, surely more than 1000 turns. But loosing three for "NOTHING". What am I supposed to do? Donīt send out my carriers more than 5 hexes away from a size 9 port, at best with 200 repair shipyard points? Or wait until they get sunk in port in 44? Like itīs programmed now this would be best, because my opponent has always to fear my carriers! But fearing from what? I donīt want to see the outcome of a 2000 lb GB bomb hit on a carrier by a B17 and the flattop goes booooom - glug glug! Iīve never experienced the loss of my carriers like this, because they were always really hit hard with several bombs and torpedoes and it was obvious that they sink.

What would the guys who are responsible for this game say if we have Allied players complaining about their sunken carriers because they were hit by 5 or 6 250 kg AP bombs?? Never would an Allied player just think about loosing his carrier because of bomb hits in only! Okay, I know there can be circumstances that it could happen - seldom! Donīt bring up the Princton now! They didnīt blow up because of ammo or fuel explosions - look at the starting flood damage. They are going down because of bad, worse, no worst damage control. And the Japanese sailors werenīt THAT bad.

Itīs just like: ALERT, ALERT birds coming towards us! OUCH, we were hit by two pelicans and have two big holes from the flight deck through all stations and this incredible bird also went through the hull! ABANDON, ABANDON, weīre sinking! Admiral, we were hit by special trained 12 kg AP pelicans which inflicted 20 flood damage! Sorry, we werenīt able to keep these three carriers afloat!

I played this game on and on and on and will still play it. Iīm adicted to it. I like it, with all those bugs there were and are, with itīs flaws. I can accept losses, Iīm playing the Japanese side normally and the Japanese side is determined to lose all itīs planes, ships, everything. But itīs a question how they should lose it. I know this thread is probably just for nothing, there wonīt be anything changed, I wonder if I even get an official reply. But the responsible guys should think about, what the Japanese navy was! Japanese sailors werenīt tourists on a banana boat, they were one of the worlds best!





< Message edited by castor troy -- 7/15/2005 12:49:34 PM >
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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:04:11 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		You know, have you considered that you might just be really, really, REALLY unlucky?

I fought a big carrier battle (as the Allies) a few turns back against most of the KB, and only managed to sink two of the Japanese carriers, even though I landed several bombs and torpedoes on all of them. The rest just limped away.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:11:25 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You know, have you considered that you might just be really, really, REALLY unlucky?

I fought a big carrier battle (as the Allies) a few turns back against most of the KB, and only managed to sink two of the Japanese carriers, even though I landed several bombs and torpedoes on all of them. The rest just limped away.



Or perhaps really, really, really, really, really unlucky?

I think thereīs a maximum of unlucky! If I would have been so unlucky that the bombs inflicted ammo and fuel explosions that the ship went off right away thatīs one sort of unlucky (3 carriers??). But with this flood damage? 3 carriers? I think thereīs more a relationship to the damage control than to luck! Itīs just like my carriers all hit a mine and are going down because they were two times unlucky: first time they hit a mine, second time the crew abandoned the ship and didnīt do anything against the flood damage.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:26:22 PM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		Midway -

Hiryu sunk with 4 bomb hits
Akagi sunk with 2 bomb hits
Kaga sunk 4 bomb hits
Soryu sunk with 3 bomb hits

4 carriers 13 bombs.

Source United States Strategic Bombing Survey.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:28:25 PM   
kkoovvoo

 

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Status: offline 		Those hits were critical, as the planes were on the deck and all carriers sunk the same day.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:34:13 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
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From: Austria
Status: offline 		Yeah, my planes were off on an attack and on CAP. I donīt know how WITP handles planes on deck, but I think it doesnīt. And as I said, my ships werenīt heavy damaged!!!!!! They didnīt sink after the battle, they increase flood damage day by day until glug glug! And I donīt know how the damage control is programmed, I just think thereīs something weird.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 7/15/2005 1:35:50 PM >

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:34:28 PM   
Rainerle

 

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From: Burghausen/Bavaria
Status: offline 		Hi,
IMO the concept of damage control is a bit flawed historically. The reason I think so is that the side winning the battle and taking the battlefield prohibits the opposition to show how good their damage control really is. Therefore Japan is credited with supposedly bad damage control cause they didn't get many ships home. That this comes from the fact that they lost most battles and their ships had to suffer more and repeated hits than their american counterparts seems to be overlooked. OTOH when some US ship is limping back with just a few hits under a 200 A/C CAP umbrella the superiour damage control is credited.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:37:55 PM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		Battle of Marianas

CV Taiho sunk 1 Torpedo hit.

I guess you could call it another critical hit. But I see a trend developing with Japanese CV's and critical hits.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:39:33 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		20 June 1944:
On second day of Battle of the Marianas, struck around 1720 by aerial torpedoes; one in the starboard engine room, another "probable" in the port quarter. Fires break out, and went dead in the water, listing to port. Damage control teams fight the flood and fire, but two hours after the hits - at 1926 - heavy internal explosions occur, probably from leaking petrol vapor. Mortally stricken, HIYO settles rapidly and sinks stern first at 1932 hours. Lost with her are 250 officers and men, but Captain Yokoi and a 1,000 of her crew are rescued by destroyers SHIGURE, MICHISHIO, HAMAKAZE, HAMANAMI, AKISHIMO, and HAYASHIMO

I guess this is a sixth Japanese CV sunk by a critical hit.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:40:29 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		Japanese damage controll is notoriously BAD in WITP, I have had a CV hit by a 1000 and 500lbs bomb only to see her sink 6 turns later. But, not all damage to japanese carriers is leathal, I have had KAGA limp home after taking 2 torpedo's that caused 50 flood damage, first send her to a port to pump her dry and then back to japan with 50 sys damage. A good tip for japanese players, ALWAYS have 2/3 AR's standing by to assist in the repairs, these ships are invaluable for damage controll......

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:42:40 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
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Status: offline 		29 November 1944:
At 0309 near position bearing 198 degrees 108 miles from Omae-zaki lighthouse struck by four torpedoes in the starboard side fired by USS ARCHERFISH. At first the damage - though severe -- is judged manageable, and the carrier is able to maintain speed and course. However, progressive flooding through incomplete fittings spreads, and a heavy list to starboard develops. Captain Abe orders the three outboard port boiler rooms flooded to take some of the list off. At dawn SHINANO had steamed 36 miles from where torpedoed and was still making 11 knots, when boiler feed water failed. At 0745 the SHINANO goes dead in the water. At 0850 HAMAKAZE and ISOKAZE take in tow, and building to 3 knots start to move toward Cape Ushio to beach her. However, the strain grows too great and the tow has to be abandoned. The list to starboard resumes and increases, and at 1018 Captain Abe gives the order to Abandon Ship. The YUKIKAZE comes alongside to starboard to remove the crew.

Sunk: At 1057 hours rolls over to starboard completely bottom up, then sinks by the stern in position 33-07'N, 137-04'E, taking down Captain Abe (by his choice), 1,435 officers and men, the 50 Ohka rocket bombs and 6 Shinyo suicide boats. Rescued are 55 officers, 993 petty officers and men, plus 32 civilians for a total of 1,080 survivors (including 3 of the Ohka pilots). In addition, the HAMAKAZE does recover the Imperial Portrait found floating on the sea.



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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:44:41 PM   
treespider


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Status: offline 		19 December 1944:
Hit by one torpedo 1635 hours under the bridge from U.S. submarine REDFISH. UNRYU lost power and went dead in the water. While engineers extinguished fires and restored power in No. 8 boiler, carrier hit by second torpedo at 1650 hours starboard side, under forward elevator. Volatile cargo and av-gas set storage exploded, devastating vessel. Carrier sank quickly, in seven minutes with the loss of her captain, exec, navigator, and 1,238 petty officers and men. Only 1 officer. and 146 men survived the sinking to be rescued by SHIGURE which returned to Sasebo 22 December.



Some more critical hits I suppose.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:48:19 PM   
kkoovvoo

 

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Status: offline 		It would be o.k. if the flood level will be 70 and the ship will sink

But if the ship suffers medium damage and sinks after three days - thats different.

Japanase were able to save seriousy damaged ships (mogami - midway, shokaku - coral sea, zuiho - santa cruz)

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:51:11 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
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Status: offline 		24 August 1942:
Participate in the Battle of the Eastern Solomons. At 0200 separate from CarDiv 5 and proceed southeast to launch strikes against Guadalcanal, convoyed by TONE, AMATSUKAZE, and TOKITSUKAZE. Two strikes launched against Henderson Field.

Sunk: At 1357 attacked by enemy aircraft (from USS SARATOGA) and received four bomb hits, many near-misses, and one torpedo hit. The torpedo floods the starboard engine room and the ship begins to list and lose speed. At 1408 turns north and attempts to retire as ordered by C-in-C. But though the fire was extinguished the list increased to 21 degrees, and the boilers and machinery became disabled. At 1515 Abandon Ship was ordered. During abandonment, bombed by B-17's but no damage received. At 1800 she capsized to starboard and sank in position 6-10'S, 160-50'E, bearing 10 degrees 106 miles from Tulagi. Seven officers, including her Executive Officer, and 113 petty officers and men are lost; Captain Kato Tadao and the survivors are rescued by AMATSUKAZE, TOKITSUKAZE, and TONE.



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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:53:48 PM   
treespider


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Status: offline 		Maybe those 30 and 40 damaged ships are actually 70 that haven't quite gotten there yet...in the zen of the game.

From what I'm finding historically, maybe the japanese were just more suseptible to critical hits. So instead of designing a special critical hit code the designers opted for bad damage control.

I just listed NINE Japanese CV's sunk with comparable damge to the original post.

< Message edited by treespider -- 7/15/2005 1:55:14 PM >

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 1:59:47 PM   
treespider


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Status: offline 		Here is a Number 10.....

25 October 1944:
Battle off Cape Engano in the Battle of Leyte Gulf: Air attack by planes from U.S. TF 38. At 0835 a line of three near-miss bombs or - more likely, torpedo hits - exploded against the hull on the port side forward abreast the No.1 elevator. Massive hull rupture resulted, and Boiler rooms No.2 and No.4 on the port side immediately flooded, and the carrier heeled quickly to a dangerous 27 degree list. But damage control was swift, and after the attack, the list was corrected to 15 degrees and CHITOSE remained underway. However the rudder had failed and it was necessary to steer the carrier by using the after engines. At 0855 the list to port increased again to 20 degrees, the forward starboard engine room flooded, and speed down to 14 knots. At 0915 the after starboard engine failed, and speed dropped still further. The carrier struggled on, but at 0925 the port after engine room flooded and she went dead in the water. Though the list was 30 degrees, RAdm Matsuda on HYUGA ordered ISUZU to close and attempt to take her in tow. This proved impossible.
Sunk: At 0937 CHITOSE lay right over on her port side and nosed under with the loss of Captain Kishi Yoshiyuki and 903 officers and men. The ISUZU rescued 35 officers and 445 men and SHIMOTSUKI rescued 121 officers and men.(Position 19 - 20' N, 126 - 20' E.)



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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 2:04:27 PM   
WhoCares


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Status: offline 		You might note that most of those losses were caused by raging fires and subsequent explosions, not by uncontrolled flooding from the initial damage.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 2:05:37 PM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

You might note that most of those losses were caused by raging fires and subsequent explosions, not by uncontrolled flooding from the initial damage.



The end result is still the same...a new reef somewhere in the Pacific.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 2:10:57 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		And it all points back to bad damage control.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 2:14:39 PM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And it all points back to bad damage control.



Alright then... if damage control code is flawed then we need the designers to rewrite the code that would make japanese CV's more prone to critical hits.

I just cited 10 examples where Japanese CV's were sunk with a comparable number of hits. If the Japanese damage control wasn't bad then they must be more prone to critical hits.

The bottom line ....as in history...as the japanese don't let your CV's get hit. Historically they sunk the same day... in the game the agony is prolonged a day or three.

< Message edited by treespider -- 7/15/2005 2:18:14 PM >

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:02:07 PM   
Charles2222


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Status: offline 		Spawning carriers tends to make the Allied players care a lot less about losses.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:05:17 PM   
Charles2222


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Status: offline 		I believe the Midway CV's were that sank were all fueling up at the time; that or changing ordinance.

Oh I would like to add that if the complaintant had sent his CV's off at full speed from the enemy, or even used mission speed that probably didn't help matters any. I had like three to four DD's injured more badly trying to support the invasion of Wake, and all of them got back to Truk. I think they all exceeded 45 damage in both sys and flood, and by the time they reached Truk they were in the 60-70 category. A small part of the way I went with cruise, but I thought the better of it and went with full speed thereafter. If the distance were greater, I would've cruised all the way. The CV's might not be helped any either if he were still sending sorties off those CV's, but I understand the total damage can't exceed 50 or they can't fly.

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 7/15/2005 3:14:22 PM >

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:15:32 PM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		For those who would like to know...


KAGA
4 June 1942:
Launched strikes against Midway Island. Subsequently engaged and attacked by numerous enemy land and carrier-based aircraft. At 1022 struck by a minimum of four bombs from aircraft from U.S.S. ENTERPRISE (CV-6) inducing explosions among armed and fueled aircraft and unstored ordnance on the hangar decks, starting a raging aviation gasoline fire. One of the bombs destroyed the bridge, killing Captain Okada, her Gunnery Officer, and DCO. As a result, KAGA is left with only inexperienced aviators to fight the fires, and they are soon out of control. KAGA' engine gang soon is overcome, and she goes dead in the water. Her acting skipper orders the Emperor's portrait transferred, and soon after, at 1410, KAGA is attacked by submarine USS NAUTILUS. One torpedo hits the starboard quarter, but fails to explode. By 1700 all non-essential personnel have left the ship, removed by destroyers HAGIKAZE and MAIKAZE.

Sunk: At 1925 KAGA is rocked by two great explosions and sinks stern first at 1926 in position 30-23.3'N, 179-17.2' W. (See Note). She suffered a loss of 814 officers, petty officers, and men.

AKAGI4 June 1942:
Launched strikes against Midway Island. Subsequently engaged and attacked by numerous enemy land and carrier-based aircraft. At 1026 struck by two bombs from aircraft from U.S.S. ENTERPRISE (CV-6). Althoughnormally the damage would have been moderate, the vessel is just preparing a strike,with the result that the bomb hits induce explosions among armed and fueled aircraft onthe flight and hangar decks and start a raging aviation gasoline fire. Since she was in a maximum turn at the time, AKAGI's rudder is jammed 20 degrees to port, leaving her going in wide circles. Unable to command the fleet from her now, at 1046 VADM Nagumo Chuichi transferred flag first to NOWAKI, then to NAGARA. AKAGI's engines work erratically, with the ship starting and stopping, but she goes dead in the water for good at 1350. By 1600 all non-essential personnel have left the ship, though Captain Aoki and a damage control party remain aboard. The vessel burns through the evening and next night, but remains afloat.

5 June 1942:
Sunk: Scuttled by direct order of C-in-C Combined Fleet Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku.At 0520 sank bow first after three torpedo hits out of four fired into her starboard side -one each - by ARASHIO, HAGIKAZE, MAIKAZE and NOWAKI. Sank in position 30-30 N, 178-40 W. More than 1,070 survivors rescued, including her skipper, (now Captain Aoki Taijiro - who had replaced Hasegawa in the spring) - though he had to be ordered off the ship -, while only263 petty officers and men are lost. Survivors subsequently transferred from destroyers to MUTSU, one of the battleships in Yamamoto's Main Body.


SORYU3- 4 June 1942:
Participate in the Battle of Midway. Launched strike against Midway Island.

Sunk: At 1025 while preparing to launch strike against enemy carrier, attacked by thirteen enemy dive bombers. Three direct bomb hits, one on the forward elevator, the other two straddle the second elevator, setting off furious fires and induced explosions among the armed and fueled aircraft. At 1040 goes dead in the water; and five minutes later Abandon Ship is ordered. Survivors are removed by ISOKAZE and HAMAKAZE and vessel is left drifting and afire. At 1913 begins to sink by the stern and three minutes later upends and sinks, taking down 713 officers and men including Captain Yanagimoto Ryusaku, who had deliberately chosen to remain aboard. (Position 30 - 38' N, 179 - 13 W')

HIRYU3- 4 June 1942:
Participate in the Battle of Midway. Launch strike against Midway at 0430. When KAGA, SORYU, and AKAGI set afire and disabled by bomb strikes at 1025, initially avoid damage by enemy torpedo and bomb attacks. Launched two strikes at 1050 and 1245 against USS YORKTOWN.

Sunk: At 1703 while preparing to launch strike against enemy carrier, attacked by thirteen enemy dive bombers. Four direct bomb hits received, all closely spaced. The first three landed in a row on the fore part of the flight deck, the blast of the nearest flinging the forward elevator bodily against the island. The fourth bomb struck amidships beside the bridge. The hits set off furious fires and induced explosions among aircraft being scheduled to launch in an hour. Though initially able to maintain 28 knots and withdraw to the west, the fires gain steadily. At 2123 goes dead in the water, and KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO detached to stand by. At 0158 a major induced explosion occurs, and hope is lost. Abandon ship is ordered, and ComCarDiv 2 Yamaguchi gives a farewell speech, and remains aboard with Captain Kaku Tomeo. Yamaguchi orders the carrier scuttled, and after survivors removed by KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO, at 0510 scuttled by MAKIGUMO with one torpedo in the starboard side opposite the bridge. (Scuttling position 31-38'N, 178-51'W). The MAKIGUMO then withdraws without confirming the sinking. Therafter, at 0630 a plane from HOSHO finds and photographs HIRYU still afloat and with survivors clearly seen still aboard. The destroyer TANIKAZE is dispatched, but before she arrives, the carrier at 0912 upended and sank by the bow in a position between 240 - 260 miles NW from Midway. Of the 70 men marooned aboard, only thirty-five are eventually rescued by the U.S. Navy, including her Chief Engineer. A total of 418 officers, petty officers and men are listed as lost with the carrier, but this does not appear to exclude the POWs, so the actual figure would be 383 lost.





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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:21:01 PM   
Rainerle

 

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Status: offline 		So if the japanese had won the battlefield Akagi and Hiryu could have been saved ?

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:26:13 PM   
LittleJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

29 November 1944:
At 0309 near position bearing 198 degrees 108 miles from Omae-zaki lighthouse struck by four torpedoes in the starboard side fired by USS ARCHERFISH. At first the damage - though severe -- is judged manageable, and the carrier is able to maintain speed and course. However, progressive flooding through incomplete fittings spreads, and a heavy list to starboard develops. Captain Abe orders the three outboard port boiler rooms flooded to take some of the list off. At dawn SHINANO had steamed 36 miles from where torpedoed and was still making 11 knots, when boiler feed water failed. At 0745 the SHINANO goes dead in the water. At 0850 HAMAKAZE and ISOKAZE take in tow, and building to 3 knots start to move toward Cape Ushio to beach her. However, the strain grows too great and the tow has to be abandoned. The list to starboard resumes and increases, and at 1018 Captain Abe gives the order to Abandon Ship. The YUKIKAZE comes alongside to starboard to remove the crew.

Sunk: At 1057 hours rolls over to starboard completely bottom up, then sinks by the stern in position 33-07'N, 137-04'E, taking down Captain Abe (by his choice), 1,435 officers and men, the 50 Ohka rocket bombs and 6 Shinyo suicide boats. Rescued are 55 officers, 993 petty officers and men, plus 32 civilians for a total of 1,080 survivors (including 3 of the Ohka pilots). In addition, the HAMAKAZE does recover the Imperial Portrait found floating on the sea.




I seem to remember the Shinano not being finished, aka no water tight doors where yet fitted.So you cant really blame it on poor damage control rather gross negligence.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:27:50 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

So if the japanese had won the battlefield Akagi and Hiryu could have been saved ?


Sounds like they were pretty finished to me...

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(in reply to Rainerle)
Post #: 26
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:30:33 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

29 November 1944:
At 0309 near position bearing 198 degrees 108 miles from Omae-zaki lighthouse struck by four torpedoes in the starboard side fired by USS ARCHERFISH. At first the damage - though severe -- is judged manageable, and the carrier is able to maintain speed and course. However, progressive flooding through incomplete fittings spreads, and a heavy list to starboard develops. Captain Abe orders the three outboard port boiler rooms flooded to take some of the list off. At dawn SHINANO had steamed 36 miles from where torpedoed and was still making 11 knots, when boiler feed water failed. At 0745 the SHINANO goes dead in the water. At 0850 HAMAKAZE and ISOKAZE take in tow, and building to 3 knots start to move toward Cape Ushio to beach her. However, the strain grows too great and the tow has to be abandoned. The list to starboard resumes and increases, and at 1018 Captain Abe gives the order to Abandon Ship. The YUKIKAZE comes alongside to starboard to remove the crew.

Sunk: At 1057 hours rolls over to starboard completely bottom up, then sinks by the stern in position 33-07'N, 137-04'E, taking down Captain Abe (by his choice), 1,435 officers and men, the 50 Ohka rocket bombs and 6 Shinyo suicide boats. Rescued are 55 officers, 993 petty officers and men, plus 32 civilians for a total of 1,080 survivors (including 3 of the Ohka pilots). In addition, the HAMAKAZE does recover the Imperial Portrait found floating on the sea.




I seem to remember the Shinano not being finished, aka no water tight doors where yet fitted.So you cant really blame it on poor damage control rather gross negligence.



I'm not suggesting poor damage control, my only intent was to point out that a bunch of japanese CV's ended up sunk with a similar amount of damage inflicted as in the original post by castor.

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(in reply to LittleJoe)
Post #: 27
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:33:29 PM   
Belphegor


Posts: 2209
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		Sorry Castortroy I think I will have to weigh in with the "you were just really really really really unlucky" crowd.

I had the CVL Ryuho take 3 torpedos, and numerous bomb hits and still survive a week at sea (getting up to 74 sys and 94 float) before reaching port and getting repairs (They were Expendable AAR).... sorry Bill, she's home.

(in reply to Rainerle)
Post #: 28
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:35:47 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Plus there's more than one account of Japanese warships OTHER than carriers making it home with very heavy damage. Maybe the Japs were just really bad at handling avgas and bombs. Didn't the Taiho sink because her avgas lines were full of fuel vapours, which subsequently ignited?

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Post #: 29
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/15/2005 3:37:37 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		Per your request

19 June 1944:
Battle of the Marianas. While launching part of `Raid I' against TF 58 in position 12-24'N, 137-20'E the TAIHO at 0810 is hit in the starboard side forward abreast No.1 elevator by one of six torpedoes fired by USS ALBACORE. The impact punches a hole in the hull which floods the forward elevator well and gives the TAIHO a 1.5 meter trim by the bow, but she maintains speed at 26 knots. The forward elevator, which was raised for launching operations is jarred loose and falls two meters, disrupting take-off operations and the torpedo hit cracks the av-gas tanks underneath it as well. As a result, free gasoline mixes with the water flooding the forward elevator well and av-gas vapor builds up in the space. Within a half-hour damage control has planked over the settled No.1 elevator and the remaining planes were launched. However, the gas vapor builds in the closed hanger and enclosed bow area and becomes serious. Efforts to free the mounting vapor by knocking holes in the ship's side or to ventilate the hangar are made. But at 1432 a tremendous induced explosion of gas vapor occurs forward, buckling the armored flight deck upward and blowing out the sides of the hangar deck. The precise force and cause of the explosion are somewhat ambiguous (see Note 2 for details:), but the shock of the blast ruptured the hull below the waterline, and all power failed. By 1500 the TAIHO is dead in the water, a blazing wreck shaken by explosions and Admiral Ozawa is compelled to transfer his flag. The WAKATSUKI comes alongside to starboad and sends a boat. However, the HAGURO moves up and Ozawa soon transfers to her from the destroyer in turn, hoisting his flag at 1606. In the meantime the TAIHO continues to burn furiously and starts to list slightly to port and settle slowly by the head. Oil leaking from the tanks and covering the sea catches on fire, adding to the inferno and peril. Realizing that she can't be saved, Captain Kikuchi orders all remaining personal evacuated.

Sunk: At 1628, still settling upright, leans over to port and dips by the bow, sinking "horizontally" and bodily below the waves on a nearly even keel in position 12-05'N, 138-12'E. Destroyers ISOKAZE, WAKATSUKI and HATSUZUKI rescue over 1,000 officers and men, including Captain Kikkuchi Tomozo; but about 1/3 of the complement - 28 officers and 632 petty officers and men - are lost.



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(in reply to Terminus)
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