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The series "Over -There" - 9/22/2005 2:15:41 AM

Alby

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Just wondering about everyones opinions on this show...
I started out liking it, but now it seems to becoming more Anti American...maybe its just me>

Maybe anti war is a better description...

< Message edited by Alby -- 9/22/2005 4:17:37 AM >

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/22/2005 3:48:28 AM

Major Destruction

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What do ou mean by anti-American?

Is the show starting to show that the basic tenets of Americanism; freedom, the Constitution and its amendments and all that is bad or wrong?

Or is it portraying the military as abusing those tenets?

(in reply to Alby)

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/22/2005 4:14:50 AM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

What do ou mean by anti-American?

Is the show starting to show that the basic tenets of Americanism; freedom, the Constitution and its amendments and all that is bad or wrong?

Or is it portraying the military as abusing those tenets?

Well last episode had the asshole american contractor......thought that one kinda sucked.
like I said...maybe its just me...I guess I still like parts of it...does seem to be turning the American Soldiers into something I dont believe they are tho.
too much damn sex too!! Typical Hollywood.

Just trying to get others comments on the show.

< Message edited by Alby -- 9/22/2005 6:04:56 AM >

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/22/2005 4:40:31 AM

Major Destruction

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Immoral or criminal behaviour is not simply anti-American. Such behaviour is not acceptable in any just society. But we all know that unacceptable behaviour exists in society, even a military society. Perhaps the program is attempting to depict a human side of events?

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/22/2005 5:24:13 AM

BruceAZ

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The thing that struct me odd was the tactics for clearing a built-up area has not changed since I did this at Hue.

A friend who served in Vietnam with me remarked "how clean they were." I nearly had a stroke laughing so hard!

I think it is OK and try not to let real life events ruin what I am watching - it's just a show from Hollywood. Right or wrong war, we owe it to them to support them no matter what happens. Let's just pray they will be home soon.

Recon
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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/22/2005 7:15:48 AM

Dragoon 45

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I have seen one episode and laughed so hard I just about fell out of my chair. Just over a year has passed since I came back from the sand box and retired as an E-8, and I must say the show needs a complete change in technical advisors. It was so far from reality I couldn't help but laugh my tail end off. The tactical blunders and mistakes I saw in just one show convinced me that it was pure junk so I haven't watched it again. The orginal COMBAT TV series was probably Hollywood's only serious attempt at getting it right for TV, and even that show had some problems. In "Over There" their technique for clearing rooms is very sloppy and doesn't really follow current training and doctrine. They bunch up when under fire and I for the life of me can't figure out why a female soldier is with a squad operating independently. Female Soldiers while I was there were not assigned to accompany squad size patrols except in very exceptional circumstances and then it was a lot larger operation than just one squad out doing security patrols. I just find the show so far removed from reality that I refuse to waste my time on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

Just wondering about everyones opinions on this show...
I started out liking it, but now it seems to becoming more Anti American...maybe its just me>

Maybe anti war is a better description...

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/22/2005 9:16:19 AM

Twotribes

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Well, remember Hollywood is predominantly "anti-war" They ( through all job descriptions) are heavily of one political persuasion.

This can and will affect who gets hired for advisors and what writers are hired and their "take" on things. Even if the show hires good competent advisors if the producers and writers dont like what they are told or it doesnt fit their view or opinion or desire for story line or story content/message ( no matter what political persuasion in this case) guess who wins that disagreement?

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/22/2005 6:43:37 PM

Poopyhead

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Dragoon 45 says it for me. If "Over There" was a show about the NFL, then all the players would be carrying football bats.

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/23/2005 7:38:17 AM

John Galt

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There are some technical problems with it, but like every Bochco TV production, it is very good, entertaining and that's all it is. It's not the History Channel.

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/23/2005 8:13:46 PM

Poopyhead

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True.
If he did a propoganda show about experiences of Jews in Israel, except that no one in the show was even remotely Jewish, then detractors might point to that as a technical problem.
Dude, the show blows.

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/24/2005 8:47:46 AM

Wild Bill

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Its Hollywood, fact mixed with fiction. Like Bruce, I enjoy it as what it is, a theatrical presentation that has moments of realism mixed with the appeal to the senses, all minoritys, the feminine vote, the anti-war folks, blood thirsty people who like gore and death, heavy sentimentalism for folks like me (old age does make you not only senile but sentimental), moments of tenderness, and a host of other efforts to please everybody. That last point, pleasing everybody is a task way out of reach of TV, Movies and even ME!

.

I know, I know, hard to believe, but even me

WB

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/24/2005 8:49:21 AM

Wild Bill

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So, Recon, you were at Hue! Well, God bless you my friend. That is one place I would never have wanted to be. Gung Ho, Leatherneck!

WB

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/24/2005 7:28:57 PM

Wild Bill

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I've been continuing to think about HUE. I've done some more reading about it. Manila, Hue, Fallujah, and the Marines!...intense urban fighting for men who have been trained for a different kind of warfare. The Marines have proved themselves "Always Ready!"

Not as familiar with this bloody house to house fighting, they still, along with comrades in the US Army did the job! That's impressive

WB

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/26/2005 10:31:58 PM

Poopyhead

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It's Hollywood, propoganda mixed with fiction. Art can be a tool for presenting a one-sided argument without an opportunity for rebuttal, because it's "only drama". The military I retired from two years ago was a group of professionals who volunteered for service, not another lost generation in a war that nobody wants. A soldier in my unit went to a "Bright Star" operation while his own mother was MIA (she had dropped a friend off at the WTC on 9/11.). When I watch this show, I don't see anyone like the soldiers I knew in 21 years in the Army.

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/27/2005 5:23:03 AM

Riun T

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I just wanted to say that in the ONE episode that i watched, The whole show is destined to suck for one big reason. The sargent lets one of the women trot off by herself to take a piss no more than ten minutes after the squad came under sporatic small arms fire, What kind of credible viewership that pays attention to this trype can continue to punish themselves by watching further RT

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/27/2005 6:19:24 AM

Tankerace

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From what I saw, and mostly what I have heard, I think that all this show does is sully the good name of "Over There." In my opinion, there is only one thing called "Over There":

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/27/2005 2:40:55 PM

Poopyhead

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Maybe they are just trying to be controversial. If people like us talk about the show and others think about it, maybe they won't forget the men and women who are "Over There".

< Message edited by Poopyhead -- 9/27/2005 4:42:46 PM >

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/28/2005 6:47:42 AM

Wild Bill

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That's okay. I"m still watching it, and recording the episodes on DVD. Folks hated Tour of Duty. I loved it. Critics lambasted "Red Dawn." It is always one of my favorites. I'm just weird that way.

What! You guys want me to watch the really factual shows, like "Nip-Tuck" or "Desperate Housewives." Nah, I want bullets flying!

I even still watch "God is my Co-Pilot," or "Sahara (old version)." Yes, I'm weird that way

Wild Bill

< Message edited by Wild Bill -- 9/28/2005 6:50:44 AM >

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/28/2005 8:26:07 AM

m10bob

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Speilberg and Tom Hanks did a great *historical* thing with SPR and BOB, because that was a prime consideration from the git go..
Steven Bochco is a producer who is an expert at getting ratings..
This is HIS priority and he cannot be faulted for it, (so long as everybody understands that is HIS priority)..
If purple Volkswagons driven by Jane Fonda became the rage, the show would sprout them by the next episode, replete with peace flower decals and "Ho flags"................
(Interpret as you wish)..............

< Message edited by m10bob -- 9/28/2005 8:27:39 AM >

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/29/2005 9:41:54 PM

Wild Bill

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A very good one last night. I'm enjoying the series. Good acting, in my opinion.

WB

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/30/2005 6:53:43 PM

Matt2

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It's been a while since I posted on this board, but this piqued my interest.

I can tell you as someone who has been there for a year, this show is a best, an extremely poor representation of our forces, the locals, and how anything there works. The first episode I watched showed me enough not to watch again. Example - captured insurgent is protesting loudly and belligerently to a news camera, and struggling the whole time. As a commander having watched 200-300 people, including very bad ones be captured, they are all scared motherless at the point of capture. In most cases when we turned them into the local Iraqi police they simply became more scared.

At worst this show is yet another political statement meant to criticise the armed forces and the war in an overly political evironment. How sad.

Regards,

Matt

(Apologies for the spelling)

< Message edited by Matt2 -- 9/30/2005 6:55:58 PM >

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 9/30/2005 8:42:35 PM

Wild Bill

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Oh, I'm not saying it is an accurate representation of the military or what is happening in Iraq or anywhere else. Neither am I deluded into thinking every GI wears angel's wings. Neither one is a realistic approach to how things are.

I love our servicemen. I respect, highly respect all of you who have served. You have my gratitude for stepping into the breach. I admire your courage and your willingness to lay down your life for others. I salute you all.

I did not have that opportunity. I was too young for Korea, I married very young (17) and by the time Nam was full blown I was too old (28) and had four kids. Nobody wanted me

. I tried.

I love the military. My father served in WW2 in the USAAF. So did other members of my family. Three of my sons have served, 2 in the Navy and one in the Army. Its in my blood. I should have been a soldier. I wish I could have been.

But I can support those who fight and sometimes die. I had a few friends who never made it back from the "Nam." They were fine young men, idealistic and determined to do their duty. They paid the ultimate price for their zeal.

And just because Nam was a bad war (which one is good?), it does not take away from the loyal service of so many. In the early years of Nam, many volunteered to go there. They volunteered to go to hell for us. Who can disrespect that with a clear conscience?

Here I go again, rattling on. Old folks do that you know

So I watch "Over There." I have sense enough to disregard that which is not true and enjoy that which is true.

This is not a phenomenon. The "Combat" series and the "Tour of Duty" series were not realistic either. I still enjoyed them.

The record of our boys and girls fighting and dying speaks for itself and anyone who can't see that is blind indeed.

Wild Bill

< Message edited by Wild Bill -- 9/30/2005 8:45:19 PM >

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 10/1/2005 12:41:25 AM

Dragoon 45

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Bill,

I agree with just about everything you said, but have to disagree on this show. I detected an agenda in the show about Women in Combat. I know all the hype about it was that it was not trying to grind any political axes. With that said I can overlook a lot of technical issues in TV or Movies, but what I can't get over is just how far from reality the show is. Case in point as I mentioned earlier in the thread, a female soldier does not except in extreme circumstances operate as part of a squad doing door knocking. For one thing she is not trained for it nor has she had the experience of working with other squad members who have probably done over 100 dry runs for every real run they do. When I was in Afghanistan, if a patrol leader was being forced to take a female soldier along on a house to house search mission and include her as part of the initial entry element, he would have refused, and rightly so. A weak link, in this case untrained and unused to working with team and/or squad mates, is a very great liability.

Bunching up under fire, sloppy or incorrect entry procedures, even some of the more bizarre plot twists I can overlook. But when you give the public the perception that things work one way when in reality they work an entirely different way it does a disservice to the military as a whole. Women in Combat is one of those hot button issues that will not be solved any time soon. It is a debate our society as whole will have to consider sometime in the near future and I will not try to take sides on the issue. With that said the show portrays women in a very inaccurate light, it gives the public the perception that women are daily risking there lives in operations that they do not actually do. Yes there are women involved in combat on a daily basis, but not in the ways the show portrays. It makes the debate on the whole concept of women in combat that much murkier by implying that women serve in combat arms MOS's. And as much as I wish I could believe differently, experience tells me that the majority of the public will believe what the show presents is gospel truth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

Oh, I'm not saying it is an accurate representation of the military or what is happening in Iraq or anywhere else. Neither am I deluded into thinking every GI wears angel's wings. Neither one is a realistic approach to how things are.

I love our servicemen. I respect, highly respect all of you who have served. You have my gratitude for stepping into the breach. I admire your courage and your willingness to lay down your life for others. I salute you all.

I did not have that opportunity. I was too young for Korea, I married very young (17) and by the time Nam was full blown I was too old (28) and had four kids. Nobody wanted me . I tried.

I love the military. My father served in WW2 in the USAAF. So did other members of my family. Three of my sons have served, 2 in the Navy and one in the Army. Its in my blood. I should have been a soldier. I wish I could have been.

But I can support those who fight and sometimes die. I had a few friends who never made it back from the "Nam." They were fine young men, idealistic and determined to do their duty. They paid the ultimate price for their zeal.

And just because Nam was a bad war (which one is good?), it does not take away from the loyal service of so many. In the early years of Nam, many volunteered to go there. They volunteered to go to hell for us. Who can disrespect that with a clear conscience?

Here I go again, rattling on. Old folks do that you know

So I watch "Over There." I have sense enough to disregard that which is not true and enjoy that which is true.

This is not a phenomenon. The "Combat" series and the "Tour of Duty" series were not realistic either. I still enjoyed them.

The record of our boys and girls fighting and dying speaks for itself and anyone who can't see that is blind indeed.

Wild Bill

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 10/1/2005 6:58:58 AM

Wild Bill

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I will have to give you the floor on that one, Dragoon. I think you are correct on the misrepresntation of women in combat. Maybe we're both old school, but I tend to reject that premise too. Its just not realistic, even with what happend to the young female private when wounded and captured by the Iraqis. She was not really supposed to be in a combat zone, right? Though I guess all of Iraq is a combat zone.

WB

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 10/1/2005 7:36:16 AM

Dragoon 45

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You are pretty much correct. I still have friends deployed in both Iraq and Afghanistan. From the occasional e-mails I get from them, the ones that have seen the show consider it a big joke. As I get older the more cynical I get about Hollywood and the American Public. I don't know how many times I would be eating in our mess hall in Afghanistan and would see a report on CNN about something that happened in our AO. I never saw a single report that had the facts right let alone drew the correct conclusions. I just see the show slanting the debate on Women in Combat by painting an unrealistic picture of what goes on. If the American Public decides to send women in harms way especially by allowing them to serve in combat arms, okay. I just hate see their decision tainted by some slap dash Hollywood fiction.

Off my soap box now.

Thanks for putting up with me on this one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

I will have to give you the floor on that one, Dragoon. I think you are correct on the misrepresntation of women in combat. Maybe we're both old school, but I tend to reject that premise too. Its just not realistic, even with what happend to the young female private when wounded and captured by the Iraqis. She was not really supposed to be in a combat zone, right? Though I guess all of Iraq is a combat zone.

WB

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 10/1/2005 9:05:06 AM

Twotribes

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She was in a support unit. The unit was in a HUGE convoy. The Convoy got orders to change it route of march, but the unit ( convoy section) she was in did NOT get the word to change route path. They drove right into enemy positions and when they realized it tried to leave. The Iraqies either were alseep or thought the americans were iraq forces when they passed the first time, on the way back they opened fire.

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RE: The series "Over -There" - 10/1/2005 11:20:39 PM

BruceAZ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

I've been continuing to think about HUE. I've done some more reading about it. Manila, Hue, Fallujah, and the Marines!...intense urban fighting for men who have been trained for a different kind of warfare. The Marines have proved themselves "Always Ready!"

Not as familiar with this bloody house to house fighting, they still, along with comrades in the US Army did the job! That's impressive

WB

You are so right Bill. But when you think about it, it really hasn't changed for centuries. In my opinion, the last big urban fight was in Stalingrad. Hue did not compare to that effort but Hue did get more press.

The point is nothing has really changed. Weapons and tactics seem to be the same in Stalingrad, Berlin, Hue, and Bagdad. I would have thought technolgy would had allowed us to leap forward or some one really smart develop new tactics.

Recon
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RE: The series "Over -There" - 10/3/2005 12:17:09 AM

rich12545

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

I will have to give you the floor on that one, Dragoon. I think you are correct on the misrepresntation of women in combat. Maybe we're both old school, but I tend to reject that premise too. Its just not realistic, even with what happend to the young female private when wounded and captured by the Iraqis. She was not really supposed to be in a combat zone, right? Though I guess all of Iraq is a combat zone.

WB

I think at the time all of Iraq was pretty much a combat zone, but some areas more than others. That private was in a trans co and her CO, not very bright from what I could tell ( I could say something here about my opinion of officers in general but I won't), took a wrong turn and landed everybody in deep doo-doo.

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