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AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger

 
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AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/4/2005 10:40:06 PM   
ladner

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline 		I am giving thought to working on a 'non-historical' mod to give the Japanese as played by the AI some extra teeth. Most of the assistance will consitent of additonal ship building capacity, armaments production, and possibly some additional heavy industry.

I am contemplating adding some 'what-if' ships to the OOB, like the Project B-65, which was a BC to match the Alaska class. I like some of the ideas from the Iron Storm mod, and may consider some of the ship classes. I may add a hypothetical aircraft, the GM-6 Rita, and move up the production date of the 'Tony'.

But my question now, for which I desire an answer from long time Japanese players and skilled modders. How much ship building can be added to current producion? Looking at the values from the WitPExcel editor there appears to be 500 industry points available to Japan. I realize adding points will drain further oil and resources, I don't plan on making the Japanese resource self sufficient but would like to gain a better understanding of how the various economic factors interact.
Post #: 1
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/5/2005 2:51:11 AM   
ladner

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline 		Bump...

I find it hard to believe that not a single person on this forum has any suggestions.

(in reply to ladner)
Post #: 2
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/6/2005 5:45:45 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		-Your idea is interesting. You´re correct in the sense that every attempt to make Japan stronger will result in faster resource depletion. You could deal with this by 1-Increasing the amount of oil and resources of each base (this would represent, for instance, more developed Japanese industry, able to use resources with more efficiency or to produce more oild/resources) 2-Increasing the stckpiles of supply in Japanese homeland when the game starts 3-Depart from the hypothesis the USSR remained neutral in WWII and sold oil and other resources to Japan and the allies refrained from attacking Soviet shipping. This would result in some additional "off map" supply arriving in Japan, while you should delete the Soviet bases (this is a somewhat fantastic scenario, but anyway it´s what you´re wanting). For hypothetical Japanese planes I would suggest the G8M Rita (a few of them were actually produced), the Ki-83, the Ki-94II (high altitude interceptor) and, maybe, equipping the IJN night fighters with radar.

-An idea I´ve been toying to build a "fantastic mod" would be a "what is if scenario" where Japan started its modernization after the Opium war (1840´s) and not in 1870´s. This would likely result in a more advanced Japanese Army/ Fleet, but wouldn´t fix that resource trouble.

(in reply to ladner)
Post #: 3
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/7/2005 6:59:04 AM   
kellyc

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		When I was looking at it, I tried it from a different perspective instead of upgunning their industry, I was more into making the AI try different tactics however apparently the AI can only be redone in the smaller map scenario size instead of in the campaigns.
By this I mean, have the AI attack Russia (thereby gaining more resources and freeing up more units for the Japanese to use in either China and then onto India.

Just some of my thoughts,
Sincerely
Kelly

_____________________________

Plankowner USS Kauffman (FFG-59).

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 4
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/8/2005 6:52:27 AM   
akdreemer


Posts: 1028
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur

-Your idea is interesting. You´re correct in the sense that every attempt to make Japan stronger will result in faster resource depletion. You could deal with this by 1-Increasing the amount of oil and resources of each base (this would represent, for instance, more developed Japanese industry, able to use resources with more efficiency or to produce more oild/resources) 2-Increasing the stckpiles of supply in Japanese homeland when the game starts 3-Depart from the hypothesis the USSR remained neutral in WWII and sold oil and other resources to Japan and the allies refrained from attacking Soviet shipping. This would result in some additional "off map" supply arriving in Japan, while you should delete the Soviet bases (this is a somewhat fantastic scenario, but anyway it´s what you´re wanting). For hypothetical Japanese planes I would suggest the G8M Rita (a few of them were actually produced), the Ki-83, the Ki-94II (high altitude interceptor) and, maybe, equipping the IJN night fighters with radar.

-An idea I´ve been toying to build a "fantastic mod" would be a "what is if scenario" where Japan started its modernization after the Opium war (1840´s) and not in 1870´s. This would likely result in a more advanced Japanese Army/ Fleet, but wouldn´t fix that resource trouble.


In addition if the results of the 1904 Russian/Japanese war had been that Russia was forced to seccede the provinces located in the Maritime and Amur District then these resources whould have been available. This would have the added benefit of not having the Soviet Army as big of a threat...


_____________________________


(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 5
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/8/2005 1:30:00 PM   
Sharkosaurus rex


Posts: 467
Joined: 10/19/2004
From: under the waves
Status: offline 		I only play PBEM. but if I was going to play against the Jap AI I would:
increase both Jap pilot pools to 10k
increase both Jap pilot replacements to 100 per month
increase both Jap pilot experience to 80
give ALL Jap planes one armour
reduce some of the USA flak their ships have to give Jap planes some chance
increase plane capacity on Jap CV- maybe 70-90
add 500k supply home island
add 200K + supply around map bases
add extra oil and resrource stocks in Japan
give Jap subs some armour 3-4 points
give Japs some naval construction points at start because the AI don't stop Shinano and other crap ships. Maybe take off 100 days production time for some Jap capital ships.

you can make USAcargo ships smaller or take some off production track
reduce some Allied plane replacements
half Allied pilot pools or replacement rate

things along these lines- doesn't have to be historical just take away some of the big disadvantages Japs have.

other things like don't leave your subs in sweeet spots picking off Jap AK, TK TF.

_____________________________

Is Sharkosaurus rex the biggest fish in the sea?
Why don't you come in for a swim?

(in reply to akdreemer)
Post #: 6
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/9/2005 4:23:57 AM   
ladner

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kellyc

When I was looking at it, I tried it from a different perspective instead of upgunning their industry, I was more into making the AI try different tactics however apparently the AI can only be redone in the smaller map scenario size instead of in the campaigns.
By this I mean, have the AI attack Russia (thereby gaining more resources and freeing up more units for the Japanese to use in either China and then onto India.

Just some of my thoughts,
Sincerely
Kelly


You would really have to play under some sort of house rules. If not you would have B-17s raining down destruction on the home islands in '42, heck maybe even right after Pearl. I believe there was a poster on this forum by the name of Hirohito who had a Russia first strategy, I recall a lot of debate about this but don't remember the details if it was sucessful or not.

(in reply to kellyc)
Post #: 7
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/9/2005 4:27:13 AM   
ladner

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline 		Would having a limited maybe 10-15 point ship repair yard at Truk, greatly help the Japanese AI? Has the AI gotten better about sending damaged ships to the nearest port? Or does it still try to make the long haul to the home islnads only to sink well before hand.

(in reply to ladner)
Post #: 8
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/9/2005 5:48:18 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:


In addition if the results of the 1904 Russian/Japanese war had been that Russia was forced to seccede the provinces located in the Maritime and Amur District then these resources whould have been available. This would have the added benefit of not having the Soviet Army as big of a threat...


-That´s a good idea to create a powerful Japan, let us see, lots of Ki-84´s in mid 1943, with high octane avgas, and so, able to reach 690kph, maybe the A7M2 operating from CV´s in early 1944, three or four more fleet carriers, and all this relying on supplies capture from Russia. Tell me one thing, how much resources do we have in this area?

(in reply to akdreemer)
Post #: 9
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/9/2005 8:16:44 AM   
trojan58


Posts: 266
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: bendigo, Victoria, Australia
Status: offline 		boost japanese industry earlier to simulate a earlier move to a total war footing. Increase home island resourses and oil to represent synthetic oil/rubber tech purchased from Germany. Change AA on ships to 37mm and 20mm. Assumes Japan learned the lessons from Europe and purchased licences for better AA guns from Sweden etc. Modernize the Army. Better Tanks (German designs) and Mech Troops available in 43 to 45. Add the Fw190 to the Army Airforce. One was purchased in Late 42 but never shipped. Makes a good what if. Add German radars to night fighters. Include the G6M heavy bomber and a heavy float bomber (designed for the I 400 subs).

_____________________________

There are two types of ships in the world

Submarines and Targets

D.B.F

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 10
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/9/2005 8:45:57 AM   
Sharkosaurus rex


Posts: 467
Joined: 10/19/2004
From: under the waves
Status: offline 		Play with the Allied damage control bonus turned OFF.


_____________________________

Is Sharkosaurus rex the biggest fish in the sea?
Why don't you come in for a swim?

(in reply to trojan58)
Post #: 11
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/9/2005 1:24:32 PM   
ladner

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

Play with the Allied damage control bonus turned OFF.



Maybe this is your pet peeve, and maybe it would help handicap the AI, but it really has nothing to do with making a mod. It is just a matter of toggling a switch on the options menu. The intent of this discussion is modding the database/scenario files to assist the AI, so please stay on topic.

Sorry if this comes across the wrong way, the written word, does not allow for body language or other cues during a discussion that can soften or change the perception of how something is meant. So my intent is not to be abbrassive just to keep the thread on topic.

I have spent many hours editing files, and when I look at this thread I am always eager for anyone's constructive input. Especially from those who have modified the game extensively and monitored how the AI handles the added equipment/changes.

I am intrigued by discussion in a different thread regarding how the AI reacts in CHS and does things that have surprised long term WitP players. So please keep this in mind when posting. Thanks.

< Message edited by ladner -- 8/9/2005 1:32:29 PM >

(in reply to Sharkosaurus rex)
Post #: 12
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/10/2005 5:15:09 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:


boost japanese industry earlier to simulate a earlier move to a total war footing. Increase home island resourses and oil to represent synthetic oil/rubber tech purchased from Germany. Change AA on ships to 37mm and 20mm. Assumes Japan learned the lessons from Europe and purchased licences for better AA guns from Sweden etc. Modernize the Army. Better Tanks (German designs) and Mech Troops available in 43 to 45. Add the Fw190 to the Army Airforce. One was purchased in Late 42 but never shipped. Makes a good what if. Add German radars to night fighters. Include the G6M heavy bomber and a heavy float bomber (designed for the I 400 subs).


-A question. What are the raw materials you need to make synthetic oil and how is the conversion rate? On Fw-190, what would be the advantage of such a plane when compared with a Frank with high octane avgas (or alternatively, how a Fw-190 flying with a low octane avgas should be rated). I´m asking you that because the Ki-84, which was able to fly at 630km/h in Japanese hands, was tested with American avgas after the war and reached 690km/h. On the heavy bomber, I think you mean the G8N (Rita). The G6M was actually a fighter (???) version of the Betty, not a particularly impressive design....
http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/g4m.htm
The G8N, on the other hand, would have been a good bomber, it was fast (590km/h) , althought her payload was somewhat limited (2500kg).

(in reply to trojan58)
Post #: 13
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/10/2005 6:25:22 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Adding stuff won't make the AI stronger, it will just increase the number of VPs you will collect. Whether it docks 1 CV in Rabaul with no CAP or 100, the AI is still woefully inadequate.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 14
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/10/2005 6:36:11 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Since the scenario will not be historical, why does it have to start in 1941 ??..
America did not really go on a war-footing till after Pearl Harbor"(but had started building up. By starting a year later, you can give the Japanese more time to develop and deploy.
Maybe in that extra year, they might have "found" an oil field of their own in the Kuriles,(which is rich with fossil fuels and coal..)..
Giving the Allies "smaller ships" is just a temporary bandage handicapping them,but I believe my suggestions (and a few of the others) have merit for your regard.....

_____________________________




(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 15
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/10/2005 8:20:25 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		"Would having a limited maybe 10-15 point ship repair yard at Truk, greatly help the Japanese AI? Has the AI gotten better about sending damaged ships to the nearest port? Or does it still try to make the long haul to the home islnads only to sink well before hand."


I've noticed that the AI appears to be trying to send the damaged ships to the nearest port with a repair yard. I've seen ships sink that appeared to be heading from the battlefield near Timor towards Singapore (whereas if they were to try to go to Japan, they would have travelled nearly the opposite direction). This leads me to believe that a small repair yard in Truk would be helpful.


_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 16
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/12/2005 2:07:50 AM   
ladner

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 8/24/2001
From: Virginia USA
Status: offline 		bradfordkay -

I have added this to the mod, will have to test it out at some point, may run an hands-off AI vs. AI game, to see how things fare.

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 17
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/25/2005 4:54:17 PM   
kaiser73


Posts: 394
Joined: 7/28/2004
Status: offline 		I was doing something similar. Having played some AI and lot of PBEM, i can help by telling my impressions on what a PBEM opponet does that AI doesn't:
1) Training - Pilots is the key resource for Japan. All PBEM players use Mogami method and constantly train squadrons by bombing undefended enemy bases. AI doesn't do that.
Suggestion: increase pilot replenishment for IJA and IJN to 250 each. This will boost AI in mid 42 but won't affect late war where pilots enters the game with bad experience.
This way allied opponent will face full squadrons of 60-75 exp pilots for all '42 and '43, as happened historically.
2) Military Production - PBEM players maximize their industry, always get resources and oil, tweack nakajima engines. This makes Japan building lot more "useful" aircrafts. To simulate this, i would personally increase x2 factories of all engines, i would increase a lot aircraft factories to have AI getting 300 zeroes/month and others aircrafts as well. i would also increase resources/oil/HI in homeislands to make the industry sustain this boosted industry.
3) lower supply in west coast for allies (look andrew map)

that's my 2 cents.

(in reply to ladner)
Post #: 18
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/26/2005 9:09:04 AM   
akdreemer


Posts: 1028
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur



quote:


In addition if the results of the 1904 Russian/Japanese war had been that Russia was forced to seccede the provinces located in the Maritime and Amur District then these resources whould have been available. This would have the added benefit of not having the Soviet Army as big of a threat...


-That´s a good idea to create a powerful Japan, let us see, lots of Ki-84´s in mid 1943, with high octane avgas, and so, able to reach 690kph, maybe the A7M2 operating from CV´s in early 1944, three or four more fleet carriers, and all this relying on supplies capture from Russia. Tell me one thing, how much resources do we have in this area?



Check here, for one thing Japanese domestice oil would increase dut to her being in full control of the Sakhlin oil fields... Also much more resources...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_natural_resources



_____________________________


(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 19
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/27/2005 6:17:35 AM   
Burzmali

 

Posts: 312
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Boston
Status: offline 		The more resources you give the AI, the faster it will piss them away...

As soon as it gets caught making the same mistake over and over, what good would having tons of extra resources make?

(in reply to akdreemer)
Post #: 20
RE: AI Mod - that is mod to make Japanese AI stronger - 8/27/2005 8:32:12 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Check here, for one thing Japanese domestice oil would increase dut to her being in full control of the Sakhlin oil fields... Also much more resources...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_natural_resources



-Thanks a lot, how to translate it in WiTP terms?

(in reply to akdreemer)
Post #: 21
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