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Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral

 
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Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 6:12:25 AM   
Bruckner

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline 		Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral that are made in the city?
Also, I have made Guards out of Jagers by toping them from other Jager units then inserting them into the city which raised their moral. Should that be possible?
Post #: 1
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 10:55:30 AM   
Reg Pither


Posts: 196
Joined: 9/19/2003
From: London
Status: offline 		Yes, barracks level decides the morale of ships produced in that province in the same way as land units.

I believe the creation of Guard units in this way is a bug.

(in reply to Bruckner)
Post #: 2
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 6:12:18 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		Barracks level should only be affecting land units' morale; Docks should affect the morale of newly built ships.

Was the guard created from Jager units in version 1.0 or 1.1? I fixed some of these morale bugs in 1.1, but we may not have caught them all.


(in reply to Reg Pither)
Post #: 3
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 6:33:41 PM   
Reg Pither


Posts: 196
Joined: 9/19/2003
From: London
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

Barracks level should only be affecting land units' morale; Docks should affect the morale of newly built ships.



Ooops.

Does that information match up with the manual? It certainly doesn't match with the pop up info in the game for Docks, which just mentions repair and production rates. So I wasted all those barracks upgrades in my main port! D'oh!

(in reply to ericbabe)
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RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 7:22:45 PM   
Bruckner

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline 		v. 1.1
I did the same with all my units. You just need to top them from other similar units to get to 8.0 morale in a few month time. I've played with 6 Cav units with only 1 soldier missing in one of them, and each month i got a big morale jump up to 9.9.

< Message edited by Bruckner -- 8/25/2005 7:25:51 PM >

(in reply to Reg Pither)
Post #: 5
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 8:11:33 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		Oh yeah, I see the bug in the code... just fixed it.


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RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 8:17:33 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		Hey I'm wrong! Just checked the code and barracks modify both the morale of land base divisions and also the morale of newly created ships!

This is in accord with what the manual says too.

Should we change this???


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Post #: 7
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 8:22:12 PM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, Docks should determine Morale, not Barracks IMO. But in any case, the effect shouldnt be hugely dramatic IMO.

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RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 8:29:17 PM   
Reg Pither


Posts: 196
Joined: 9/19/2003
From: London
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

Hey I'm wrong! Just checked the code and barracks modify both the morale of land base divisions and also the morale of newly created ships!

This is in accord with what the manual says too.

Should we change this???




Phew!

Yes, I think Docks should determine the morale of ships rather than Barracks.

(in reply to ericbabe)
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RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/25/2005 10:25:19 PM   
Bruckner

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline 		Whats the limit on morale? I just got to 11.5

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RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/26/2005 3:32:07 AM   
Jarhead0331

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 1/25/2005
From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
Status: offline 		WAit a second guys...I don't necessarily think docks should affect ship morale...at first blush, it seems like a no brainer...but when thinking about it, morale is a factor of the iron men, not the wooden ships...sailors still live and train in barracks when on land...not in docks...so don't you think barracks should at least play some role, in addition to any role played by docks?

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(in reply to Bruckner)
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RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/26/2005 6:30:20 AM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		To me Barracks level and to and extent, Docks level are simply abstractions of the time/effort/traditions put into the Army or Navy. As such, they should be different. If Austria or Prussia has been developing up their Barracks and troops, that shouldnt mean they can suddenly produce elite navies if they so choose. To do so should require another investment in Docks.

Just my $.02.

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RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/26/2005 10:49:33 AM   
Reg Pither


Posts: 196
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From: London
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

To me Barracks level and to and extent, Docks level are simply abstractions of the time/effort/traditions put into the Army or Navy. As such, they should be different.



That's certainly the way I've always thought of it. In a game of this scale, they're not like the Barracks and Docks of most RTS games, which have a very specific building role. So in CoG's much grander perspective, the Docks aren't simply 'a place where ships are built' but a whole naval infrastructure.



(in reply to Uncle_Joe)
Post #: 13
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/26/2005 11:01:46 AM   
Bruckner

 

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Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline 		Besides, seamen wernt trained in barracks. They where conscripted from the streets, some times by force, and trained on a ship.

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Post #: 14
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/26/2005 2:28:28 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		just remember, most Sailors may not be trained in the same area that the ships are being built, or housed, or stored

in the states, one of the big Naval training bases was on the Great Lakes

LOL for that matter, a lot of pilots were trained to take off and land on Carriers, that wasn't even a ship

over all, think this is part of the hassle with the game system, saying the morale is the difference between good and poor units

(look at WWII, would you rate end of the war Japenese Troops as being uber, if they are based on Morale, you would have too, but training and what they had to work with, would make them poor 2nd rate troops ????)

so.....

Barracks should still effect morale of ships, Docks/Ports should have a effect, but should also be worth something else



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RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/27/2005 3:35:16 PM   
popejoy1

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 8/20/2002
Status: offline 		Hi!

During this time period navies generally relied on the merchant marine or "on-the-job" training in the navy to produce highly trained seamen, while naval infantry ("marines") were trained in barracks and stationed wherever the navy needed them. Officers generally started as teenaged midshipmen (sometimes with formal training, often without) and worked their way up through the chain of command with "on-the-job" training and professional evaluation at each step. At least that was how things worked in the (arguably) best navies of the period: Britain's Royal Navy and the U.S. Navy. Details are available in Brian Lavery's Nelson's Navy: The Ships, Men and Organization 1793 - 1815.

You might want to try using a combination of dockyard level and barracks level to set the morale for naval forces - say 75% dockyard and 25% barracks. This would allow the game to show the importance of having a sound merchant marine upon which a fighting navy would be based, and also to reflect the fact that a lot of ship-to-ship combats were resolved hand-to-hand.

Pablo

< Message edited by popejoy1 -- 8/27/2005 3:36:11 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/27/2005 6:58:46 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		A combination makes a lot of sense...would require two lines of code to modify. 75% docks / 25% barracks? Sounds OK.

(I checked our very original design document and it called for docks' affecting the morale of ships.)


(in reply to popejoy1)
Post #: 17
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/28/2005 3:32:34 AM   
popejoy1

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 8/20/2002
Status: offline 		Eric,

I'm glad to have been of help. If anyone wonders where the "75/25" split came from, it's based on the percentage of Royal Marines on ships (generally 15% prior to 1810; 20% afterwards), with a small bonus thrown in for role in the suppression of mutiny: high quality marines make it somewhat less likely a ship will rout (mutiny) in the face of the enemy.

Pablo

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Post #: 18
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/28/2005 2:11:48 PM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		If you have to go with a ratio then 75/25 is good but I would would weigh it 100% docks. The Docks in my mind reflects the wharves, infrastructure etc. needed to build and maintain a strong fleet including naval barracks. Marines DID NOT train with the land army and were only rarely stationed with them. There are a few exceptions of course but not on the whole.


(in reply to popejoy1)
Post #: 19
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/28/2005 3:27:19 PM   
popejoy1

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 8/20/2002
Status: offline 		Hi!

The way I was thinking about it, docks represent investments in maritime infrastructure, technology, tactics, techniques, procedures, and expertise, while barracks represent the same for land warfare.

It is true that "marines" were distinct from army troops in Great Britain and the U.S., but they drew from the land forces' "barracks" infrastructure (as defined above). I was also thinking of other countries that ordered landmen to sea; for example, French "marines" ("Artillery de la Marine") were not sailors - their job was to fire the ship's cannons while the sailors navigated and maneuvered the ship.

Pablo

(in reply to YohanTM2)
Post #: 20
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/28/2005 6:50:08 PM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Goold point re France. I was indeed thinking more of the US and in particular GB.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popejoy1

Hi!

The way I was thinking about it, docks represent investments in maritime infrastructure, technology, tactics, techniques, procedures, and expertise, while barracks represent the same for land warfare.

It is true that "marines" were distinct from army troops in Great Britain and the U.S., but they drew from the land forces' "barracks" infrastructure (as defined above). I was also thinking of other countries that ordered landmen to sea; for example, French "marines" ("Artillery de la Marine") were not sailors - their job was to fire the ship's cannons while the sailors navigated and maneuvered the ship.

Pablo


(in reply to popejoy1)
Post #: 21
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/28/2005 10:01:59 PM   
plasticpanzers

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline 		Training at either barracks or docks should count only minimally towards a units quality/morale . Expierence does. The longer a unit is in existance the higher its quality/morale should be.
Ships that stay in port should have virtually no real increase as they just sat there. Englands was high
as they were at sea all the time and expierence/morale/
quality increases.
Units in the real period that stayed in one place never
really got "better" they just got comfortable. There
was no realy training beyond "basic training" back then. Units learned in the field or at sea.
Tim

(in reply to YohanTM2)
Post #: 22
RE: Does Barracks lvl affects ship moral - 8/29/2005 4:13:43 AM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		The British Navy was also about the only navy that live fired during drills. Combine that with constantly being at seas versus occasional forays by the continent dwellers and it is not hard to see why they rarely lost a battle.

In fact, often their best ships were thosed captured from the French. It is all about use, not the barracks or docks you come from for the most part.

(in reply to plasticpanzers)
Post #: 23
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