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Japanese pilot replacement at start pool

 
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Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 4:27:03 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		If one assumes the pool and replacement rates are to small for the Japanese what are reasonable numbers that wont unbalance the battle and be closer to correct?

I havent ever played PBEM, so this is mostly in regards the AI.
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 5:38:16 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Twotribes,

I adjust the rates for my games vs the AI. I usually double the replacement rates. (60 and 30). What that does is put off the degredation of the Japanese air force from march 42 to about July 42.

I've been thinking that it'd be ok (vs the AI) to change them much higher, though. Once they start to run out of trained pilots AND the allies get good planes, the game quickly becomes one sided.

In my next AI game, I'll adjust the numbers to probably 200 and 100. Maybe even higher.

Against a human, I think the rates should both be zero. (but the Japanese player should also get some training daitais to use for pilot training)

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 5:49:23 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Do not assume the replacements rates and starting pool are too low. They may in fact be too high. I have posted on this subject multiple times.
All new Japanese airgroups arrive on map with trained pilots. (Just count the number of pilots contained in groups arrving after Dec 7 1941 and you will see the Japanese player gets a considerable number of "free" trained pilots. Add the 10 per month for 46 months. All these pilots are free. Japan in WWII did not get "free" pilots.
In addition the Japanese player can train on map. Even assuming the 90 day waiting period if Japan disbands a few groups in Dec 41 they will return by April 42 and be trained by July 42. From April 42 to end of war the Japanese player will always have pilots in training this is the "historic" Japanese pilot training program. The number of pilots Japan trains is not predetirmined it is up to the Japanese player.

Both the starting pool and trained pilots added to pool per month are not intended to represent the Japanese pilot training pool they are simply a small part added because it is not practicable to train many types of pilots and then disband the training formations into an active group (floatplanes, recon, transport groups require access to trained replacements. It is acknowledged that players instead use untrained in these groups and put the trained pilots from pool into combat groups. That is also their choice. The 100 pilots in pool at start and the 10 per month trained are not intended to maintain Japanese combat groups.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/7/2005 5:50:46 PM >

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 6:31:19 PM   
Twotribes


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Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I understand that when playing a Human it probably doesnt matter. But the AI is not going to train pilots. Against the AI what would be a good number to make them a little more competative longer?

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 6:45:14 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, The AI trains pilots. It trains entire groups. It also does not transfer groups from restricted HQ so Home aIslands will have trained groups when you get there.

The natural course of war is Japanese pilot degradation. without it the Allies cannot advance. (Try landing on a base within range of 1000 Japanese aircraft when the pilots are still good)
One of the things the Allied player must do is wear out Japanese airforces. (shoot them down faster then they can replace pilots)
So just use your normal monthly loss rates and add 100. (if against AI your shooting down 600 Japanese per month make the pool 700 per month) Japan should then hold you off forever. (If they don't wipe you out)

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 6:48:59 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Mogami, you just keep giving the Allies bright ideas. I think you really are going to the light side.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 8:36:43 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
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Status: offline 		The number of Japanese Naval replacement pilots, don't even cover the non-combat losses. There are also a number of Naval float plane groups that will eat up your replacement pilots to fill out the groups. When playing the against the AI I recomend increasing naval pilot replacement to 50 or 60 per month.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 9:35:16 PM   
Brady


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From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline
cough...

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 9:39:31 PM   
WhoCares


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
...
So just use your normal monthly loss rates and add 100. (if against AI your shooting down 600 Japanese per month make the pool 700 per month) Japan should then hold you off forever. (If they don't wipe you out)

Except that the replacements become more and more crap over the years...

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 9:58:14 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		You're confusing pilot replacements with air unit reinforcements. Naval pilot replacements are always 70 +9 and Army pilots are always 55 +9. It's the air reinforcements that (for the Japanese) decrease in starting experience over time.

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Post #: 10
RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/7/2005 11:06:51 PM   
Nikademus


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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I'm finding that an initial pool of 1000 pilots is working well for the IJN though I recently cut the replacement rate in half down to 25 pilots per month. By mid 42 after moderate attrition the pool was down to 50%. Even after 1.5 month's of reletively light activity, that pool is still @ 50%. With the replacement rate reduction it will probably cut the theoretical pool even closer to threadbare by mid 42 depending on player actions.



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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 12:29:22 AM   
mogami


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Status: offline 		Hi, Just for the record (cough) (and thousandth time)
THE STARTING JAPANESE PILOT POOL AND MONTHLY REPLACEMENTS OF TRAINED PILOTS DOES NOT REPRESENT JAPANESE PILOT TRAINING PROGRAMS.

They are simply "IN ADDITION TO" Japanese pilot training programs.

Japanese pilot training programs are set up and maintained by the Japanese player.

Anyone who uses the pool or replacement rate to maintain the Quality of the Japanese airforces is attempting to "balance" the game. The pilot pool and replacement rate as designed have nothing to do with balance.

When you increase the pool and replacement rate you free the Japanese player from responsabilty. He now does not have to bother with pilot training or worry about loss rates from combat/operations. (It is ok to pamper the AI but any human Japanese player who alters these rates is a butt weasel)

The Japanese player does not need "training groups" (players would simply use them as combat groups) The Japanese player of the game WITP will have 2 to 3 times the number of active groups compared to historic Japan. Historic Japan disbanded groups and never rebuilt them. (They organized a new group. This new group will arrive in WITP with trained pilots whether or not Japan disbands the group historically disbanded so Japan now has 2 groups not 1)
If the Japanese player had "training" groups he would need to disband them into combat groups to use the pilots. (Same as now) So in fact the Japanese player has as many training groups as he wants. And as many combat groups as he wants.
Historic Japanese training programs are easy to maintain in WITP on map.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/8/2005 12:35:32 AM >

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 12:34:37 AM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Give up, Mog.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 12:44:17 AM   
mogami


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Status: offline 		Hi, I wonder what percentage of my nearly 11,000 posts deal with Japanese pilot training. (.......if I had a beer for every post on pilot training how tall would the stack of cases be? or how far would they stretch if laid end to end?)

Here is my opinion. WITP would be more "historically" accurate if the starting pool was zero and no monthly trained pilots were added then it is if a player increases either the starting number or monthly rates.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/8/2005 12:45:49 AM >

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 12:46:34 AM   
Bradley7735


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Just for the record (cough) (and thousandth time)
THE STARTING JAPANESE PILOT POOL AND MONTHLY REPLACEMENTS OF TRAINED PILOTS DOES NOT REPRESENT JAPANESE PILOT TRAINING PROGRAMS.

They are simply "IN ADDITION TO" Japanese pilot training programs.

Japanese pilot training programs are set up and maintained by the Japanese player.

Anyone who uses the pool or replacement rate to maintain the Quality of the Japanese airforces is attempting to "balance" the game. The pilot pool and replacement rate as designed have nothing to do with balance.

When you increase the pool and replacement rate you free the Japanese player from responsabilty. He now does not have to bother with pilot training or worry about loss rates from combat/operations. (It is ok to pamper the AI but any human Japanese player who alters these rates is a butt weasel)

The Japanese player does not need "training groups" (players would simply use them as combat groups) The Japanese player of the game WITP will have 2 to 3 times the number of active groups compared to historic Japan. Historic Japan disbanded groups and never rebuilt them. (They organized a new group. This new group will arrive in WITP with trained pilots whether or not Japan disbands the group historically disbanded so Japan now has 2 groups not 1)
If the Japanese player had "training" groups he would need to disband them into combat groups to use the pilots. (Same as now) So in fact the Japanese player has as many training groups as he wants. And as many combat groups as he wants.
Historic Japanese training programs are easy to maintain in WITP on map.


Hi Mogami,

I agree with you completely. But, Twotribes is asking about AI games. Not PBEM. From my experience, if you play the AI, you'll get a much more competetive game if you increase the Japanese pilot replacements. (I play as allied). I currently have 60 army and 30 navy replacements in my game. I'm just starting to turn the tide and I'm at 6/42. In the future, I think I'll go with 90/45.

I agree that a human player should be able to use on map training.

bc

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 12:48:40 AM   
Bradley7735


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I wonder what percentage of my nearly 11,000 posts deal with Japanese pilot training. (.......if I had a beer for every post on pilot training how tall would the stack of cases be? or how far would they stretch if laid end to end?)

Here is my opinion. WITP would be more "historically" accurate if the starting pool was zero and no monthly trained pilots were added then it is if a player increases either the starting number or monthly rates.


Silly Mogami. He thinks he can stack cases of beer. Any drunk knows that you can't put a full case of beer on an empty case. It just gets worse when you keep going. One full case on two empties falls even faster.



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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 12:48:43 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Well yes the AI does better if you increase the pool and monthy rate but that does not mean the game becomes more accurate. If you want more challange just play a human Japanese. And to get a good idea of the impact play this same Japanese player two games. One with your modified pool/rate and one without. You turn Japan into a super power if they get pilots at the rate the USA does.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 12:49:47 AM   
mogami


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I wonder what percentage of my nearly 11,000 posts deal with Japanese pilot training. (.......if I had a beer for every post on pilot training how tall would the stack of cases be? or how far would they stretch if laid end to end?)

Here is my opinion. WITP would be more "historically" accurate if the starting pool was zero and no monthly trained pilots were added then it is if a player increases either the starting number or monthly rates.


Silly Mogami. He thinks he can stack cases of beer. Any drunk knows that you can't put a full case of beer on an empty case. It just gets worse when you keep going. One full case on two empties falls even faster.




Hi, Silly Bradley thinks Mogami would stack full cases on top of empty. How could I keep them cold or reach a fresh one?

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 1:23:48 AM   
doktorblood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

If one assumes the pool and replacement rates are to small for the Japanese what are reasonable numbers that wont unbalance the battle and be closer to correct?

I havent ever played PBEM, so this is mostly in regards the AI.



I found that increasing the IJN pool to 200 and increasing the IJN rate to 30 and the JAAF to 50 is about right. This forstalls the collapse of IJN for a while and JAAF air for a long time. There was never any "turkey shoot" involving JAAF air.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 1:25:27 AM   
mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I don't mess with either and have never had the IJNAF or IJAAF "collapse" on me.
The Corsair slaughters Japanese fighters of all makes and no matter what pilot experiance. So if you want the Japanese AI to fight better alter the ratings of the Corsair and not the pilot pools.

(I mean changing the pools/replacement rates is treating the symptom and not the disease. Instead remove the root of high Japanese air loss)
The P-38 is about 1-1 in A2A the Corsair is about 15-1 in A2A

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/8/2005 1:30:17 AM >

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 1:32:53 AM   
doktorblood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't mess with either and have never had the IJNAF or IJAAF "collapse" on me.
The Corsair slaughters Japanese fighters of all makes and no matter what pilot experiance. So if you want the Japanese AI to fight better alter the ratings of the Corsair and not the pilot pools.


Well I have to agree that either corsair are over-uberized and/or late war Jap Fighters are over-gimped.


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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 1:39:20 AM   
mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I think what happened is simple.
Pilot ratings are not as important as the aircraft ratings. In the actual war the aircraft themselves were comparable but the pilots over all were not. But it has translated in WITP that the Allied aircraft themselves were so much better that it ends up making pilot ratings of little importance when the aircraft are not identical in ratings.
So actually having better pilots for Japan in 1943 has very little impact. The pool/replacement rates don't matter that much when pilots are only used once.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 3:26:43 AM   
Sonny

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I think what happened is simple.
Pilot ratings are not as important as the aircraft ratings. In the actual war the aircraft themselves were comparable but the pilots over all were not. But it has translated in WITP that the Allied aircraft themselves were so much better that it ends up making pilot ratings of little importance when the aircraft are not identical in ratings.
So actually having better pilots for Japan in 1943 has very little impact. The pool/replacement rates don't matter that much when pilots are only used once.


Yep yep yep. Seems to me that by the time the Corsair (and others) came along the RL Japanes pilot pool was using the scum on the bottom of the pool. This makes the Corsair rated much better than the Japanes planes. In the game when you add the poor pilots in the already poor (compared to a Corsair) planes the problem only increases.

Don't get me wrong the late model Allied fighters were better aircraft - just not as good as their WitP ratings because they were flown by experienced pilots against inexperienced Japanese pilots in (somewhat) inferior planes. So on purely a kill ratio the plane looks unbeatable when in fact it was a combination of plane and pilot making it look good.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 3:33:05 AM   
mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I see this currently in games where I have went into 1943.
Japanese groups with pilots in 80's get 1-1 (or better) against P-38 but are shot down like quail by Corsair. (It does not matter what aircraft the Japanese are flying)
The result is simply that any airfield in range of Corsair becomes untenable for Japan and Japan cannot oppose air control on any airfield with Corsair flying CAP.
24 Corsair on CAP defeats 100+ Japanese fighters on sweep or escort resulting in bombers being slaughtered. (again experianced Japanese pilots flying the newer models)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/8/2005 3:36:25 AM >

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 4:50:15 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		A few comments:

1) In our game Mogami is making I belave observations with regards to the P-38 that are not entirely fair, I beelave over all the P-38's fair a lot better aganst the Japanese tnah his 1-1, a Lot of P-38's have fallen victom in our game to fatigue, I over used them, long range cap covering landings was their undoing, in Sweaps they have faired far beter aganst all types of aircraft ushualy, unless their green, initial units convereted to type were fairly experanced and have for the most part faired well.

2) The F4U is freaking Uber to be shure, two of my units in only a couple weeks in fighting have over 250 kills between them.

3) In 1943 the Japanese Navy was still turning out skilled trainies, their is plently of evidance to suport this, and I have posted this in the past.

.........

What I beleave is the big determiner in WiTP and how it differs from reality, this is very much a game and not a sim...is that Spead is a Huge factor, the F4U is much faster than the planes it faces, so is the P-38 for the most part, also WiTP gives many Allied planes that were very un- manuverable ratings close to many Japanese types, that were notably very manuaverable by comparasion. Why they have done this is beyond me but a lot of How they make stuff hapen in game is, and when asked this is rarely answered, for fear of sparking the mother of all debates no doubt.

So the Alllies get the edge in the sliding scale, they get decent piolets and have comperable manuaver ratings and are faster, and the one advantage the Japanese had is reduced to a non isue...

Another troubling aspect of the game is the whole isue with units like the AVG, I have watched the AVG just hose down far better plane type's while flying piss pore P-40B's, planes like Ki-61's and Ki-44's, Zeros any model are way better preformes as well, yet they are easymeat for these planes....very preplexing, here it would seam the skill and fatigue are factores, but....


I am very much enjoying the Game Mogami and I are playing but when I start another WiTP game it will undoubtly be a mod.

............

Edit:

A handy little tool from another web sight offer's the following comparasions, the graph is fairly accurate though the P-38 is an "L" and differs from the "G" by around 10-30 mph depending on what part of the flight envelpoe yuor comparing(prety close to the F4U-1 realy):






< Message edited by Brady -- 9/8/2005 5:20:23 AM >

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 5:59:27 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		I am not shure what Manuaver means in the WiTP Universe, but as you can see below, it must mean something other than what it means at least to me. The F4U as an example is arguably the worst manuavering plane on the list yet it scores higher than a Zero. It would be helpfull to know what Manuaver means in WiTP and how it factores into the AtoA calaculations.

George-363/2514/36(Max spead/Climb/manuver)

A6M3-336/2700/36

Ki-43 IIa-329/2750/34

Ki-44-376/3832/32

Ki-61- 368/2970/32

Ki-84- 392/2780/35

....................................

F4F-4-320/1950/32

F6F-380/2980/36

F4U-1-415/3120/37

P-40B-352/2860/31

P-40E-362/2083/31

P-38G-391/2353/32

The P-47D has a mnuaver rating of 36, and a B-25C-14, just to show I belave the higher the figure the better the handeling, P-47's were also not nimble planes.















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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 6:01:32 AM   
Oznoyng

 

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Status: offline 		I was a big time Corsair fan as a kid. If memory serves, the first combat with Corsairs left over 10 Corsairs shot down against minimal losses by the IJN. That changed quickly but the first engagement was no cakewalk.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 6:19:05 AM   
Graycompany


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Status: offline 		Tactics were a big part of Allied side, and resulted in the higher kill ratio. this is often overlooked. The Allies got better and better at formation flying and Combat tactics, and as the war progressed, the Japanese pilots tactics were overcome. This coupled with better training of Allies, from '42 on, and sheer numbers were the downfall of the japanese pilots

There is no question the IJN pilots were top line, the IJA were not as good, and were often outclassed by Allied pilots even at the start of the war. Once the Allies got modern planes, the writing was on the wall.

You may argue anything you want, but the facts are the facts, Better planes, better training, faster planes, sheer numbers it is tide all in favor of the Allies, its was true in the real war, as it is in WITP.

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RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 6:35:26 AM   
Brady


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Status: offline 		"You may argue anything you want, but the facts are the facts, Better planes, better training, faster planes, sheer numbers it is tide all in favor of the Allies, its was true in the real war, as it is in WITP. "

Well you can pick it apart, the proof and the game results are in the details. WiTP endevors to acuraterly ( i hope) model the weapons of war, and we the players put them to use, results are as varried as the methods, and should be. The problem is that sometimes the atempt to efect a Historical outcome in the game caused things to be tweaked to the point that they dont realy properly reflect the weapons.

US Planes were Not all better all the time.

Us Piolets were Not all better all the time.

Japanese Army piolets were Not all that bad.

The Allies did have Numbers on their side to be shure.

The problem in WiTP is that the quote is true prety much all the time in game, given equial or Greater numbers in Beter planes the Japanese have been sean to lose grandely on many ocashons in Games I have played when facing Allied air assests. Granted this can be argued, and should be.

The one clearly questionable rating above that efects AtoA is the Manauaver one, if this were more reflective of the planes true nature's we might see results that aproach reality, instead of instances whear Japanese air atacks with a six to one advantage in Numbers are slaughtered by a handfull of F4U's.

...............

Look at the chart below comparing Ki-61's and P40B's and F4U-1's:



The spead diferances between the primary apontes is comperable, yet F4U's rutinealy enjoy HUGE K/D ratios agant Tony's, but Tonys Do Not aganst P-40B's, in fact I have withensed quiet the opeset efect, whear P40B's have hosed Tony units. The Manauver ratings of the F4U is much higher, while the Tony and P-40B are very close. So it would seam the Manuver advantage WiTP fasly gives the F4U is the culpert.

The Manuaver rating would also explane the P-38's lesser preformance compared to the F4U, despit their similar spead rating. Many sources sight the Wildcat, as the Most Manuaverable US Fighter in the War aganst Japan, yet the game does not reflect this.

Manauverabality losly defined hear, should look somthing like this, with the best (Most) manauverable (aeroabatic) plane:

Oscar-38

Zero-37

Huricane-35

Spitfire-32

Wildcat/George-31


Tony-30

Ki-84-30

P-40-28

P-38-28

Hellcat-28

P-51-27

P-47-25

F4U-25








< Message edited by Brady -- 9/8/2005 8:13:00 AM >

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Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

(in reply to Graycompany)
Post #: 29
RE: Japanese pilot replacement at start pool - 9/8/2005 9:38:30 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Just for the record (cough) (and thousandth time)
THE STARTING JAPANESE PILOT POOL AND MONTHLY REPLACEMENTS OF TRAINED PILOTS DOES NOT REPRESENT JAPANESE PILOT TRAINING PROGRAMS.

They are simply "IN ADDITION TO" Japanese pilot training programs.

Japanese pilot training programs are set up and maintained by the Japanese player.

Anyone who uses the pool or replacement rate to maintain the Quality of the Japanese airforces is attempting to "balance" the game. The pilot pool and replacement rate as designed have nothing to do with balance.

When you increase the pool and replacement rate you free the Japanese player from responsabilty. He now does not have to bother with pilot training or worry about loss rates from combat/operations. (It is ok to pamper the AI but any human Japanese player who alters these rates is a butt weasel)

The Japanese player does not need "training groups" (players would simply use them as combat groups) The Japanese player of the game WITP will have 2 to 3 times the number of active groups compared to historic Japan. Historic Japan disbanded groups and never rebuilt them. (They organized a new group. This new group will arrive in WITP with trained pilots whether or not Japan disbands the group historically disbanded so Japan now has 2 groups not 1)
If the Japanese player had "training" groups he would need to disband them into combat groups to use the pilots. (Same as now) So in fact the Japanese player has as many training groups as he wants. And as many combat groups as he wants.
Historic Japanese training programs are easy to maintain in WITP on map.


In PBEMs I play the IJN pilot replacement rate is 30 and you can believe me I have to do training, training, training. Including the IJA I´ve got 500 + planes in China only doing training bombing raids since I started in 5/42 and we are now nearly in 10/42. Losses are not so high because my Allied opponent has a very defensive stratetgy (which is very good). I´ve got about 1500 losses of planes but 800+ are op losses which mostly are from my training.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/8/2005 9:48:12 AM >

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 30
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