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Casualty report lies! - 8/11/2005 5:18:06 PM   
Puukkoo


Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Seinäjoki, Finland
Status: offline 		Never trust your casualty reports . They're just propaganda that maximizes each sides losses.

Played a scenario where my real losses were one T-26 and two infantry men. Tank crew bailed out and had 2 men alive out of four. Casualty report said that I had lost eight (8) men, which was not true. It should have read four instead of eight.

Explanation for this is that program counts the crew of a destroyed tank as casualties, plus the missing men from the surviving crew. Therefore, casualty number eight was tank crew (4), missing crew (2) and fallen foot soldiers (2). True figure was four and not eight: two foot soldiers and two tank crewmembers.


Another goof in casualty report was uploading men onto vehicle. I created an experimental scenario:

Plain map 30x20 (no terrain).

Scenario lenght: 1 turn.

Forces:

SO Sniper

GER Headquarters
GER Infantry Platoon
A Kubelwagen

-I took german side and loaded one squad onto Kubelwagen. Soviet sniper took one soldier out when I moved a squad to meet the vehicle. I killed the Soviet sniper.

Casualty report read that I had lost six men and enemy just one. This meant that those men who had been loaded onto Kubelwagen had been removed from the game and counted as killed. True figures would have been one killed for each side.

This is to prove that no one should trust on casualty reports.

Btw I will never post that scenario. You can create it in ten seconds.
Post #: 1
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/11/2005 9:22:28 PM   
Svennemir

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 11/2/2001
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Ahh, I had an idea something was wrong with the casualty counts. Nice to see someone actually testing it!

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Post #: 2
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/11/2005 10:05:45 PM   
Puukkoo


Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Seinäjoki, Finland
Status: offline 		Lol

I've been thinking that testing since SP III: Brigade Command, but I never actually put it into effect. I thought it had been corrected in SP:WAW but not. No one seems to care about life of a single infanterist.

Scenario I designed for testing was probably most stupid thing ever created for the whole series.

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Post #: 3
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 12:52:30 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

Lol

No one seems to care about life of a single infanterist.



So sad, but yet so true. The "poor bloody infantry" never gets the respect it deserves.

As far as casualty calculations are concerned, the "official" casualty stats also have an effect upon VP totals, and in turn upon upgrade points in a campaign.

Ok, let's look at it another way -- the "fudge factor" we can just attribute to MIAs, or wounded and permanently out of action, OK? We don't have Graves Registration Teams in SPWaW. I hate to dismiss in such a cavalier fashion something that in reality is of vital importance, but no one ever claimed that the game was flawless. I'm willing to accept the inexactitude of the game's casualty figures. It's not a gamebreaker.

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Post #: 4
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 1:10:38 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		That casualty report needs to go anyway....
Gives away too much info for the opposing player.

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Post #: 5
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 1:22:33 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

That casualty report needs to go anyway....
Gives away too much info for the opposing player.


Alby, you're speaking of human vs human battles/ campaigns, right? Yes, the "body counts", which I think are distasteful anyway, would be better expressed strictly in terms as a percentage of actual VPs gained vs the maximum VPs possible in a given battle. Compare the percentages with the oponent, and on that basis would be calculated the level of victory. The number of specific replacement points and upgrade points would be available only to the player involved.

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Post #: 6
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 1:31:29 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		human vs human or vs the AI
You fire your arty and then you get casualty reports!
now , if you didnt actually know for sure that there were enemy troops where your arty landed, the reports give that away!
or If you see no casulty report, then you know the enemy is not there...

ESP intel I reckon..


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Post #: 7
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 1:47:45 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I think they mean the overall scenario end casualty report, Alby, and it would be great if it were fixed. Doesn't seem like it would be hard to do. Just teach the game simple math like 1+1=2, not 13.


Goblin

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Post #: 8
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 1:54:48 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

human vs human or vs the AI
You fire your arty and then you get casualty reports!
now , if you didnt actually know for sure that there were enemy troops where your arty landed, the reports give that away!
or If you see no casulty report, then you know the enemy is not there...

ESP intel I reckon..



Yes, I agree. The only sign you should get if your assigned counterbattery fire is effective is if the enemy stops firing. Without air support, it wastes a lot of ammo.

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Post #: 9
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 2:21:51 AM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		Panzer Leo's version H2H has had the "in game" casualty reports removed as well as the dumb spotting * and makes for more realism. I don't know how he did it but i like the change and everything else in H2H.
Whatever happened to Panzer Leo anyway ?
There was talk of another H2H mod for V8 and he used to post at the blitz ages ago but he's sort of dissapeared since then

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 10
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 3:06:40 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

Panzer Leo's version H2H has had the "in game" casualty reports removed as well as the dumb spotting * and makes for more realism. I don't know how he did it but i like the change and everything else in H2H.
Whatever happened to Panzer Leo anyway ?
There was talk of another H2H mod for V8 and he used to post at the blitz ages ago but he's sort of dissapeared since then


Yes, there was some talk with Panzer Leo (AKA Joerg Lowenstein), about an H2H update, but nothing has come of it.

Personally, I always felt that a pooling of resources would give us a "definitive" SPWaW OOB set and game engine, but it has become a series of independent efforts, which is not unusual in the gaming world of today.

Panzer Leo gave us a great base point in certain aspects, specifically in the new pics he offered, plus some new SND files which are really good. He also contributed the German-language translations for the German OOB. This is his sole field of expertise, as far as OOBs are concerned. I accepted his cosmetic changes, but none of the others.


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Post #: 11
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 3:38:01 AM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		OK, I've got a question for all of ya. When u ring up your Arrty for a preliminary barrage,aren't you going on your predictions of the enemies prospective route anyway?
I don't usually start my Arrty until someone shoots at my forces and whether or not I give a prebombardment, to assault/advance usually against MINES, is dependant on type of battle,general visablity,topography, and what other assets are available from the support buy screen.
I quite enjoy the reports even if they're not accurate and am probably stating the obvious but I have the habit of looking for the smoke from the enemys Artillary and their habit of centre placement of said Arrty, but isn't that part of the game? playing by hunch and by guess and getting the instant knowledge that u got those hits from the hunch because, hypathetically "thats where WE'd have come from". !! RT

(in reply to soldier)
Post #: 12
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 3:50:05 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

Panzer Leo's version H2H has had the "in game" casualty reports removed as well as the dumb spotting * and makes for more realism. I don't know how he did it but i like the change and everything else in H2H.
Whatever happened to Panzer Leo anyway ?
There was talk of another H2H mod for V8 and he used to post at the blitz ages ago but he's sort of dissapeared since then


It was done with a hex editor program...If you can find the right bytes or whatever you call them..you can simply erase the casualty reports(or something to that effect)...someone at the depot is working on an alternate mech that eliminates the casualty reports. So you can have a mech with or without them..

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Post #: 13
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 12:07:57 PM   
Puukkoo


Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Seinäjoki, Finland
Status: offline 		Well, I can go with these current casualty reports. It was a great improvement so far that 'killed' became 'casualty', which is more realistic. It can be said that about one third or one fourth of the casualties are KIA's or POW's and the rest are wounded, or shellshocked.

Steel Panthers 1 had however more interesting leader replacement system. Fallen leaders were replaced with corporals. Another great feature was that you could actually reassign formation leaders, which made the game almost like a roleplaying game.

(in reply to Alby)
Post #: 14
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 12:37:00 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Well you can still sort of reassign platoon leaders. The senior rank takes over though. For example on eof my Panzer Companies lost their Captain in the first battle, so he was replaced with a 2nd lt. I could have moved any 1st lt I wanted to the Hq section and he would have taken over. I have Captains now in Platoon command, and the Panzer Company Commander is finally a 1st Lt. I could move him to the platoon and move the Capt to the Hqs section and they would replace one another. Takes a couple moves to get the 0 unit as command though. Move company commander first then move plt commander, makes him the zero position, then move the old company commander again and he becomes platoon zero unit.

Not worth the effort. I miss assigning the command as you please though. When I start in 39 I always have to buy some vehicles to fill out my PanzerGrenadier Companies, the Company commander in the Motorized Company doesnt have an organic vehicle assigned and the mortor platoon has no vehicles either. So 4 halftracks to each company, make sure ya buy the 4 section since the leader will be a 1st lt and be senior to your mortor plt commander takeing the command position, just assign the halftrack section leadr ( LT) to Company section since it is commanded by a Captain, Then the sgts to the mortor platoon.

But it means I cant assign my ammo carriers to the Artillery batteries also, the ammo carriers are again 1st Lts and the Battary commanders are 2nd Lts.

(in reply to Puukkoo)
Post #: 15
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 3:25:33 PM   
Puukkoo


Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Seinäjoki, Finland
Status: offline 		Oh, yes. I have noticed that senior officers take command in a platoon that has a Plt ldr squad. I had a Canuck platoon whose leader was killed. One sergeant from Rifle section was moved after the battle to take the leader's position. The program also seems to favor leader's squads in promotions.

In SP III:Brigade command there appeared replacement 1st Lt.'s as Infantry battalion commanders. Some of my Company commaders had been promoted to majors and I moved the Major's squad to the battalion commander's post. I noticed that the Major was now leading the commander's unit, but it could not reduce suppression from subordinate platoons. I kinda lost my battalion commander, but that was SP III.

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Post #: 16
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 6:02:07 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I'd been wondering about that for a while. Just finished a game the other night. I lost two tanks...the casualty report said i lost 6. I'd thought it was the game confusing an AFV with APC's but in this game i didn't lose any APC's!



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Post #: 17
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/12/2005 8:26:52 PM   
Puukkoo


Posts: 472
Joined: 7/19/2005
From: Seinäjoki, Finland
Status: offline 		If you lost some bunkers, airplanes, ships... Some of them counts as tanks.

(Oh, yeah I been promoted to trooper! Cool!)

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Post #: 18
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/16/2005 3:18:28 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		To Michael-- can you work on the casaulty reports? Personally, I want to keep them, but apparently the game's calculations are skewed.

You gotta remember that casualty calculations fit into the victory point totals, and for a long campaign, this directly affects the available upgrade points.

Will you look into this?

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 8/16/2005 3:22:26 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/16/2005 5:25:51 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Bump to top

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Post #: 20
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/16/2005 7:00:13 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

No plans to change casualty report routines at any time in forseeable future.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

To Michael-- can you work on the casaulty reports? Personally, I want to keep them, but apparently the game's calculations are skewed.

You gotta remember that casualty calculations fit into the victory point totals, and for a long campaign, this directly affects the available upgrade points.

Will you look into this?


(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 21
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/16/2005 11:47:12 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Oh, well, at least I tried.

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Post #: 22
RE: Casualty report lies! - 8/31/2005 5:57:10 PM   
Korpraali V


Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline
I just had PBEM game against my friend. He lost three tanks definately destroyed but the result counted just two. Looking the map we both found those three destroyed tanks but in results and in player troops list there were only two tanks destroyed.


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Post #: 23
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