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I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying to accumulate some textiles to build a light inf

 
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I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying to a... - 8/9/2005 7:38:31 PM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying to accumulate some textiles to build a guard and despite more than +50 textiles per month since the start of the game I have only managed to accumulate 66 textiles. Anyone know why ?
Post #: 1
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/9/2005 8:03:37 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		Because of Waste. You will rarely be able to produce more than 15-30. Search for the waste thread here somewhere.

(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 2
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/9/2005 8:33:46 PM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Six months of spending nothing at all and I can't accumulate enough tunics for one guard regiment with the entire resources of the Hapsburg Empire commited to the project.

What an utterly dreadful piece of game programming.


(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 3
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/9/2005 9:42:56 PM   
ian77

 

Posts: 627
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I dont recall the Hapsburgs having a Guards division....... so maybe not such a dreadful piece of programming?

(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 4
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 12:24:14 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		have you looked at the ecc screen ? the one that pops up across the top of the main screen ?

(explaned that rather well, I dare say)

see how much you are making and how much is going into waste

if you are up to 60, then you should still be able to go past that

over all, I would suggest going back to your provinces, and drop all your textile production, until you are only making 10-12

over all, you are better off at 12 then at 60-80

ahh, wait one, do you have 60 in stock, or are you showing you should make 60 ???

anything over 10 in textiles is going to kick in waste and taxes, at close to 90% rate

so when I was making 63 a month, I was getting 14, when I kicked it down to 12, I was getting 9

almost the same amount for a whole lot less work, and I was able to use that extra manpower for other things

HARD_Sarge


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Post #: 5
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 2:08:32 AM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge,

All useful to know but it dosen't make any actual sense, so my comment remains; poor bit of games programming.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 6
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 2:11:08 AM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Ian77,

no they had Grenadiers, 2 companies of hand picked troops out of each regiment of 20 companies. Quite a bit more select and elite than a large number of units called 'guard' in other armies, including the French.


(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 7
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 3:26:24 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		hi Lee
I don't think poor programming is fair
we don't understand or follow alot of what is trying to be done, so it seems wrong to us, the program is working the way it was told to, we just got to get to understand what it is doing

Look at the games that Gary G designs, one big issue from way back, is still how he sees what Supply means, his programing isn't poor, just because we disagree with what we think Supply is compared to him

HARD_Sarge


_____________________________


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Post #: 8
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 3:40:25 AM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline
quote:

All useful to know but it dosen't make any actual sense, so my comment remains; poor bit of games programming.


Let me put this in a different perspective: Waste exists to prevent you from going all out with production. Your economic sliders are not there to allow you to crank out a billion textiles every turn. It's unrealistic that the entire population of Blerghostav abandon their farms and make only textiles.

Set your production at different levels and examine the economic report, you will see the level you are able to produce without too much waste. You should put all your excess production capacity into food, labor, and development.

As for your guards, you are building a division, not a regiment, and it will take some time to get them equipped. If you build one a year you are lucky.

I'm not sure, it seems like you are a RTS veteran from your comments about poor programming and whatnot, but in CoG you don't have total control over your economy, you tweak it to your ends.

Eric: can we get that economic FAQ soon?


(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 9
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 5:50:45 PM   
ian77

 

Posts: 627
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lee James

Ian77,

no they had Grenadiers, 2 companies of hand picked troops out of each regiment of 20 companies. Quite a bit more select and elite than a large number of units called 'guard' in other armies, including the French.




A co. of grenadiers in every battalion is not the same as raising a guards division. This game is stratigic in concept, IMHO, and does not try to deal with battalion or regimental composition (Thus infantry divisions raised by Austria in germanic provinces are the same size as those raised in "hungarian" provinces, where as in real life "hungarian" regts were bigger).

I consider the divisions are an abstract points value of troops, with which the player composes his armies.

Try some of the economic suggestions made above, you will eventually have sufficient resources to build your guards division, you will just then have to wait 18 months for them to appear!

My original comment was tounge in cheek and was meant to address your claim of bad programming.... as noted above, just because you do not like it does not have to make it "bad programming".

Ian

(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 10
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 8:59:22 PM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Chaps,

Yes I am an RTS vet and a Napoleonic enthusiast since flairs were fasionable so I would really like this game to work but I have never encountered so many illogical resource and production relationships in such a short time of exposure and I have never seen anyone write a manual using so many words to convey so little useful information.

It's not the idea of restricting control over the economy that is the issue, I think that is a good idea but if you wish to do that you can simply limit the proportion of the workforce that a player can allocate to that action rather than allowing them to allocate a large proportion and adding a mechanism that prevents them from getting anything out of it. there is no economic justification for such an extreme level of waste anyway; Carnifex's point is valid, in this game you don't have total control over your economy, fair point and the answer is simple, just don't give me total control over it.

Also instead of wasting space (and reading time) putting the combat calculations in the manual, (information far more entertaining gathered in abstract from actually playing the game) make it clear in bold type how the waste system works and how severe it is, such information is far more likely to be available to a government than the various percentage modifiers in combat. additionally it would also help to show that it takes 18 months to assemble the troops and not the 6 months the chart indicates; I have my textiles now and it was exasperating to discover this fact when I hit the build button.

6 months making the tunics and a year and a half getting the idiots dressed in them (I know, I know, I'm joking)

Ian, I have no difficuly in grasping the strategic level that the game is played at nor the abstract representaion of the troops as divisions of a nominal 10,000 men and it is clear that a Jager division is actually an advance guard division of a particular type of troop mix rather than 10,000 Jagers. I also understand your comment about the Grenadier companies however their presence in the regiments themselves was purely an administrative matter and to provide a base from which to selectively recruit, the companies themselves were formed into battalions (4 or 6 companies) and then grouped into divisions for battle and despite not being called Guards they were to all intents and purposes Guards divisions without the pay rise.

Also the comparison between the German and Hungarian regiments is only partially true; by 1809 there was little difference in size and later when the landwehr were used to form the 4th battalion of the German regimants , they were actually larger than the Hungarian regiments.

I will keep plodding on with it for a bit but several of us got the software together and started a PBEM game; all are vetran RTS players and are without exception frustrated with various aspects of the game. I am concerned that we will have given up and moved on before we have collectively worked out how to nulify these foibles which would be a shame (and I may have to play in a genre of someone elses chosing next time !)

(in reply to ian77)
Post #: 11
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 9:37:15 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		give it a chance

Eric has said he will be working on getting the Ecc side of the game more to the players liking

which some have been rash, and harsh changes and other have been mild

hopefully from my point of view we go with the mild, just giving the player more control over the Ecc and how to fix it when it is broken

LOL, something simple, like you need money, lower your taxes ???

strange but it works

make sure you don't have depots laying around doing nothing, they cost money !

(I was fighting a losing battle trying to get my money to the good, then just looked over the map and found about 7 Depots I had been using and were not any more, Boy did that make a change !!!

time on builds, Yeap, if you look back in the posts, I raised that issue, but building barracks will lower the time needed (in the same Province)

plus. you don't really need to build Guards, you can gain them during battle

this is a good game, and the deeper you get into it, the more it will surprise you

my Current game, I have had Turkey locked with treaties with in treaties since the start of the 23 year war, I am in the lead and Turkey is in 2nd place

and just when I knew my borders were safe, to try and take out Sweden, Russia DOWs me, okay I got something for ya, Armee du Hammer has been waiting on the border for this, and the new Armee du Slovok had been building up its strength to join in, just as I cross the border

England makes a landing in my Spainish lands, and Turkey declares war

normally, that would not be too bad, but Turkey has most of southern Spain, and has sent 400,000 troops marching north, and 300,000 troops headed west though Aus

Lol and behold, while I was still sort of ready for it, Spain and Aus came though like champs, where ever my Armies went, theirs flanked it, and cut the reteat

in 3 months, the mighty Armies of Turkey were cut to bits, along with Sweden and Russia

just give it a chance, it will grow on you :)

HARD_Sarge


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Post #: 12
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/10/2005 10:02:46 PM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Well I will certainly give it a go; at least its clear that great effort is being put into supporting the product and tweaking the flaws and that combined with learning the quirks present ought to help. Looking back on the many other games we have played over the years usually as armies get bigger and Empires more developed a lot of these issues fade by the wayside simply because the scale of the game goes up a few notches; I imagine with a million men under arms you don't care a fig how many units of textiles you can produce and I have had many games where I'm too busy to worry about the economy when there buttock to prod.


(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 13
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/11/2005 4:35:00 AM   
ian77

 

Posts: 627
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lee James

I have never seen anyone write a manual using so many words to convey so little useful information.



LOL!


I think the game will grow on you too.

You are right, so many empire building games, once you are established and up and running, just become a procession, your ultimate victory virtually assured so long as you make it through the early phase. COG probably gets harder to manage as you grow. If your empire gets too big your people will consume all your food and luxuries, spice, textiles,and wine, you may not have enough to satisfy demand never mind excess for new units. Failure to meet demand leads to a drop in national morale.

Waste is a real pain, but it does help keep things "real" for want of a better word. The idea is to have the most glory, not the biggest empire or army, and the use of waste and capping of resource and cash stock piles is a different and very interesting approach. (afterall would the tax payers stand by while the govt. created huge cash reserves and created shortages of materials ... at the very least the politicians would cream it off for themselves, IMHO.)

Personally I found the economics a real pain at first, and came to the forum in disgust. I read up on waste, as you say much more should be made of this in the manual, and started again... now I really enjoy the game and I am very glad I persevered.

Good luck with it!

Ian

(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 14
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/11/2005 4:01:06 PM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		There is certainly truth in a lot of what you are saying; a lot of games in the past have been easy to dissect and a perfect manner of play becomes quickly apparent and that is a very bad thing. I would certainly not make such an allegation here in fact I would be suprised if anyone has entirely got their head round it all yet.

It also makes a change to see a recognition of dis-economies of scale too; not every organisation gets more efficient as it gets larger.

And I just noticed I have the most Glory in our game - so I must be best right?


(in reply to ian77)
Post #: 15
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/11/2005 4:30:33 PM   
ian77

 

Posts: 627
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lee James


And I just noticed I have the most Glory in our game - so I must be best right?




Right!

Or the best target for a gang bang?

Ian

(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 16
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/11/2005 6:00:14 PM   
Reg Pither


Posts: 196
Joined: 9/19/2003
From: London
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ian77

Or the best target for a gang bang?

Ian



I really hope you're using that phrase to mean something other than its usual meaning...

< Message edited by Reg Pither -- 8/11/2005 6:03:16 PM >

(in reply to ian77)
Post #: 17
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/11/2005 6:00:45 PM   
Reg Pither


Posts: 196
Joined: 9/19/2003
From: London
Status: offline 		------

< Message edited by Reg Pither -- 8/11/2005 6:02:51 PM >

(in reply to Reg Pither)
Post #: 18
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/11/2005 7:09:19 PM   
Lee James

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Me too, although if the rest of my group realise this too and give me a shoeing I may feel a little like I have been shafted.

(in reply to Reg Pither)
Post #: 19
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/11/2005 9:14:17 PM   
ian77

 

Posts: 627
Joined: 4/27/2004
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I meant the other powers may patch up their differences and gang up against the game leader until he is completely ^*&%&*( !

It is an old C19th diplomatic term, I believe, made popular by Lord Palmerston IIRC.

Ian

(in reply to Lee James)
Post #: 20
RE: I have a very annoying situation here. I am trying ... - 8/11/2005 9:48:14 PM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
LOL, something simple, like you need money, lower your taxes ???

strange but it works


"Supply side" economic model ???

_____________________________


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Post #: 21
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