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Online games save problem - 9/21/2005 11:56:59 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Shrewsbury UK
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Playing an opponent online at the moment, and we're having problems whenever we hook up again to continue a previously started game. Messages come up, more often than not, that the save file differs on our computers. This happens whether we use the autosave, or another save that we've both saved into (using the same slot) simultaneously in the same.

Am I missing something? At the moment, before restarting each game, one of us has to send the other the relevant save file to guarantee compatibility.

Note: We're both using 8.4.

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RE: Online games save problem - 9/22/2005 12:57:32 AM   
soldier

 

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I think thats how it works. if an opponent drops offline during a game you have to save, zip and send the files to him. I think the current turn then gets played from the end of player ones shot. A turn based issue for saving live games maybe but not hard to rectify.

(in reply to Swamprat)
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RE: Online games save problem - 9/22/2005 12:04:42 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Shrewsbury UK
Status: offline
Mmmm, it's just that it happens when the game is shut down legit as well. And even manually saving at the same time and in the same slot before we shut down fails to rectify the issue.

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RE: Online games save problem - 9/22/2005 10:24:20 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Shrewsbury UK
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No one else has the same problem? There are people who play online here, right?

Or should I turn it round and put it another way - Are there people who play online who routinely send saves to their opponents before a game, meaning that what i describe is not actually a problem at all?

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Post #: 4
RE: Online games save problem - 9/23/2005 10:41:15 PM   
IBTyrone


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From: Kentucky, USA
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Hi Swamprat.

To answer your question about those that play online games around here--there are a few, but I don't think there are many of them. If I were to summarize for you how most people play the game--Most folks play solitaire, a sizeable amount play PBEM, and then a few play online. Technically, playing online over the Internet can be more involved with firewalls and all, so it isn't quite as simple as playing alone, or emailing someone a turn. Sorry I'm not more help--just explaining why you hear crickets chirping.

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Post #: 5
RE: Online games save problem - 9/23/2005 10:58:00 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Shrewsbury UK
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Thanks Tyrone. It's just after seeing a few posts recently about the woes of cheaters in PBEM, I'd assumed that more players were getting into online play. Clearly I was mistaken.

I have to admit that my first attempts at online play with a regular opponent were incredibly frustrating. It took several evenings just to get a game ticking along without crashing or freezing. We nearly gave up. But we worked it out in the end (mostly to do with firewalls, as you say) and it's been worth it. It's a very different animal to PBEM, but very rewarding too. We've even created a system for playing a campaign against each other. The saves business is the only remaining niggle and I was hoping to clear that up. Oh well, it's not the end of the world.



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Post #: 6
RE: Online games save problem - 9/23/2005 11:59:44 PM   
IBTyrone


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No problem, Swamprat.

Glad to know you've worked out a system for playing campaigns online. Would it be too much trouble to ask you to post the steps you go through to do it--the exchange of files and such? Although I don't play online, I might consider giving it a shot in the future.

As far as the PBEM thing, yeah you are right, there are cheaters out there. You have to play with someone you trust, or someone that comes recommended or has a history on the forums. Most guys who are regulars on the forums wouldn't cheat, I would suspect. VikingNo2 is very reputable, but it's tough to get a game in with him cause he has so many going at once. Still, if you want to try PBEM, and don't mind getting your head pounded in legitimately, he's a good one to start with. I've seen him even offer to walk newbies through PBEM strategy the first fight through.

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Post #: 7
RE: Online games save problem - 9/24/2005 12:44:13 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
Joined: 8/30/2005
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I'm actually playing a PBEM right now, so I've got one of each on the go, both on the Russian Front right now.

Campaigns - It's a system I've devised to play something resembling a campaign online. The campaign we're doing at the moment is very much a test bed, to see what problems arise, but we're on the second battle now. It's possible to do on PBEM as well I think, though the games should not be password protected. You need to playing an opponent you trust.

Basically, first pick a map that will support more than one battle played on it; a dense city map or a large custom map for instance - we're using the map of Kharkov from the map files at the moment.

Set up a standard Meeting Engagement in Battle - Rig the points so that neither side has enough to easily win domination of the whole battlefield in one battle: we used 2000 pts aside, as if the advance forces of two armies had just clashed.

Fight the battle as normal. We set ours for 15 turns; again to avoid complete resolution of the campaign in one battle.

At the end of the battle, each side totals up their losses in points, as listed on final scoreboard (normal minor victory, draw etc is ignored). Players then add points for victory hex's taken (points for damage inflicted are ignored). Then pre-agreed reinforcement points are added.

Formula works as follows: Starting Points - Losses + Victory points + reinforcement pts = Starting Points for next battle.

Obviously Victory hex points and reinforcement points are agreed beforehand and can vary per campaign. So far we've found that having the Victory Hexes too high (we had 250 pts) unbalances the next game too heavily in favour of the previous victor. 100pts may work better. We used 1000pts for reinforcements. Basically the higher the points the quicker either army will grow and the quicker the campaign will be - which may be a good thing to avoid 'campaign fatigue'. I wouldn't mind experimenting actually with using no Victory Hexes at all, freeing up the strategy of both commanders.

Right; both players now have their purchase points for the next battle. Now you take the Save files and copy them, moving them into the Scenario Folder. Rename the Saves as Scenarios.
Go into the game Editor, bring up the Scenario and alter the deployment lines to reflect ground taken or lost. Redistribute the Victory hexes. Again, prior agreement and trust is vital. Scenario can be posted back and forth for both players to edit. When both are happy, save the map (not scenario), complete with damage from previous battle. Post map so both players have same map.

Now start a battle as normal, using new points and the altered map (custom: as designed).
Fight the battle. Do it all again until one side or the other reaches pre-arranged victory condition, like taking the whole map for instance.

The key to the whole thing is the taking of the old Save to create the map for the next game and redraw the front lines. Values of hexes and reinforcements can be tailored to what kind of campaign you want.

Obviously units cannot gain experience points, and other units may end up replaced by different units altogether. The only 'campaign' bit of it is the gradual advance or retreat across the map. It does give a whole new feel to battles though, and you end up fighting for strategic areas to use as jump off points for the next battle, regardless of whether it has Victory hexes on it or not. Victory hexes do still dictate most of the strategy though, which is why I'd like to try without them.

At the moment I've been forced back in the city and I'm struggling to hold my ground whilst angling to recapture some vital ground.

I'm working on a very large Arnhem, Nijmegan, Eindhoven map and would like to try a Market Garden Campaign, with Allied points outnumbering German points to start with, but with German reinforcement points being more than the allies, creating a race against time as the Allies try to capture the bridges before the Germans gain the strength to stop them, while the Germans fight to buy time. Still working out possible issues regarding the initial parachute drops and reinforcements.

It takes longer to explain than to do, believe me. Sorting out the points and map for the second battle took just fifteen minutes in practice. I'll post more once we finish this campaign, seeing if there are any issues that could be rectified in future.

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Post #: 8
RE: Online games save problem - 9/24/2005 3:36:32 PM   
IBTyrone


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Wow!

Thanks for the explanation, Swamprat. I'm clearer now as to what you are doing. One more question, though. In your explanation, you were talking about the online game, correct? You set up the scenario files using the same large map for each battle and then email them to one another before starting each battle and then play it out in real time online. After that battle, you redraw the start lines and rework the forces and begin again. Do I have it right? It seems like you could also do the same thing with a PBEM setup, but it wouldn't unfold as quickly due to mailing the turn back and forth.

I like the idea. Very creative. If you designed a large enough map as in the case of Market Garden, it could/would have to be huge for the campaign. Have you found that the large maps cause you any problems in the online game? I would think moving that much information back and forth would cause the game to get out of sync quickly.

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Post #: 9
RE: Online games save problem - 9/24/2005 8:42:47 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
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From: Shrewsbury UK
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I think you've explained it quicker than I did. The very first battle just needs to be set up in the Battle generator, like any other online or PBEM battle. After that it's just a matter of converting the save file into a scenario file in order to extract the map. In fact, you don't need to make a campaign for this. After a particularly good battle that both players enjoyed, you could do the same procedure to get a bit more mileage out of the battle if it seems particularly interesting.

I see no reason why it can't be done with PBEM. It can't be a password protected game though, 'cos password protected files can't be tampered with.

Don't know if large maps cause problems in online games; so far we've only used normal maps. Large armies may cause problems however, especially for timed moves. My opponent prefers timed moves and this may not be a good idea. We get sync problems anyway even with small battles - more to do with servers than the game I think

The Market-Garden idea is actually quite simple. Historically it was a long advance on a narrow front with limited manouevering space. I was planning to give (not playtested this yet) the Germans 2000pts and the allies 7000pts (to cover cost of gliders etc) in first battle. The German defences are at the bottom of the map, and the objectives plus the route of advance are the bridges. The Germans don't have much to handle, so it's not too unwieldy, and the Allies are bottled up and unable to use all their force to advance through the front lines, and the paras just have to advance or hold with only a limited range of weapons. So although it seems like an ambitious scope, the limitations are already built in to avoid it becoming just too complicated.

That said, I'm still thinking the Market-Garden idea through. It's just that it's something I've always wanted to do. I imagine a similar concept for the Ardennes could be done, with Germans beginning with a points advantage, then the advantage swinging the other way as the American defence hardens. Imagine holding Bastogne in the teeth of the flood, then subsequent games of trying to push Patton's column up to relieve it while still struggling to make sure you've still got something to relieve. Oh dear, I'm salivating.
There's probably loads more you could do with the idea. If you try it or get any more ideas I'll be happy to hear them.

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Post #: 10
RE: Online games save problem - 9/25/2005 4:30:19 AM   
IBTyrone


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From: Kentucky, USA
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Good to know you are just using the battle generator. I guess that makes sense if you are multiple battles on one map. I was wondering how you were keeping it fair if you were designing the battles and knew unit placement before the battle. That would be an issue if you designed a Market Garden battle map, unless you rely on the computer to do auto unit placement for you but I've always found that to be less than reliable.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who has had sync problems with the online version of the game and that's was in the same room! The default three minute time limit is rough if you have a force of any size and almost impossible if you have arty. I don't know if you could three minute turns with 7000 points, could you?

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RE: Online games save problem - 9/25/2005 7:45:31 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Shrewsbury UK
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All battles, including the Market Garden (if it ever gets played) will start on the Battle Generator. I trust my opponent, but not that much!

We've altered the timer to ten minutes. My opponent wanted five, I wanted fifteen (or junking completely, I hate it); so we compromised.

I don't like time limits on my thinking. I prefer to mull over my options personally, which is why I take ages to deploy. Several times the server's crashed before I've finished.

We're shooting ourselves in the foot in this campaign at the moment. I began with 2000pts and he began with 3000. In this battle I have 3600 and he has 6500. Another battle and the armies could become seriously unwieldy. Like I said, this campaign is very much a test bed. Changes need to be made for the next one.

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Post #: 12
RE: Online games save problem - 9/25/2005 9:40:44 PM   
IBTyrone


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10 minute turns? How long does a battle take? Do you finish it in one sitting or save and finish over multiple sittings?

I resonate with you on the rushed decisions regarding the time limits. I like to explore all my options before committing. Alas, if only the real world operated the same way.

As you fine tune the parameters for the online game, keep us posted, Swamprat. I would be very interested in your posting as to what works best. What you are doing is a variation on the game that I had never heard of until now and some other folks besides myself might find useful.

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RE: Online games save problem - 9/25/2005 11:21:41 PM   
Swamprat


Posts: 129
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From: Shrewsbury UK
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We don't always take the full ten minutes, but as the forces get bigger, it'll be tough not to. We don't finish a battle in one sitting. A couple of hours play, two to three nights a week. This is why I made my earlier request about advice on saves. Still, it is a bit quicker than a PBEM, though I do prefer the more leisurely chesslike play of PBEM. It's still best to have one of each.

I'll keep you posted on developments. It's early days yet. I wonder if the reason it's not been heard of is because it's actually a cr@p idea. We shall see. But SPWAW is so excellent purely because of what you can do with it.

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RE: Online games save problem - 9/26/2005 2:56:37 AM   
IBTyrone


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From: Kentucky, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamprat

We don't always take the full ten minutes, but as the forces get bigger, it'll be tough not to. We don't finish a battle in one sitting. A couple of hours play, two to three nights a week. This is why I made my earlier request about advice on saves. Still, it is a bit quicker than a PBEM, though I do prefer the more leisurely chesslike play of PBEM. It's still best to have one of each.


I've stayed away from PBEM play just because it is so time intensive. That's why your "blended" online PBEM method caught my attention. It's more efficient than a PBEM and I like the more rapid progress...but I like pondering my moves too.

quote:


I'll keep you posted on developments. It's early days yet. I wonder if the reason it's not been heard of is because it's actually a cr@p idea. We shall see. But SPWAW is so excellent purely because of what you can do with it.


Nah, it's definitely not crap. I think people see playing SPWAW online and tune it out, just because it is not easy to set up and somewhat more "glitchy" than PBEM. I like what you've done. It's the best of both worlds--if you can get past the firewall issues. If nothing else, you've paved the way for someone else to find your post and give it a try in the future.

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