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3 years and nothing changed - 9/5/2005 10:18:43 PM   
AndrewC

 

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< Message edited by AndrewC -- 9/28/2005 9:20:44 AM >
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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/5/2005 10:38:27 PM   
Tophat

 

Posts: 460
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From: Cleveland,Ohio
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Can you give some specifics? Overall the quality of Rumanian troops and equitment on the eastern front was less than stellar. Though i'll give you that they were better than Bulgarian troops!

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Post #: 2
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/5/2005 11:06:24 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		AndrewC, there's nothing to prevent you from using the in-game OOB Editor to present your own version of the Romanian OOB. As far as the morale/experience ratings are concerned, the game editor allows you to save a campaign/scenario and make these ratings whatever you want them to be.

My personal feeling is that the new national ratings as presented in 8.4 are more historical than before, but opinions differ. What's funny about this is that I argued successfully that the ratings for my favorites (the USMC) were actually too HIGH for the early war period (1941-1942).

If you want a sense of real frustration, try playing as the Russians in 1939-41.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 9/5/2005 11:13:21 PM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 6:39:28 AM   
AndrewC

 

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< Message edited by AndrewC -- 9/28/2005 9:20:59 AM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 6:41:25 AM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		The Morale cut in 8.4 really hits these smaller nations, who probably had plenty of reasons to fight in real life. Troops with low morale (which smaller nations tend to rely on more) especially suffer in 8.4). Without good morale they degrade in status and retreat too easily from entrenchments into open ground without the need for attacking artillery. They are more likley to get pinged for tank panic and run from defences if tank closes and wont get to initiate an assault. Their leaders cannot rally them. It makes their troops nearly unplayable on the field. For me turning up troop quality levels boosts experience over morale to much and then minor nations troops get a bit too much iniative and aggression. I don't see why these smaller nations should be so bad (especially on defence), i'm sure they had proud fighters, just not up too date with blitzkrieg standards. Turning up rout/rally and troop toughness helps but the mix seems wrong. They seem to do more running than fighting which aint right.
I'm Australian and have a Finnish mother so naturally i'm happy with their representation in WAW , but i could certainly understand how some others are not. I'd like to raise morale for nearly all countries except Germany and Finland but cant seem to do it. Looked at a hex editor but couldnt figure it out. Dunno how Panzer Leo did it ?
Can it be done ?

< Message edited by soldier -- 9/6/2005 7:05:44 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 9:28:45 AM   
Adamo

 

Posts: 185
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Status: offline 		how do you think I feel, I'm Italian!


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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 10:31:46 AM   
soldier

 

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quote:

Who is in charge of development?

Mike Wood, the lead programmer made the changes in 8.4 himself, I don't know if the rest of Matrix were involved or if he has an agenda against Romania (Bulgaria & Italy) but he certainly put their experience & morale levels to the sword. Its a massacre really. To be honest i think slightly lower experience levels works well but he did make some large cuts and then slashed morale as well to almost civillian levels (25 each for Rumania in 45, how did they get that bad while fighting ?). I recommend H2H where Rumania and others have a more realistic appraisal and their infantry actually fight.

(in reply to Adamo)
Post #: 7
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 11:03:03 AM   
ranXerox

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline 		I'm finnish and i'm very disappointed about those experience levels SPWAW currently has.

Let me explain something first. Finland fought 3 wars in WW2; "Winter War" against Russia in 11/1939-3/1940, "Continuation War" 6/1942-9/1944 against Russian also. And finally after peace with russians, "The Lappland War" against german forces still in Finland 9/1944-4/1945.

// LEADER EXPERIENCE
{70,70,70,65,65,60,60}, //FINNISH

So, Finland's army(leaders too) was small and more or less unexperienced in action and unprepared to fight against russians in 1939, so too high experience there. But experience got better when "Continuation war" was launched to attack russia. Many "Winter War" veterans were among those who had to go to the next two wars. So IMHO totally wrong levels here. Levels should be turned around starting from 60..

// LEADER MORALE
{70,70,70,65,65,60,55}, //FINNISH

Leader morale was very high throughout the wars, not going down to pitiful 55.. Finland did fight *with* germany, but did not go down with them, due the peace with russians saved Finlands arse being overrun&conquered. IMHO, level 70 at start is ok but it should still be something like 65 at the end.

// TROOPS EXPERIENCE
{70,70,70,65,65,60,60}, //FINNISH

70 in 1939 is too high, should be like 60 or something. Then it gets higher until 1943 and starts to go down again, because of loss of men was very high in "Continuation War" against russians in 1943-1944.

// TROOPS MORALE
{70,70,70,65,65,60,55}, //FINNISH

Morale was very high in "Winter War", should be more than 70 if possible. Morale did go down after that but never to levels presented here, 55. The last number represents year 1945 when Finland only fought against Germany and was very motivated to get them out in time. Because the peace deal with russians had time limit when germans had to be out of Finland.

Only problem with finnish troops was the quantity and lack of armaments. I hope these experience/morale levels do not try to present anything else than just what they are. So I think levels here are wrong and maybe with others small countries too. :)


(in reply to soldier)
Post #: 8
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 4:05:33 PM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
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quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

The Morale cut in 8.4 really hits these smaller nations, who probably had plenty of reasons to fight in real life. Troops with low morale (which smaller nations tend to rely on more) especially suffer in 8.4). Without good morale they degrade in status and retreat too easily from entrenchments into open ground without the need for attacking artillery. They are more likley to get pinged for tank panic and run from defences if tank closes and wont get to initiate an assault. Their leaders cannot rally them. It makes their troops nearly unplayable on the field. For me turning up troop quality levels boosts experience over morale to much and then minor nations troops get a bit too much iniative and aggression. I don't see why these smaller nations should be so bad (especially on defence), i'm sure they had proud fighters, just not up too date with blitzkrieg standards. Turning up rout/rally and troop toughness helps but the mix seems wrong. They seem to do more running than fighting which aint right.
I'm Australian and have a Finnish mother so naturally i'm happy with their representation in WAW , but i could certainly understand how some others are not. I'd like to raise morale for nearly all countries except Germany and Finland but cant seem to do it. Looked at a hex editor but couldnt figure it out. Dunno how Panzer Leo did it ?
Can it be done ?

Well old mate all things are possible in the land of OZ. You should know that. Its on my job list with about 5 other things..

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Post #: 9
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 4:45:56 PM   
Sturmpionier


Posts: 99
Joined: 4/29/2002
From: Jennings, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewC

It's got to be someone with an agenda against Romania, otherwise I can't explain it.



ROTFL! I'm sorry, but I just got a mental picture of some programmer getting up in the morning, finishing his breakfast, & then sitting down at his computer to work on SPWaW.

"Now to further my agenda against Romania," the Matrix programmer said in a low, raspy voice, then threw his head back and laughed with an evil cackle not heard since the days of Atila.

Ha Ha Ha! I think I just broke a blood vessel.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 8:36:49 PM   
Adamo

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 3/14/2002
Status: offline 		I'm not downplaying the complaints being made here but I think we should look at the 'big picture'. The people who design this game put lots of time into it and to 'call' them on something like the morale of a certain countries' units is 'nitpicking' in my opinion. If, when playing the game, you feel that the morale of your favorite countries' units is affecting your ability to enjoy the game then learn how to use the editor and change the morale values yourself; don't come here and claim that there's an 'agenda against Romania'. My family is from Italy, so I like to play many scenarios that involve Italian units. I realize that the Italian army was not considered the MVP of the second World War. The low morale of Italian units in the game actually increases the challenge for me. That's how I look at it.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents!

adam

(in reply to Sturmpionier)
Post #: 11
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 8:44:53 PM   
monty pete


Posts: 6
Joined: 10/7/2004
Status: offline 		The Romaniam troops on the Eastern Front sucked that is why their morale levels etc are so low because in reality the Romanian army of world war two was quite terrible. Granted that when everything was fine and dandy in the first year (1941) the Romanians managed to do some good, even in early 42 they were ok (Crimea etc) but they really screwed up after that, part of the dabacle at Stalingrad was thanks to the ineptitude of the Romanian and Hungarian forces to the North and South of Stalingrad. So instead of saying that this game, which is damn realistic in terms of troop quality etc, is a crock of ****, perhaps you should reevaluate your country's conduct during the war, after all you did technically switch sides in late 44 did you not?

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 8:49:59 PM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Actually, the Romanians didn't perform well in 1941, either. They bungled the siege of Odessa and had to have German troops help them out.

BTW, the German opinion of the Romanian army was that while the individual Romanian soldier was a tough and resourceful fighter, they were let down by corrupt and uncaring officers. This was a sentiment that the Germans applied to most of their minor Axis allies, as well as the Italians.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/6/2005 8:54:59 PM   
monty pete


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quote:

Finland did fight *with* germany, but did not go down with them, due the peace with russians saved Finlands arse being overrun&conquered.


HAHAHA You call the deal you signed with Russia something that saved you?! You just were afraid of being over run by the Russians which suggests to me that a lot of those men who are rightly called heroes(those who fought in the winter war) were betryed/ died out by the time of the Lapland war.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 12:55:54 AM   
AndrewC

 

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< Message edited by AndrewC -- 9/28/2005 9:21:22 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 1:11:27 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		Well If I could alter the mech.exe, I would adjust them in my next Mod release, I kinda like using the Romanians, but alas, I am helpless...

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 3:06:46 AM   
Svennemir

 

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From: Denmark
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quote:

As usual, anglo-americans talking out of their rear ends about a subject they know very little about or don't care enough to research it properly.

Look, AndrewC, why don't you behave a little more politely? Or maybe that was your national characteristic? I don't want to start a flame war, but come on.

On the constructive side, you should provide page numbers with your quotes. I may have a Beevor book right here, but I wouldn't want to look through 450 pages to confirm the statements. While that applies to the other people here as well, you're the one who wants to change something.

Oh, and by the way, I think some minor nations should have their ratings increased as well.

(in reply to Alby)
Post #: 17
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 3:12:11 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I agree. Most every nation should be bumped back up somewhat. We went from one extreme to the other. Most minor nations should have their morales bumped up a little higher than their leadership and experience ratings are. While they may have been porrly led and inexperienced, they stood and fought. In the game now, there is no way that they do.




Goblin

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Post #: 18
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 4:45:41 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi Post your opinion. Design your own OOB but refrain from being obscene or rude. In the end you are complaining about a game you play for free. Design scenarios depicting historic actions and assign the values you think are accurate.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 4:52:18 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		A lot of a soldiers' fighting ability is reflected in his nations willingness to be in a war. The Rumanians were not all that fond of the German "cause",and allying Rumania with Germany seemed to be King Constantines' only hope of any kind of "independant rule" under the threat of a possible German occupation, and then too, the Russians had a reason to *intentionally* hit the Rumanians when they chose to cut off Stalingrad.
The Germans reportedly felt they *had* to put a battalion of German troops with each 2 battalions of "non-German troops", in order to maintain integrity of the line.
Unquestionably, the German army also had priority on getting better equipment, (their own), when Stugs/Panzers,Planes were "doled out"..
BTW, if you wanted to see changes made, why not participate more actively. It has served a lot of good folks better to do that, (and see the changes made), than to drift in every "3 years or so", to call people names.............
These people contribute.....................

< Message edited by m10bob -- 9/7/2005 4:57:53 AM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 5:14:09 AM   
ibalkid

 

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Joined: 5/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewC

As usual, anglo-americans talking out of their rear ends about a subject they know very little about or don't care enough to research it properly. The strange thing is that games like Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin and Panzer General 2 represent Romanian troops more accurately and in a better light. The rosiori] (cavalry) are regarded as the best non-German Axis troops in CMBB, whereas in SPWaW, romanian cavalry are easily routed by Soviet partisans. ...



Crying, whining, and moaning is very ugly and unbecoming. Do not let patriotism and emotions sour a fine game. I am of Yugoslavian decent and have never really played a war game/sim where i felt my ancestors were represented accurately. Wether i am correct or not is irrelevant. All that is really important is a great gaming experience with some like minded individuals. If an editor of sorts is added or that game is very modable then its just a big bonus for me, if not oh well i still want too experience great war gaming.

If people feel that they can not be bothered to use the editor for such small changes then you are just a lazy sod. If you do not know how to i am sure the forums are full of helpful people who will either, help you make those changes, or make them for you if it is not too work intensive.

The people who work on this game can not be expected to get every detail right, or to make everyone happy.

It would also help your case if you did not act in such a crass and rude manner. Do you really think people will be receptive to your suggestions when you instantly put them on the defensive with your uber agressive and offensive behaviour? Dont you think your arguments would be better recieved with a mature post detailing your complaints, instead of an insult filled rant like post?

Tweaking is needed, i agree, you just need to chill a tad.

(in reply to AndrewC)
Post #: 21
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 5:23:19 AM   
ibalkid

 

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Joined: 5/24/2005
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quote:

The Romaniam troops on the Eastern Front sucked that is why their morale levels etc are so low because in reality the Romanian army of world war two was quite terrible. Granted that when everything was fine and dandy in the first year (1941) the Romanians managed to do some good, even in early 42 they were ok (Crimea etc) but they really screwed up after that, part of the dabacle at Stalingrad was thanks to the ineptitude of the Romanian and Hungarian forces to the North and South of Stalingrad. So instead of saying that this game, which is damn realistic in terms of troop quality etc, is a crock of ****, perhaps you should reevaluate your country's conduct during the war, after all you did technically switch sides in late 44 did you not?

**** off. I know full well what happened. On the other hand, you and the others keep spewing baseless claims and generalizations. I have posted several quotes from top ranking German officers and I also gave you examples of situations in which Romanian troops proved their fighting spirit. What did you bring into this discussion? Nada. Keep yelling Stalingrad like a 12 year old kid. But since you mentioned Stalingrad, let's talk about it. First, remember that Romanian units could not move even a single inch without German approval. They were there whether they liked it or not. Thus it was the OKH's responsability to look into that their allies are properly equipped and prepared for the task at hand, which was to defend a 438 kilometer long front. There were two romanian armies; the 3rd with 163,703 men (including a few German troops) and the 4th army with 75,580 men. On the opposing side, the R


I do not question the Romanian soldiers fortitude. I do question the leadership, which for a country as small as Romania, could be fatal in a WW. Romania, as the rest of the Baltic nations suffered from lack of Industrialization due to the Turks mucking about the area for 500 years or so. Most Baltic countries were still trying to sort themselves out afterr WWI, and behind the rest of Europe inregards to industrialization and Technologies. Its a fact. I do agree that Romania is not represented in the game well, but i just dont see them or any of the Baltic nation being rated much higher.

Another point to consider. Rommel also claimed that the italian troops were superb. All that he felt they lacked was proper leader ship and logistical support(Which was non exhistant) This does not mean that we should jack up Italy ratings because of what could have been. The game try to make historical representations, not always accurate as you have so tersley pointed out...

Again, relax...

< Message edited by ibalkid -- 9/7/2005 5:25:54 AM >

(in reply to AndrewC)
Post #: 22
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 6:11:30 AM   
Korpraali V


Posts: 659
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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: monty pete

HAHAHA You call the deal you signed with Russia something that saved you?! You just were afraid of being over run by the Russians which suggests to me that a lot of those men who are rightly called heroes(those who fought in the winter war) were betryed/ died out by the time of the Lapland war.


You've got great attitude towards the others...

By the time of Lappland war those who fought in Winter war were sent home (part of the cease-fire treaty) and those who fought in Lappland were conscripts (some had some war experience, but not too many). Still they pushed Germans back to Norway.

I don't know how others call cease-fire treaty with Soviet. It started 4.9.1944 (Soviet ceased to fire 5.9.1944). Soviet offensives were stopped months ago. So there was no critical situation at that time. Soviet interests were more south. So cease-fire didn't "save" Finland. Ofcourse it had to be done but the major thread was stopped by Finnish army.


AndrewC: Agree your point that minor nations morale/experience is too low. However m10bob is right: best way to effect something is to participate.

And Svennemir's politely is needed. It's psychological: If you just yell, everyone think you're an *******, and it effects nothing. Polite way is slow but often leads to something good.



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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 6:20:19 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Examples of bravery can be cited for every nation that fought in the war. Braverly and fortitude are, after all, not copyrighted or patented by any one nation or group of nations. I still believe it would be regrettable to return to the 'Politically friendly' OOB sets that were in previous versions of the game, returning SP to a more or less generic feel.

Then again, Its kind of ironic given that SP has one of the most customizable preferences menus offered that such arugments as contained in this thread get vented. If one feels that their country of choice is being under-represented (again), then one simply only has to turn off the country training setting and choose for themselves the exp level desired. Either that or design one's own scenario.

Just recently played an interesting WinSPBT scn depciting an East German Tank company fighting with T-62's. What made it interesting was that for once (vs. the canned scn/campaign generators) the tankers were of very good quality and combined with good tactics the T-62's fought very well losing not a single MBT while destroying a dozen Leapords. A nice change of pace given that most scn's i play vs this and other Soviet equip types usually involve poorly trained third world participants leading to a typical slaughter.

-Edit

This thread reminded me of some thoughts i'd had a while back. One improvement i would have loved to have seen in a future SP edition would be a better more distinct seperation between setting morale and exp levels in the game. As it stands, setting an exp level either through country training settings or player defined settings are the only fast means to set unit exp/morale ratings with the result that Morale and Exp ratings are usually identical (i.e. you set or CT sets a country's units at 70 as an exp base so Morale auto-defaults to the same)

This prevents such historical representations such as poorly trained but highly motivated troops (ex. exp 40 morale 90) or flipping the coin, high exp units but with poor morale (exp 80 morale 30) I would love it if a new seperate preference setting for "morale" could be added to the game.





< Message edited by Nikademus -- 9/7/2005 6:46:47 AM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 9:50:47 AM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewC

quote:

Actually, the Romanians didn't perform well in 1941, either. They bungled the siege of Odessa and had to have German troops help them out.


More generalizations and oversimplifications of facts... You resumed a whole operation in 15 words. You forgot to mention that Odessa was a heavily fortified city, with 250 kilometers of anti-tank ditch, 45 kilometers of barbed wire, trenches, bunkers and over 40,000 mines. Also, the Russians could rely on on the VVS and ChF to bring in supplies and reinforcements at will. The Romanian Navy was too small to engage the ChF directly. But let me ask you this: Did any other Axis participant manage to capture an important city like Odessa almost all by themselves? The German troops who assisted the 4th Rom. Army in the battle of Odessa consisted less than 5% of the total Axis manpower there.


Funny that you didn't quote the second part of my post...

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 9:54:27 AM   
AndrewC

 

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< Message edited by AndrewC -- 9/28/2005 9:21:50 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 10:08:21 AM   
ranXerox

 

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quote:


HAHAHA You call the deal you signed with Russia something that saved you?! You just were afraid of being over run by the Russians which suggests to me that a lot of those men who are rightly called heroes(those who fought in the winter war) were betryed/ died out by the time of the Lapland war.



Well firstly, almost all of Winter War veterans(all but dead/wounded) fought also in Continuation War. The war against germans was not really a war at all, only an operation to push them to the north and out of Finland. There wasn't much casualties, just some cases of firefighting in couple of northern cities. It was a deal that germans and finns would have few kilometers space between them so that the evacuation of germans could go on without any casualties. But in some cities, germans set fire on buildings and raped women so there was some confrontations.

To your point: Russia was about to break through(sooner of later) our last lines and if there wasn't this peace contract, Finland would have been like Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania - a satellite to communism. Finns were not facists nor communists, just in bad place in-between. And I truly can say finnish soldiers were among the bravest there was, stretching themselfs to the limits and beyond.

The deal with Russia was a good move from leaders of the nation. Without it the history would have been very very different.


< Message edited by ranXerox -- 9/7/2005 10:16:06 AM >

(in reply to monty pete)
Post #: 27
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 10:22:46 AM   
AndrewC

 

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< Message edited by AndrewC -- 9/28/2005 9:22:08 AM >

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Post #: 28
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 10:33:03 AM   
Korpraali V


Posts: 659
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranXerox

To your point: Russia was about to break through(sooner of later) our last lines



Disagree. Read above. Finnish last line was Salpa-line which remained untouchable. Soviet main forces reached breakthrough in Isthmus but were stopped near Viipuri (Vyborg). Same happened in north of lake Laatokka (Ladoga) in U-line. After fierce fighting Soviet assault was repulsed everywhere and they moved their main forces to German front. Finland's situation at the time of cease-fire 4./5.9.1944 was not very bad. In june it was REALLY bad, but not anymore. (Also thanks to our co-fighter's AT-weapons.)

Re-read our history. Lots of books can be found.


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Post #: 29
RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/7/2005 5:21:21 PM   
Sturmpionier


Posts: 99
Joined: 4/29/2002
From: Jennings, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Am I the only one who finds this entire thread hilarious?

I'm not trying to say that there isn't a serious idea to be found here; or that this isn't important, but man I gotta laugh at how this is being presented.

I feel like Porky Pig in that Robin Hood spoof where everything that Daffy (Robin Hood) does winds up looking silly. Daffy is totally into it, but Porky is just laughing until he cries.

I'm starting to get the giggles again, so signing off for now,

Friar Duck

p.s. I think I will have to stop reading this thread before I have a stroke from the hilarity.

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"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash

(in reply to Korpraali V)
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