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why not a open beta? - 9/1/2005 1:26:56 AM   
wheeljack12

 

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Since you will need all the help you can get, why not go with a open beta. A marketing thing here. It called Maximum Football, I am thinking Maximum Exposure for the game here. I mean most of the people who are going to start out playing the game are here anyhow. We can all chip in on the process. Heck, put a time lock on the game so we can't use it past a certain date so that David doesn't get cheated out of work and profits.
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RE: why not a open beta? - 9/1/2005 2:44:39 AM   
Grumpus

 

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There are several reasons why not to do an open beta. Bear in mind that I am DEFINITELY NOT speaking for David nor anyone at Matrix Games. I'm speaking solely from the perspective of a developer. They may have completely different reasons for not doing an open beta. I'll list a few common ones, though that probably might maybe have a lot to do with it.

1) If the game is open you end up with a very poor signal to noise ratio. By this, I mean that you invariably have a lot of people who aren't reporting bugs or interface/usability issues, but rather, they are petitioning for new features to be added. As you can see by these forums, there are already discussions with folks who are upset that such and so won't be included in the initial release. There are also, invariably, people who can't communicate very well - be it because of language differences or simple unfamiliarity with the terminology used in either/both computer game development and/or football. So, you get a bunch of reports of bugs that are probably real and valid, but they are very difficult to track down because the person either didn't bother to or was incapable of properly describing the bug so that it could be duplicated and tracked down.

But, if you screen everyone and ensure that they have a good level of understanding (in this case, they need to understand Football, Computer Programming, or preferably, some of both), then you can be reasonably sure that the bug reports are going to be easier to track down, and thus, they can be fixed quickly. Thus, there are no "I know there's some sort of "3rd and Goal" bug in the game, but I can't find it - guess we'll have to hold off releasing it until I do..."


2) Costs: During beta testing periods, updates can come quite quickly. I've worked on projects where we were releasing updates twice a day since our programming team was on both sides of the Atlantic. Two updates a day - almost every day - for about 3 weeks. If we had opened it up to everyone, and lots of people had signed up, our bandwidth costs for updating everyone would have been outrageous.

3) Piracy: If you go with an open beta, you need to add things into the software - stuff that makes it expire after a certain period of time, or do something to make it so that people actually have to buy the game when beta is over. (For all I know, this has already been done for this game - I'm not privy to such things, obviously). If it's an open beta, a hacker will get their hands on the software anyway, so that protection is useless. With a closed beta, though, there are only a handful of people who have access to the game and the odds are pretty good (if the screeners are any good) that you're not going to have to worry about it.


And finally - a beta test has nothing to do with marketing. In fact, one of the biggest risks a software developer can run is to let too much out of the bag before everything is ready to go. This is especially true for small developers. Since so few people have had their hands on this game, and I'm sure David doesn't have a bunch of different computers with varying configurations lying around, there are likely going to be hiccups on various things - whether it's a rogue video chipset that messes up the player meshes on the screens or whether it's something getting divided by zero on an old Pentium machine. Basically, there are lots of problems that can occur on some systems and which won't manifest themselves at all on other machines. And, of course, what if there is a game siutation or program usage that wasn't considered for whatever reason? What if it is a big problem?

With open betas, each of these little problems gets amplified and often blown way out of proportion (I've seen it happen). Because everyone has access to it, everyone is talking about it - and you know that everyone ends up focusing on the bad stuff over the good. So, IF (and everything may be fine - which is why I labeled this section as a "risk" and not an inevitability) something goes wrong, it can hurt the game's marketability before it even gets released. Things like "Holy cow - that beta I tried was so full of bugs! There's no way I'm going to pay $30 for that game when it comes out!!" can kill you.

---

So, anyway, those are a few that popped into my mind off the top of my head - it's faster, more efficient, cheaper, and safer. Plus there's no chance of bad press about that status of the game should a bunch of unforseen bugs pop up. (I should note that bugs ARE inevitable in a beta, and sometimes - not even really the fault of the programmer - there are lots more than were expected because of hardware and OS variances and so on. So, it really is quite risky to let it out to the general public before it's been put through its paces).

Matrix and David may have additional and/or a completely different set of reasons for doing it this way. And, in fact, I would guess that they probably won't feel obligated to answer in anything more than in vague and general terms because it's really a matter of internal policy and personal preferences.

But, it should ease your mind that in nearly 100% of all cases, closed beta products move through testing and into production considerably faster than ones with open betas. The signal to noise ratio I mentioned above is a really critical element to getting it fixed quickly and correctly. So, hopefully, we'll be playing this game before Thanksgiving. (That's what I'm hoping for! But it could definitely be sooner, I suppose).

G.

P.S. Matrix Folks and Dave - hope I didn't step on any toes here - I was merely hoping to explain the concepts in general terms and I tried to be clear that I wasn't speaking on either of your behalves.

(in reply to wheeljack12)
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RE: why not a open beta? - 9/1/2005 10:02:41 PM   
wheeljack12

 

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For no. 1) That is why you don't use direct communication with the users. You have a system in place that just reports bugs back (like windows error reporting, but without the choice, you either have the internet or don't use the beta). I mean technical bugs like the game doesn't start or get past a splash screen here, not the his head is too big bugs. And doesn't the artistic stuff like that get checked in Alpha stages? I asked david is he was supporting the dual video cards (being one programmer I wouldn't expect too much), his answer is no. I use a Nvidia SLI setup. Now, for myself, I can figure out how to enable/disable single and dual video cards, but the example here is some people will buy this game expecting it to run on most hardware configurations. Especially when a company generalizes their requirements for some components. I Know they have to generalize to a certain degree based on who tested more than likely. But a broader range of people gives you a better idea of what to expect for the game results.

2) A beta tester is a not an employee or the owner of a company. They are contracted by the company to help a product enter the market without major problems. So, if the money isn't in place for a wide test, than that is the companies fault especially if they did per say want to open beta test.

3) Put it this way, is David and Matrix games doing a criminal check on the Beta Testers or something? Unless again the money is in place to do so and the people are interviewed in person, then it's little paranoid to think everyone is a child of the skull and bones. And to protect it like I said in the 1st place, put a timer on the game that buried deep in the game code (In other words, harder for the pirate to find) that only allows a time frame for them to use.

4)Beta test sure as heck to have something to do with marketing. A major portion of your MMORPG's are getting public betas now. I would rather know something before I get it to market and let the public know I can fix it before I sell. Takes the pressure off of sales in the sense of possible embarrassment and more time spent after the release getting patches made. Gives you a good reputation of getting taking your time and getting things ready properly rather than fast. Remember, if one person goes to a company and likes it, he will tell hundreds of others about it. Much the opposite if they aren't a good company. That is why David has more than likely taken so long in getting the product ready. Make sure it's done right this time vs. his CFL 99 which was not so good to say the least. Madden in past years had to make major patches graphically and game wise after the fact that got many customers angry and leaving the game for others/or a console. Read your next paragraph after your fourth point and you may tend to agree here.


BTW, The previous comments do not reflect the employees of Matrix games or David Winter,aka Winter Valley Software.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/18/2005 4:24:10 AM   
Silverbullet


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Pure Sim Baseball was always open beta. The participation of the people who helped with the beta testing ( I was one ) contributed much usefull feed back to the project.
The Pure Sim forum was and still is a group of dedicated "simmers" who appreciated being a part of the process. The developer Shaun Sullivan is a one man show who has shown that open beta can work.


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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/18/2005 3:17:49 PM   
DandricSturm


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Many beta releases of PureSim contained debugging where you didn't need to know a darn thing about programming or baseball. If a bug showed up, a file was generated that could be emailed to Shaun.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/20/2005 6:56:35 AM   
Tbird


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I don't know much about coding a game but doesn't having an open beta involve extra work to strip the game down to make sure it becomes unplayable when it comes time to release the full version. I know most people would be satisfied with just having the beta in there possesion and would probably just download it and never comeback to report any bugs.

Whenever I see a beta download of a game I just download it and I never report bugs to anyone :D If it's a kickass game and it has online play I tell my friends to download it also and it never crosses anybody's mind to report any bugs.

< Message edited by Tbird -- 10/20/2005 6:58:42 AM >


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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/20/2005 4:13:52 PM   
wheeljack12

 

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Pardon the overtone here. But if you read my replies and thread start you would notice I am trying to give David a hint by getting him (if possible) to make a open beta with a timer coded into it that would stop the playability after a period of time. But since the decision is to go closed beta and seems it has already started, it's pointless to get that change now.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/21/2005 12:35:37 AM   
Tbird


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There's cracks out there that can crack time trials and they ain't specific to a single software program

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/23/2005 1:46:57 AM   
wheeljack12

 

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well, don't you think that scares the distributor/developer when they make a final release for sale also? My idea is to make the game so that it's shows friendliness to the potential buyer to get the game if a demo doesn't make it's way out 1st.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/25/2005 11:41:08 PM   
Brockleigh


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Regardless of timers and other do-dads to prevent an open beta from being used after the game has been released, the main reason the beta is not open is intellectual property.

Right now, Max-Ftb's main competitor is EA Sports and it's Madden Franchise. EA Sports is currently and not-so-subtely trying to create a de facto monopoly on the Sports Game genre. Last year, their main competitor in the Football and Hockey console market was 2K Sports and NFL and NHL 2K5 releases. Those games retailed at $29.99 and had the ESPN license that gave the games a Big Time feel. In order to make the games less palatable, this year EASports gobbled up the rights for the ESPN name, keeping 2K sports from using it, and really making the games have a stipped down, minor league feel.

Right now, EA Sports is raking in all the cash from a barren PC Football market. An open Max-Ftb beta would allow EA to get a look at what may grab a serious portion of their market share, and who knows what features they may quick-patent or copyright to keep from being in the final release of Dave's game.

Everyone wants to get a hold of this game. I can't watch a CFL game without jumping on this forum to see when Max-Ftb will be released. Those of us who have been around since the WinterValleySoftware forum and CFL 99 have waited a long time and have exhibited a lot of patience in waiting for this game. I can't blame people for being anxious for the game's release, or for wanting to get their hands on whatever they can. I would say however, that more patience is the order of the day. I've waited this long. I can wait a bit longer.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/26/2005 6:08:45 PM   
wheeljack12

 

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now that part makes sense. Corporate espionage. EA wants to be similar to Microsoft in gobbling up the competition and using it for themselves. The question I have is this, when can a video game or it's technology get a patent on it's property? I was always curious since video games can be a constant work in progress (either development or patches). David got the one up by making use of forgotten technology and some of it's staff for a period of time. I am referring to the sierra series. Mention that here and it's noticed. Mention Sierra on Maddenmania and they go "what is that" or they don't know how much the sierra game pioneered football gaming. My idea here is that I would agree that this game has some things that would make EA want to improve their "arcade sim" version of football.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/27/2005 1:37:23 AM   
Magnum357

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brockleigh

, and who knows what features they may quick-patent or copyright to keep from being in the final release of Dave's game.


Actually, I disagree with this portion of your statement. Under Copyright laws, you can't put a copyright on a rule system or idea. If David has a way of making a feature works in his game, there is nothing EA Sports can do to stop him. And as for Patents, they only apply to Physical things in the world, and again you can't put a Patent on a rule system or idea.

But I do agree that this game has taken a long time to get finish. But after experiencing Football Pro 99's debacle, I can wait a bit longer for a good product.

< Message edited by Magnum357 -- 10/27/2005 1:46:21 AM >

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/27/2005 5:31:15 AM   
Brockleigh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magnum357


Actually, I disagree with this portion of your statement. Under Copyright laws, you can't put a copyright on a rule system or idea.


Sure they can, Magnum357. Otherwise there wouldn't be a little ® behind the QB Vision Control in this years Madden, protecting it from being used by competitors. Copyright applies to all manner of intellectual property, and it's application is rather broad.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/27/2005 5:34:34 AM   
Panzeh

 

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That isn't really true. You can make a feature identical to the QB vision control of Madden, but you can't call it "QB Vision Control". ® applies to trademarks, not ideas.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/27/2005 6:51:07 PM   
wheeljack12

 

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Panzeh, copyrights aren't based on what you name something. It's how close to the patented product you make something. If David did as exactly as you said, make a similar system to the qb vision but calls Max Football vision, he can still be taken to court over the similarities of the two passing systems because one looks like the other and not just it's naming. And with Companies like EA who have more money at stake, you can sure that will protect their investments.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/28/2005 9:06:15 AM   
Magnum357

 

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Sorry, still have to disagree with you. You just can't copyright an idea period! And you can't copyright a method or a rule system, that basically means if David makes a feature and it happens to be similar to something Madden has as a feature, there really is nothing EA Sports can do to stop him because the courts can only protect so much of a copyright. For example, lets say you take the game Monopoly. The rules and the way the system is played is not protected under its copyright, just the names, litirature, and art is protected under the copyright. So someone else out there could make a game that has the same basic mechanics as Monopoly but has different names and artwork. In fact, that person could apply a copyright to protect his game just as Monopoly can protect there game. Ya, Monopoly could take the guy to court, but the Judge would say "well, we can protect you if this guy copied stuff exactly like your game, but he didn't. Yes, his rules are exactly or very similar to Monopoly, but we can't protect you there".

If you want to check this out, just go to this link...

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html#what_protect

As for the QB vision thing, I'm not sure David even cares about a "Cone vision" for his game, but if he did like Penzah had indicated, the Trademark protects the name of the feature not the feature itself.

< Message edited by Magnum357 -- 10/28/2005 9:24:45 AM >

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/28/2005 7:05:12 PM   
wheeljack12

 

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magnum, most copyright cases are won based on art or similar appearances of a copyrighted item. Mainly because some ideas are so complex in written form that sometimes it needs to be seen. For example, I go to court and the judge needs to see the final representation (image and art) of the product of which I would have to show on a pc for example. Then the other guy stealing my stuff shows his version. Both his version and mine look the same but are called different names. I would win the case based on the fact his idea when shown in it's final product is a little too close to the original item. Meaning that my unfair competition either has to change his idea to suit the courts or remove it completely from his software.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/29/2005 1:32:39 AM   
Magnum357

 

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I'm sorry, but I still disagree. Its says right under copyright law that Copyrights CAN NOT protect an idea. There is a reason why the courts did this, its because if they allowed anyone to copyright ideas or systems of operations you would have everything copyrighted in the world. Its easy for a court to see a peice of Artwork or a word and determine that this is protected under a copyright, but how can you copyright a thought or an idea. It goes against one of the first basic principles of how the United States was built apon... Freedom of speech and ideas.

Now, I highly doubt David is interested in a "Vision Cone" feature, as that would be more useful to Arcade gamers that play with a gamepad. I think Max Football is more designed as a coach Sim so we are really arguing over nothing.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/29/2005 6:13:07 AM   
Tbird


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I think that's why Marvel is sewing the makers of City of heroes

Character similarities

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/29/2005 7:19:13 PM   
Brockleigh


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Magnum357,

What you fail to grasp is that once an idea is worked into it's intended form and onto a medium, it then can be protected by copyright. That's all it takes. EA could, conceivably, see what David is working on, rush something onto it's working engine for Madden, high-tail it down to the Copyright office, and say, "Hey, I want to protect this." At that point, it's no longer an idea. It's a working prototype.

...and I only brought up the Vision Cone thing was just an example, I never meant to insinuate that David was putting it into the game.

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RE: why not a open beta? - 10/30/2005 8:41:39 PM   
wheeljack12

 

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magnum357, if you went to the patent building, you would more than likely see a whole bunch of "ideas" that never took a physical form. But they are still patented against copyrighting. The ideas are written with a visual representation of the idea usually. So, if you can see it or describe it in a visual form, it can be copyrighted. And I agree about the vision cone, he don't want it. That is why I used it as a EXAMPLE of how a idea can be copyrighted.

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