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Anyone but me... - 8/30/2005 9:33:57 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		manage the game? Or do most folks just crank out the stats?

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
Post #: 1
RE: Anyone but me... - 8/30/2005 10:20:56 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		You're not alone. I manage each game of my human-controlled team.

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 2
RE: Anyone but me... - 8/30/2005 10:33:45 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Just wondering because no one seems to complain about the horrible base running and lack of realistic handling of errors.

A lot of work has gone into this game and it is ashame that some of the most basic things in the game of baseball itself are screwed up.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 3
RE: Anyone but me... - 8/30/2005 11:57:51 PM   
donkuchi19


Posts: 1062
Joined: 3/14/2004
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		I do all three. I manage one league. I have another league where I sim. I have a third league (ABF) that is multiplayer. I do notice some errors in the managed game aspect that I posted on the old boards. The stolen base error with the count being number one. I still find that it is the most enjoyable sim out there for managing a game.

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 4
RE: Anyone but me... - 8/31/2005 12:30:12 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Well I have not played any of the others (except APBA long time ago) but it really ruins a game when there are two out and you pinch run with a 53 speed guy and there is a fly ball to deep right field and the fielder drops it and you end up with runners on first and second when you should have scored a run and had a runner on second.

I just downloaded it and have only managed 60 or so games but I have already twice seen 5-6-3 double plays! How many you see of those in the majors? Seen wild pitches but no passed balls (though I may have missed them I doubt it). Don't ever remember seeing a batter hit by a pitch either.

And even though it is minor, the special plays say something like "fielder steals a hit from the batter" (or something to that effect) but the "fly ball turns into a homerun" really irks me. How did it turn into a homerun? Did the outfielder have it hit off his glove and go over the fence? Did the wind carry it over the fence? Minor, as I said but it ruins the atmosphere of the game.

Another minor one - who makes the catch when there is a flyout to left center or right center? With all the names on the screen it should be easy to put a name in that play result as well as replacing SS or 3B etc with a name.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to donkuchi19)
Post #: 5
RE: Anyone but me... - 8/31/2005 2:54:21 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I'm pretty much in the same boat. I'm currently participating, in one form or another, in five associations: The first is a fictional league where I manage each and every game. The second is also a fictional league but I sim games in weekly increments. The third is a real-player sandbox-mode league I put together where I'm competing with the last 10 winners of the World Series ('95 Atlanta through '04 Boston); these games are simmed in weekly chunks. The fourth and fifth associations I am playing are both multiplayer; one is Shaun's PureSim association test game and the other is Dandric's 1956-era, real-player MP association.

I have a few quirks in regards to managed games, but as donkuchi, I've posted commentary about them before. I'd feel like a stubborn pain were I to repeat them in detail so I'll just summarize my two cents. The wild pitch counts on steals, having one of your hitters "thrown out on the extra base attempt" (which you had no say on whether he should try it or not), being able to swap out the starting pitcher at the lineup card stage, the inability to see fatigue levels unless you initiate a change in the lineup card, "real-time" updated ERAs for the pitchers- just as the batter's AVG are updated with each at-bat, the lack of any note or comment when you send in a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter (it doesn't even say it on the Game Summary) and the lack of a Steal {A]ll command where you can have all the runners going on the next pitch. I've seen wild pitches, but no hit batters or passed balls.

Two things have been getting to me lately; one is the AI's base running strategy. If I were to hit a ground ball to the third baseman and I had a runner on 2nd, I would NOT have him advance to third. Yet, the opponent does, and often makes it there. Too many times have I seen balls lined to the same base where a runner is sent, and almost always makes it safely. The other frustrating thing is those hits that 'get by the pitcher'. The animation line doesn't leave the infield, so it's not a ball that's "hit up the middle". How often is a ball hit "out of reach of the pitcher"? I could be missing something obvious, and if I am, please point it out.

However, please do not take this as an overall dislike or disappointment in PureSim. I absolutely love this game to the point that I'm finding myself playing this more than MVP 2005. Even with these minor annoyances, the positive components and entertaining features of this Spawn of Shaun so ridiculously outweigh these inconveniences that I feel guilty when I type these things out and click on 'Post Reply'. I only do it because I know that Shaun appreciates the feedback, even when he (hopefully) knows that we don't expect him to make this to each and every person's liking and taste. Feedback is a suggestion, it's not an order or command.

Keep it up Shaun, I love this work of baseball art.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 6
RE: Anyone but me... - 8/31/2005 4:15:00 AM   
puresimmer

 

Posts: 2299
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		Actually I have thrived upon feedback since day 1! Take a look at readme.html in your puresim 2005\html folder. That file shows all the changes I have made since just December. I log every suggestion. Keem them coming.

The one thing I do ask is that you all be as specific as possible in your requests, that way I can log them and knock em out.

Above all I hope you all agree PureSim 2005 is certainly a good value.

_____________________________

Developer, PureSim Baseball

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 7
RE: Anyone but me... - 8/31/2005 4:25:53 PM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		That certainly helps wipe away some of the rant-inspired guilt I manage to accumulate, I must say.

The only thing that I find to be an issue when sharing feedback, comments, suggestions or complaints, is that I (personally) tend to spread my suggestions around- as in, on many different posts and threads. I certainly don't expect personalized attention and I don't expect to receive private emails from Shaun addressing and commenting on each and every suggestion I make. However, I just don't know if what I'm saying (since I'm saying it often and in many places) is at least being 'read' or 'acknowledged'. Whether you agree with my suggestion or disagree with it is irrelevant; you're free to do as you wish, since when it all boils down, this is your game.

However, the part where I "feel like a stubborn pain [in the a$$]" is because, not knowing if you caught some little comment in some obscure post some several threads ago, I find myself reposting suggestions. This, to me, makes me sound like a whiney brat. This, to me, makes it sound like I don't like PSB2005, which is one reason I always try to end my comment-filled posts on a good note.

So, how can I share my suggestions, etc. in a way that they'll at least be acknowledged (which is all that I ask, really) without sounding like I'm desperately looking for the slightest little tiny fault as some sort of bizarre fun-crushing treat?



_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to puresimmer)
Post #: 8
RE: Anyone but me... - 8/31/2005 5:26:33 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

The other frustrating thing is those hits that 'get by the pitcher'. The animation line doesn't leave the infield, so it's not a ball that's "hit up the middle". How often is a ball hit "out of reach of the pitcher"? I could be missing something obvious, and if I am, please point it out.



I can understand a high bouncer getting past the pitcher or the pitcher flagging the ball down and not getting to it in time to throw the runner out but I was really surprised when I saw a DOUBLE out of reach of the pitcher! I've only seen one of those and I can use my imagination to rationalize it so it is not a big deal - just a surprise.

My complaint/observation is that there is a lot of neat stuff but why worry about players retiring in the middle of a season and some such esoteric (though nice) stuff when no infielder in my games has overthrown first base? Get the basics of the game of baseball correct and build from there.





_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 9
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/1/2005 11:58:34 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Found another weird happening last night:

Runners on first and third, one out, infield playing IN.
Grounded to first base - the runner on third beats the throw home - runner on first moves to second.

You would expect to see runners on first and second with one out. Nope. Runner on second and one out! What happened to the batter?

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 10
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/1/2005 8:52:53 PM   
Amaroq

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline 		Hmm, I can imagine that play in one of three ways.

Hard grounder to a good-fielding first-baseman. He takes the moment to step on first, retiring the batter, and then fires home; the act of stepping on first delayed him just enough to allow the runner from third to score.

Hard grounder to the first-baseman. He throws home, but the runner from third slides in under the tag. The slow-running batter doesn't get down the line quickly enough, and the catcher alertly turns and throws him out to the second baseman covering first.

Hard grounder to a poor-throwing first-baseman. His throw is clearly off line, forcing the catcher to take it from a standing position several feet up the third base line. Knowing he has no chance on the runner, the catcher alertly guns it to first to get even a fast-moving batter.

But then, I've read too many descriptions of "odd plays" over at retrosheet... ... which if you haven't seen, and you're a baseball sim fan, will make any baseball sim's outcome feel like a routine play: Retrosheet.org: Strange and Unusual Plays

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 11
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/1/2005 9:04:45 PM   
HoschMosch

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Then it should be 2 Outs. So I would imagine another play:

Everyone watched the close play at homeplate and Aliens took away the batter.

HoschMosch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

Hmm, I can imagine that play in one of three ways.

Hard grounder to a good-fielding first-baseman. He takes the moment to step on first, retiring the batter, and then fires home; the act of stepping on first delayed him just enough to allow the runner from third to score.

Hard grounder to the first-baseman. He throws home, but the runner from third slides in under the tag. The slow-running batter doesn't get down the line quickly enough, and the catcher alertly turns and throws him out to the second baseman covering first.

Hard grounder to a poor-throwing first-baseman. His throw is clearly off line, forcing the catcher to take it from a standing position several feet up the third base line. Knowing he has no chance on the runner, the catcher alertly guns it to first to get even a fast-moving batter.

But then, I've read too many descriptions of "odd plays" over at retrosheet... ... which if you haven't seen, and you're a baseball sim fan, will make any baseball sim's outcome feel like a routine play: Retrosheet.org: Strange and Unusual Plays



_____________________________

My Baseball Manager Project Page

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 12
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/2/2005 4:35:50 AM   
Amaroq

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline 		Oh! Yeah, that would be a bug. :)

How's this - it was a close play at home, which the batter just stood and watched. Realizing that he was dead to rights if he tried to run it out, he calmly walked back to the dugout. No umpire called him out, and the other team's pitcher stepped on the rubber to throw the next pitch - and the inning continued with the runner on second and still one out?

(in reply to HoschMosch)
Post #: 13
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/2/2005 9:33:56 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

Oh! Yeah, that would be a bug. :)

How's this - it was a close play at home, which the batter just stood and watched. Realizing that he was dead to rights if he tried to run it out, he calmly walked back to the dugout. No umpire called him out, and the other team's pitcher stepped on the rubber to throw the next pitch - and the inning continued with the runner on second and still one out?


Thats probably it.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 14
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/3/2005 4:20:53 PM   
puresimmer

 

Posts: 2299
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Found another weird happening last night:

Runners on first and third, one out, infield playing IN.
Grounded to first base - the runner on third beats the throw home - runner on first moves to second


Found it and fixed it, thanks for the report! It was a tough one because in that situation the bug would only happen 30% of the time :)

Anyway it'll be fixed in the release.

_____________________________

Developer, PureSim Baseball

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 15
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/3/2005 8:36:04 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer

quote:

Found another weird happening last night:

Runners on first and third, one out, infield playing IN.
Grounded to first base - the runner on third beats the throw home - runner on first moves to second


Found it and fixed it, thanks for the report! It was a tough one because in that situation the bug would only happen 30% of the time :)

Anyway it'll be fixed in the release.


Good work! Glad you found it. Those bugs which don't happen consistantly are the hardest to find.

Here is one which does not affect play - foul out down the right line (the ball path goes to the bend in the stands where the foul line meets the warning track) put out SS! It must have been a really high pop or extremely fast shortstop!

Another type which leaves me stretching my imagination is the - double in the hole and double to shallow center.

BTW - do any runners advance on foul outs? I have had one or two foul outs deep down the lines and the runners have never been offered the opportunity to advance.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to puresimmer)
Post #: 16
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/3/2005 8:51:29 PM   
El_Homo

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny
Here is one which does not affect play - foul out down the right line (the ball path goes to the bend in the stands where the foul line meets the warning track) put out SS! It must have been a really high pop or extremely fast shortstop!

Another type which leaves me stretching my imagination is the - double in the hole and double to shallow center.


Is it possible that the type of BIP (1B, 2B, 3B or Out) is determined before the location of the ball and the defender is determined?

El_Homo

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 17
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/3/2005 9:26:19 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: El_Homo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny
Here is one which does not affect play - foul out down the right line (the ball path goes to the bend in the stands where the foul line meets the warning track) put out SS! It must have been a really high pop or extremely fast shortstop!

Another type which leaves me stretching my imagination is the - double in the hole and double to shallow center.


Is it possible that the type of BIP (1B, 2B, 3B or Out) is determined before the location of the ball and the defender is determined?

El_Homo



For the most part they are reasonable. Just a few of these strange ones.



_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to El_Homo)
Post #: 18
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/3/2005 9:33:05 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Found another one.

First and third no outs infield IN. The hit-and-run is on. Grounded to the third baseman who throws the runner out at the plate. You would expect runners on first and second - possibly first and third. Well, it turned out that indeed there were runners at first and third - the same ones which were there when the play started! And the batter is nowhere to be seen. It appears this may be similar to the one I mentioned before (which will be fixed in the next release). The difference is that the out was recorded in this one and the runner who was out did not appear on the same base as happened in this case.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 19
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/3/2005 10:44:07 PM   
puresimmer

 

Posts: 2299
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Found another one.

First and third no outs infield IN. The hit-and-run is on. Grounded to the third baseman who throws the runner out at the plate. You would expect runners on first and second - possibly first and third. Well, it turned out that indeed there were runners at first and third - the same ones which were there when the play started! And the batter is nowhere to be seen. It appears this may be similar to the one I mentioned before (which will be fixed in the next release). The difference is that the out was recorded in this one and the runner who was out did not appear on the same base as happened in this case.


Good news, this is essentially in the same code as the first one and thus was fixed as well.

_____________________________

Developer, PureSim Baseball

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 20
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/4/2005 12:05:38 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		Good. Thought it might have been fixed but thought I would mention it because there were a few dissiliar things about it.

Hurry up with the game I only got 14 plays left on the trial version!


EDIT: P.S. - that runner who remained on third scored on the next play and ruined my pitcher's shutout.

< Message edited by Sonny -- 9/4/2005 12:41:55 AM >

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to puresimmer)
Post #: 21
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/4/2005 11:48:40 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		OK, you can forget about the advancement on a foul out - it just happened in my game. So that answers that question.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 22
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/7/2005 11:07:30 PM   
Amaroq

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline 		The question on foul outs is, 'would a veteran outfielder ever opt NOT to make the catch, to prevent the sacrifice?'

For example, I have seen the following in real life:
Ninth inning. One-run game. One out. Runner on third.
Deep fly ball down the right field line but curling foul.
Right fielder jogs over, settles under it, but then lets it drop foul.

Logic was, he figured it was better not to make the catch than to let the runner from third score on a sacrifice fly.

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 23
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/8/2005 12:19:54 AM   
Frozen Stiffer


Posts: 1059
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well, the INFIELD FLY rule was developed to stop just that, but I would safely assume (from the name alone) that it doesn't apply to the outfield. Personally, I've never seen that happen, but I likewise wouldn't dismiss that it ever has.

I've seen too many hidden ball tricks and a myriad of other little loopholes and witty calls, it seems that baseball is just full of this stuff! Don't you just love it?

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 24
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/8/2005 12:35:03 AM   
Amaroq

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline 		Yes, I do love it - that's why I'd love to see a really detailed 'baseball simulation' which offered vanishingly-small chances of those extremely unlikely plays!

To your first point, the infield fly rule was developed for a different reason: to stop double plays generated as follows. With zero or one outs, there is a runner on first and a runner on second, there is a towering pop fly in the infield.

If the runners wait on their repsective bags, the infielder lets the ball drop, then starts a third-base to second-base double play, as the batter reaching first forces the runners to advance.

If the runners advance halfway, to reasonably prevent that, the infielder catches the ball, and throws to the closest bag to retire the runner before he can get back safely.

This is why the 'infield fly' rule is not invoked if either first or second base is open, or if there are two outs.

...

The 'don't catch the fly ball' trick is purely about realizing that the defense's goal at the moment is preventing the run from third, NOT retiring the batter - very similar to the 'don't throw to second' to prevent the first-third double-steal situation.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)
Post #: 25
RE: Anyone but me... - 9/13/2005 2:41:31 AM   
roo23

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		How about a Manny Ramirez situation where the LF catches the ball in foul territory with less than 2 outs and flips it to a fan in the first row?

Ok I know other guys have done this, it's just too easy to pick on Manny...

- Chris

(in reply to Amaroq)
Post #: 26
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