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I play OOTP - how does this compare??

 
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I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 5:12:08 AM   
diesel7013


Posts: 245
Joined: 5/2/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Like I said above - I play OOTP - I LOVE it - the ability to play careers, single seasons - w/ or w/o salary caps ect...

Anyway - what do the people who have played both games think of both of them? How do they compare? How quickly can you sim a season - which has more depth and statistical data?

Thanks!

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RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 5:51:58 AM   
HercMighty


Posts: 407
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: Minnesota, USA
Status: offline 		I hadn't heard of this game and had been looking into OOTP, was going to wait till they released the next version with next season, but saw this and am also very curious as to what people have to say.

(in reply to diesel7013)
Post #: 2
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 6:22:14 AM   
CPTBrown

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		I'm also a dedicated Out of the Park Baseball player. I own World at War (a fantastic Matrix release) and saw Puresim on their site. VERY interested...

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CPT B
FLY ARMY!

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RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 7:05:19 AM   
DandricSturm


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		I've owned three or four versions of OOTP including 5 and 6. I've owned probably every version of PureSim. Like any simulations each has strong points and weak points. I personaly like the "feel" of PureSim over OOTP. I don't think it makes much sense to say that one or the other is "better." Each is different and ultimately is going to come down to personal preference.

And, oh yeah...Fly Army!

< Message edited by DandricSturm -- 8/21/2005 7:08:15 AM >

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RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 7:50:58 AM   
Beach23BoyP

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline 		I've owned OOTP since version 3.2 and I've owned PureSim since early, early beta. While OOTP is a very good baseball sim, I much prefer PureSim.

(in reply to DandricSturm)
Post #: 5
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 5:03:52 PM   
Abev

 

Posts: 228
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with Beach and Dandric. PureSim to me is more real life immersive. OOTP seems "arcadey" to me. Alot of people like that tho. I couldnt play OOTP, I was waiting for Mr Met to do the pepsi t shirt launch .

No disrespect to OOTP. PureSim to me is much more "GM" detail driven. I am serious about my sims. Big difference too when the developer lets the users be involved int he direction of the sim.

(in reply to Beach23BoyP)
Post #: 6
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 5:12:08 PM   
FBPro

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		It's like any game of the same genre, some think game X is better and other swear that Y is the best. I personally MUCH perfer OOTP feeling it is superior to PS in many ways, but I have also purchased several versions of PS. It's a good game just doesn't DO IT for me.

(in reply to diesel7013)
Post #: 7
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 5:57:58 PM   
DandricSturm


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: diesel7013

Like I said above - I play OOTP - I LOVE it - the ability to play careers, single seasons - w/ or w/o salary caps ect...

Anyway - what do the people who have played both games think of both of them? How do they compare? How quickly can you sim a season - which has more depth and statistical data?

Thanks!


How quickly you can sim a season varies of course. I just simmed a season for a sixteen team league in about twenty-four minutes but I was not using the fastest simming method which doesn't display standings etc. during the sim.

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"The Guns, Thank God, The Guns..." - Rudyard Kipling
http://www.bluemax-ara-assoc.com/

(in reply to diesel7013)
Post #: 8
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 6:07:38 PM   
lynchjm24

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		I think the answer here for the people who haven't tried to game is to grab the demo when it's released. I like both games - but I've really lately spent much more time on Puresim when it comes to solo play, and OOTP with respect to multi-player leagues.

I know I've said it plenty of times (even if those posts are gone), but there is no reason why you can't like and support and enjoy multiple games it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's not like a rap war... you aren't going to be killed for rolling with Puresim or OOTP.

(in reply to DandricSturm)
Post #: 9
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 6:17:39 PM   
Rob322

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 8/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lynchjm24

I know I've said it plenty of times (even if those posts are gone), but there is no reason why you can't like and support and enjoy multiple games it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's not like a rap war... you aren't going to be killed for rolling with Puresim or OOTP.


Sometimes it's hard to convince fan boys of this however!

I've been playing OOTP since version 3 and am quite satisfied. It does do some weird things statistically, particularly if you have the game engine set to the defaults. I still like it though and feel like it's continually improved. They should have a new version out next year which looks great. Still, I also love Matrix Games and to see them pick up PureSim is IMO quite an endorsement. I'll definitely pick up the demo of this however and purchase it if I like what I see. Then I'll just have two baseball sims on my computer as opposed to one. That sounds good to me.

(in reply to lynchjm24)
Post #: 10
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 6:41:56 PM   
JonnieR

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline 		I own both OOTP and Puresim (as well as Diamond Mind). There are many similarities between the various titles, but of the three, PureSim seems to draw me in and immerse me in the game better than the other two. Somehow the interface and design of PureSim has an almost intangible appeal that the others do not have.

(in reply to diesel7013)
Post #: 11
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 7:31:45 PM   
HoschMosch

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry to say that but in terms of a realistic game engine (in my opinion the most importent part of a game) Ootp is not perfect but Pursim is still miles behind.

HoschMosch

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My Baseball Manager Project Page

(in reply to diesel7013)
Post #: 12
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 8:13:48 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		Having played both - my take is the following:

OOTP is better at "simming" large numbers of games and producing carrer stats and progression over time - the new engine has fixed a lot of what I thought were issues in consistnency in past versions (ie good players tend to "stay good" over time rather sine wave up and down with a general upward slope.

If you are a "pure stathead" (A term of endearment be sure) then I agree that OOTP is still a ways ahead of Puresim "over the years". I think the finacials are a bit more balanced over time in OOTp from an owner point of view.

Where PureSim shines to me is as manager/GM where you 'manage" most of your games. THe "in game experience" of OOTP just seems "sterile" and the games don't seem to get "the right flow".

A matter of taste to be sure, but I have MUCH more fun magaging a PureSim game than I do managing an OOTP game. The little "ball path" thing adds a lot, but it just seems to 'feel more like real baseball'.

ITs VERY important to us to hear from OOTP players what they like "better" about that game - not that everybodies desires can be met - that always ends up with NOBODY being happy, but to understand the respective "niches" the audience of teh two games fit into and add features where it makes sense to broaden the niche to encompass more of what OOTP players like, but also to better understand teh niche PureSIm fans fallinto and further play to the games strengths to improve their play experience.

So PLEASE continue to present and debate teh strengths and weaknesses of teh two games (and the others) and what YOU as a baseball simmer think still needs to be done.

As I told Shaun, my love is managing and GM'ing and I would like to see more "player character" worked into the game where I feel more of the tensions as a manager and GM aseembling and keeping my team together, bringing prosects and "old farts" up and down, dealing with player rivalries and team rivalries, so its more than just "juggling stats". I don't want to be able to win with linear programming!

I think this plays to teh niche Puresim is good at - let us know what you think!

(in reply to HoschMosch)
Post #: 13
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 8:34:38 PM   
HoschMosch

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		I don´t know, if I play a sport-text sim game the most importent part for me is the Game-Engine and the results. It is nice to see the path of the ball but to know that "behind the scene" it is just random is nothing for me.

HoschMosch

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Post #: 14
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 9:30:45 PM   
puresimmer

 

Posts: 2299
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Whoa,

I hope you don't mean its random in PureSim? The stats engine in PureSim is incredibly detailed and is the product of 5 years of fine tuning. Every pitch of every at bat is simmed, weather, fatigue, player ratings and many other factors greatly influence the outcome of every play.

If you are a real geek you can actually change the engine yourself with the included (and well documented) puresim.xml file. Those tweaks can be redistributed to other users so they can play with say a "deadball" version of the engine.

Be sure to download PureSim 2005 Gold Edition when it becomes available.

(in reply to HoschMosch)
Post #: 15
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 9:58:32 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		I certainly hope my comment didn't get taken that way...

My point is that a game engine that produces rigorous "results over time" might not be the sort of engine that actually recreates a game that well - relying on "things averaging out" rather than occuring in a sequence during a game that is exciting and compelling and ANYTHING but random!

To me Puresim is more like watching a real game via www.mlb.com - with the advantage that MY MANAGEMENT decisions can prove decisive. That to me is "more fun" and more immersive, than a game that is a bit beeter at producing results over 10 years of playing.

Seeing where the ball tends to go is important to adjusting your fielding strategy. In OOTP its purely "situational" since you are not sure where the balls have actually gone. That is far more than just "eye candy" to me. I hope that aspect of teh game can be improved in the future to shore player tendencies and where balls have gone in the game. in Puresim you get a feel for if your pitcher is giving up a lot balls to lefthanded batters down the 3rd base line and such. ou get to try to "play the odds " on several levels.

That is not to say either that Puresim is "deficient" in that - I just think it may be one of those "decision conundrums" that an engine tweaked one way, may have issues at the other end, and vice versa.

In my real work I run up against that al the time - where a model that gets a SEQUENCE OF EVENTS to occur in "realistic" manner, often has trupble with long term statisitics - Its a "fundamental statistics" issue not just a baseball issue!



< Message edited by Paul Vebber -- 8/21/2005 10:04:31 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 10:02:43 PM   
HoschMosch

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		I see "Hit_into_an_Out" and the describtion "You can really move batting avgs up and down by making significant changes to this number". Sorry, but in my book that is not realistic. And I don´t think Pursim is based on DIPS? L/R splits?

Please don´t get me wrong, I think you do a great job and I know how hard it is to have a job and work on a project like this. But I think it is better to describe the way a game works then just to write "The stats engine in PureSim is incredibly detailed [...]." Because good looking stats are not necessary a hint for a realistic (in a way the reality works) game engine.

Again, just my opinion.

HoschMosch

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Post #: 17
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 10:02:43 PM   
Abev

 

Posts: 228
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline 		I am not sure about the 'game engine' of OOTP; I played it for a few days and just couldnt get into it. As far as PS goes, I can't see how it could be miles behind anything. Statistics, game results, game outcomes are all the absolute last things I would fix with PS. Then again, you cant set the price of a hot dog.

(in reply to HoschMosch)
Post #: 18
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 10:08:59 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline
quote:

You can really move batting avgs up and down by making significant changes to this number". Sorry, but in my book that is not realistic.


LIke I said - there are those guys who want to know the exact manner in which the engine computes the outcome of a pitch.

I'm more "effects based" - if the game portrays teh "EFFECT of my decisions and gives me the "feel" that draws me in - I'm happy.

That "detail" vs "effect" bias is there in wargaming as well.

IN some ways "knowing to much of what goes on under teh hood" can spoil the "willing suspension of disbelief".

That goes to the idea of trying to understand the "niches" in teh market, and which to focus on satisfying.

I don't know the correct answer, I'm just providing my opinion as 1 gamer and appreciate hearing others!

(in reply to Abev)
Post #: 19
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 10:11:01 PM   
galaril

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 3/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HoschMosch

I see "Hit_into_an_Out" and the describtion "You can really move batting avgs up and down by making significant changes to this number". Sorry, but in my book that is not realistic. And I don´t think Pursim is based on DIPS? L/R splits?

Please don´t get me wrong, I think you do a great job and I know how hard it is to have a job and work on a project like this. But I think it is better to describe the way a game works then just to write "The stats engine in PureSim is incredibly detailed [...]." Because good looking stats are not necessary a hint for a realistic (in a way the reality works) game engine.

Again, just my opinion.

HoschMosch




(in reply to HoschMosch)
Post #: 20
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 10:36:19 PM   
wesy


Posts: 224
Joined: 2/10/2002
From: Berkeley, CA
Status: offline 		It's great that Matrix is picking up PS. I enjoy it and I also like OOTP. However, for in game experience and statistical accuracy, nothing comes close to Diamond Mind (url is diamond-mind) IMHO. However, it's not a GM simulator, replay only. If you're interested in replay you should defintitely check it out, I own all thrre and it just depends on what i'm looking for on any particular day.

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Post #: 21
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 10:41:10 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		What is it about Diamond Mind that you like?

< Message edited by Paul Vebber -- 8/21/2005 10:43:15 PM >

(in reply to wesy)
Post #: 22
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 11:01:55 PM   
JonnieR

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline 		Diamond Mind is a very accurate statistical rendition of the whatever season you happen to be replaying. However, since the season already took place the replay is somewhat anti-climatic. I own Diamond Mind as well OOTP and Pure Sim.

I prefer PureSim because the management aspect is much more interesting than either of the other products (OOTP is like managing in hospital, extremely sterile, and Diamond Mind doesn't offer the variability of either OOTP or PureSim.

As for the game engine, I program complex simulations for a living, and I believe PureSim produces a far superior simulation when compared to OOTP. Diamond Mind is focused in a different direction, but does an excellent job of "recreating" baseball scenarios based on past statistics. However, it can't generate career modes like PureSim.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 23
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/21/2005 11:25:30 PM   
DandricSturm


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		Overall I prefer PureSim but I'll list a couple things I like about OOTP better. OOTP keeps track of single game records, like hits, K's etc. OOTP keeps separate records for each league if you have more than one (although I don't consider this to be really a big deal) OOTP keeps track of things like no hitters, perfect games, 4 HR games etc. PureSim lists these in "Highlights" but these are wiped after each season.

I do prefer the interface in PureSim, moving from screen to screen with links like a website while OOTP uses more drop down menus. It feels clunkier to me to try and move between looking at rosters and schedules and such in OOTP.

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Post #: 24
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/22/2005 5:39:21 AM   
wesy


Posts: 224
Joined: 2/10/2002
From: Berkeley, CA
Status: offline 		Don't get me wrong - I like each for different reasons - i don't mean to bash at all.

Diamond Mind Baseball is a recreation base on past season stats. Although they do offer Projection Teams as well. So for instance you can buy the game with either past seasons and/or Projection 2005 seasons etc. - they ship projection seasons 2 times I belive once in the winter, then right before the season starts to reflect roster changes. Here are few reasons why I like Diamond-Mind - taken fron their website, but it does make it enjoyable for me - I'm more into the play-by-play than being a GM.

Here's a link to a PC Mag review - it's a weird one it has DMB, PureSim, Inside the Park (not be confused with OOTP), Baseball Mogul - strange brew indeed. DMB won the editor's choice, but I don't know if these are real BBall fans.

ESPN - Projects by Tom Tippett (desiger of DMB)

PC Mag Baseball Reviews

One of the main reason is that I can switch from individual batters to pitch by pitch on the fly. I'll play the game in batter mode until someone gets on base, then I'll go to pitch by pitch mode. I guess like my wargames I like statistical accuracy above playing multiple seasons. etc. That just my preference. I like PS (I paid for it) and OOTP as well, but I prefer DMB.

Here is a little more detail. It's not cheap 49.99 + $20 for season disks - I know w/PS it's free and you can use the Lahman database etc. However, like Shaun, the support from the DMB folks is very very good. I guess more people would compare them to SOM Baseball than either OOTP or PureSim. Check it out there's definitely room for all 3 games on the market!

Pitch-by-Pitch Simulation
Diamond Mind Baseball is the first and only statistically-accurate pitch-by-pitch baseball simulation.

you can call for pitchouts and pickoff throws by pitchers

you can order your hitter to take the 3-0 pitch or give him the green light to swing

pitcher fatigue is based on pitch counts, and to help you keep track, the game displays the number of pitches thrown and the number of strikes

runners are automatically on the move with two out and the count full

the game generates realistic patterns of balls, called strikes, swinging strikes, foul balls and balls put in play, and produces highly-accurate walk and strikeout rates

pitchers throw more strikes when behind in the count, especially with three balls, and expand the strike zone when ahead, while batters swing at strikes more often when behind in the count, especially with two strikes, and are more selective when ahead

batters hit for a higher average and more power when they are ahead in the count, and swing more defensively when behind

when pitchers tire, they have more trouble finding the strike zone, more of their strikes are put into play, and more of the batted balls they allow are hit for power

for those of you who like to play with past seasons, the game accurately reproduces the lower rates of walks and strikeouts that occurred earlier in the century. And you can play realistic games among teams from very different eras, because DMB makes the necessary adjustments.

the game correctly charges walks and strikeouts when substitutions are made in mid-count, as required by rules 10.17(b) and 10.18(h)(3) in the official baseball rule book

We've done detailed studies of real-life manager tendencies using play-by-play and pitch-by-pitch data from recent seasons. We've learned how the count affects decisions made by real-life managers -- which types of hitters are allowed to swing on 3-0 counts; favorite counts on which to steal, hit and run, make pickoff throws, or pitch out; and a lot more. All of this information has been used to provide you with an intelligent computer manager that provides a very challenging opponent and that can be trusted to manage your team when you're playing in a league.






(in reply to DandricSturm)
Post #: 25
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/22/2005 6:08:20 PM   
Abev

 

Posts: 228
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline 		We gotta compare apples to apples here. I am sure if Shaun had a development company to help implement his ideas PS would be a much better product for the "main stream". To me when I look at what was done by ONE person, I am simply amazed.

When Shaun gets a small army of developers, then lets compare. If you remember what PS looked like in the beginning, to what it is now, there is always a progression in the new versions. Heck, a giant like EA Sports and their titles take steps back all the time; how many times have Shauns new versions taken steps backward?

OOTP will cater to more of the main stream. It's 'popier'. But I dont want standing O's and fireworks. Go to Flushing for the former and Chicago for the latter.

I don't know what Matrix role will be in PS if its only distribution, but I surely hope it will be more than that. This is not to take a step backwards in my opinion, PS has a better 'pure' baseball feel.

(in reply to wesy)
Post #: 26
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/23/2005 2:48:24 AM   
dneely


Posts: 227
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline 		I have played and owned all of the sims mentioned here plus PC Action Baseball, APBA and a few others. Of the career sims right now I prefer PureSim over OOTP, but I still play in leagues with OOTP.

The one BIG thing (to me anyway) that separates PS and OOTP from games like DMB is the ability to play online versus a real opponent. Both DMB and PC Action offer that option and there are tons of leagues out there where guys play H-2-H over the net. It is easy, fun, extremely realistic and does not take hours to play. I have constantly asked for more in game managerial options and upgraded text in PureSim because I don't want to just sim my teams games. But for the complete feel of managing your team, making all the crucial decisions there is nothing like DMB. It "feels" like real baseball, has thousands of play outcomes and is a real challenge to manage against an opponent. PureSim is more fun,much prettier and allows you to see your players and grow with them but if you want to truely manage your team a game like DMB or PC Action is very hard to beat.

DNeely

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PureSim Vet

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Post #: 27
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/23/2005 3:23:59 AM   
sd5175

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		I play ootp but I have tried puresim in the past and liked the way it looked and the in game managing which is very important to me. I was real excited when Shaun was going to take on the Total Pro Baseball project. When he left the project ("developing games in stealth" if I remember correctly) He said he wanted to keep Pure Sim fun. He did not think that his gamers wanted real waiver rules. Please do not take this as a Shaun bashing because I have been a big fan of his work from the bbpro and fbpro days. I remember when he annouced he was going to attempt a baseball sim back on one of the old forums we used for Sierra games.My point being that I personally need both GM realism and pitch by pich in game management. Things like 40 man rosters,Waiver rule, minor league options, minor league free agents, rule 5 draft and september callups are such a big part of everyday Major League Baseball news now it feels weird not to have that in games. Baseball is my favorite gaming sport but I find myself not completing seasons because of not having everyhting in one game. I think that last time I finished a season was High Heat 2002 but I only cared about in game managing. Having a real ball flight physics for results was great I had no reason to play God and tweak league totals, creation modifiers or development and aging modifiers. I do not need graphics but a game engine with results based simply on pitch velocity, location and bat speed and a manage only mode I would pay 65 dollars for it.

Paul which game will be released first Max Football or Puresim Gold?

(in reply to Abev)
Post #: 28
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/23/2005 5:13:58 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline
quote:

Paul which game will be released first Max Football or Puresim Gold?


Nothing is cast in stone. My money is on the Baseball game mostly because David Winter is going to be gone for awhile.

Don't hold me to that though...

(in reply to sd5175)
Post #: 29
RE: I play OOTP - how does this compare?? - 8/23/2005 5:32:17 AM   
sd5175

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber


quote:

Paul which game will be released first Max Football or Puresim Gold?


Nothing is cast in stone. My money is on the Baseball game mostly because David Winter is going to be gone for awhile.

Don't hold me to that though...


It is going to be a great year for Matrix. I never knew you guys existed and now I am going to purchase two of your games.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 30
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