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Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943

 
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Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 12:10:28 PM   
jrcar

 

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I know it was in Korea at war start, and that 79 and 80 regiments were in it in 1943. But I'm trying to get more info, especially Div troops.

Also if it was "triangular" or "Square".

Cheers

Rob
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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 12:17:17 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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Niehorster says it was square - here you have her OoB for 1941...(scroll down)

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/ija_ground-units/_4-rgt_organization.html

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 12:26:56 PM   
patrickl


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Hi,

Which leads to my question, if I may ask, why would some units be square while others be triangle?

Cheers!

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 12:49:57 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: patrickl

Hi,

Which leads to my question, if I may ask, why would some units be square while others be triangle?

Cheers!


Originally (until 1939, I think) all Japanese divisions were under a square TOE with two infantry brigades commanding two infantry regiments each. It seems that such large formations were not very practical (most armies, including the US-Army, abolished the "square" structure at some time after 1939). The "fouth" regiments of the "square" divisions were used to form new divisions, but IJA divisions kept one brigade HQ as "infantry commander" for its divisions. When the Pacific War started, not all "square" divisions had been converted to a triangular structure, but this process was finished in the first half of 1942 (but it seems that the regiments "freed" in 1942 did not form new divisions until 1943, the divisions raised by the IJA in 1942 were instead formed from existing Independent Mixed Brigades and newly raised battalions).

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 12:54:14 PM   
Tankerace


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Whihc, if I may toto my own horn, will highlight potential problems of land combat in War Plan Orange. Japanese and US Divisions are all square, with 2 Brigades of 2 Regiments, of three battalions. So, while in WW2 it was necessary for the triangle division, in WPO the square division persists.

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 1:13:22 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Whihc, if I may toto my own horn, will highlight potential problems of land combat in War Plan Orange. Japanese and US Divisions are all square, with 2 Brigades of 2 Regiments, of three battalions. So, while in WW2 it was necessary for the triangle division, in WPO the square division persists.


It seems that both the IJA and the US-Army were thinking that they would see another WW1-like conflict with large formations suited for static trench-warfare.

Interestingly the (Imperial) German Army had abandoned the brigade structure of infantry divisions in 1917, fielding smaller, more flexible divsions (German infantry divisions of 1939 were quite similar to those of 1917/18). Seems that both IJA and US-Army only followed suit after they had watched the success of the Wehrmacht in 1939/40.

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 1:43:52 PM   
jrcar

 

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Excellent!

By 1943 it should be triangular, but the unit designations haven't changed.

Cheers

Rob

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 2:07:58 PM   
Martti

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

quote:

ORIGINAL: patrickl

Hi,

Which leads to my question, if I may ask, why would some units be square while others be triangle?

Cheers!


Originally (until 1939, I think) all Japanese divisions were under a square TOE with two infantry brigades commanding two infantry regiments each. It seems that such large formations were not very practical (most armies, including the US-Army, abolished the "square" structure at some time after 1939). The "fouth" regiments of the "square" divisions were used to form new divisions, but IJA divisions kept one brigade HQ as "infantry commander" for its divisions. When the Pacific War started, not all "square" divisions had been converted to a triangular structure, but this process was finished in the first half of 1942 (but it seems that the regiments "freed" in 1942 did not form new divisions until 1943, the divisions raised by the IJA in 1942 were instead formed from existing Independent Mixed Brigades and newly raised battalions).


Later japanese also formed light infantry divisions in China with only 2 regiments of 5 battalions each. These division had little artillery and were basically just ten rifle battalions clustered together. They were intended as counterinsurgency force and against the chinese light infantry. The heavy divisions were organized for mechanized warfare, especially to counter the Russian armored columns. War against rural guerrilas and mechanized warfare were simply so different tasks that the japanese headquarters decided to form different organizational structures for their divisions.

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 3:29:25 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Am I right in thinking that the Russians retained the 'larger' organisation?

Steven

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 6:01:33 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Am I right in thinking that the Russians retained the 'larger' organisation?

Steven


Not exactly, the Russian Army fielded triangular rifle divisions even in 1939. Don't know since when probably since the reforms of Tuchatchevsky, maybe even since the Civil War.

However, the rifle divisions of June 1941 were quite strong formations (with 4 strong rifle companies, HMG coy, Mortar coy and AT platoon for every rifle battalion) and many sources indicate that the formations stationed in the Far East were at full strength then (because of the existing tensions between Japan and Russia this was probably true).

Interestingly the IJA fielded some so-called "reinforced" divisions (classified as "Type-A") in Manchuria that were very similar in composition and equipment to Russian divisions (unfortunately Matrix used their TOE as standard TOE for all starting divisions in Scen. 15 while historically most IJA divisions used another, much weaker, TOE, classified as "Type-B").

K

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 6:11:53 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Thanks for the info K.

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/27/2005 9:05:16 PM   
IS2m

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Am I right in thinking that the Russians retained the 'larger' organisation?

Steven


When the Soviet Tank Corps were reorganized in 1942, the new TOE called for 4 Brigades per corp. Soviet higher-level organization was different than in Western armies, but I believe the rifle divisions were 'triangular' (Although I do not believe that the Red Army used that particular nomenclature). An excellent source, if you can find it, is Viktor Suvorov's 'Inside the Soviet Army'.

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/28/2005 12:25:01 AM   
Helpless


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According to "Osprey Publishing UK - Men-at-Arms 362 - 2002 - The Japanese Army, 1931-1942, Part 1 - ISBN 1841763535 - 48s"

"The Japanese Imperial Army's infantry divisions fell into three basic categories designated Types A, B and C. of which Type A was 'strengthened'. Type B was the 'standard' and Type C was 'special'.
The Type B division, adopted as the norm, had three infantry regiments; one each engineer, field artillery, and transport regiments, and a battalion-sized reconnaissance unit; and smaller units of die support branches - signals, medical, ordnance, veterinary, water purification, chemical (anti-gas), etc. There were variations: some had a cavalry rather than a part-mounted, part-motorised reconnaissance unit; some, a tankette company attached to the infantry group in addition to or instead of a recce/cavalry unit; and some, a mountain rather than a field artillery regiment. The make-up of a division was not rigidly permanent, and could sometimes vary over time according to local circumstances.
...
The Type A 'strengthened' division had a larger infantry group, an artillery group (taking the divisional number) with an extra medium regiment of heavy howitzers, and sometimes a battlion-sized divisional tank unit; some divisional elements were weakly motorised.
...
The Type C 'special' division was a weak formation composed of two infantry brigades with a total of eight independent infantry battalions, no artillery, and minimal supporting units. This type ol division - apparently numbered 58th-70th. minus the 61st and 64th -was used mainly for anti-guerrilla warfare in China.
....

The basic strengths given below are. of course, the official establishments rather than the actual battlefield strengths on campaign. which varied widely depending upon circumstances:

1940 Type B Standard Infantry Division
Total: 20,000 men. 7,500 horses*, including:
3 infantry regis each 3.845 men
1 field artillery regt. 2,480 men
(or mountain arty regt 3,400 men. 1.400 horses) 1 reconnaissance regt 730 men
(orcavalry ragl 950 men. 1.100 horses)
1 engineer regt 900 men
1 transport regl 2.480 men
(infantry tankette unit** 100 men)
Weapons: 9,000x rides, 382x light & 112x heavy machine guns. 340x 50mm grenade dischargers; 22x 37mm anti-tank guns, 18x 70mm battalion guns. 12x 75mm regimental guns, 36x 75mm field/mtn guns: 7x armoured cars or tankettes (**plus 10-17 tankettes). *The infantry regiments had 710 draught/pack horses each, the field artillcrv regiment 2.000. and the divisional transport regiment 1.300.

Type A Strengthened Infantry Division
Total 29.408 men. 9.906 horses*. 502 motor vehicles*, including:
3 infantry regis each 5,687 men
1 field artillery regt 2.379 men
( or mountain arty regt 3.400 men. 1.400 horses) 1 medium artillery regt 951 men
1 reconnaissance regt 730 men
(or cavalry regt 950 men, 1,100 horses)
1 tank unit 717 men
1 engineer regt 1,012 men
1 transport regt 2,729 men
Weapons: 10,000x rifles. 405x LMGs, 112x HMGs, 72x AT rifles, 457x grenade dischargers; 40x 37mm AT guns, 86x 70mm battalion guns, 24x 75mm regimental guns, 24x 105mm & 12x 150mm howitzers; 13x armoured cars or tankettes. 20x light tanks, 48x medium tanks. The infantry regiments had 1,083 horses each but no motor vehicles; the field artillery regiment 2.463 horses & 49 m/vs; the medium artillery regiment 769 horses but no m/vs; the recce regiment 188 horses & 61 m/vs; the medical unit 1,468 horses but no m/vs; the transport regiment 1.222 horses & 176 m/vs.

Type C Special Infantry Division
Total: 13,000 men, 2,600 horses*, including:
2 infantry brigades each 4.750 men
1 engineer unit 600 men
1 transport unit 1.K00 men
Weapons; 6.950x rifles, 110x LMGs. 32x HMGs, 112x grenade
dischargers, 16x light mortars, 8x 70mm battalion guns.
*Each infantry brigade had 500 horses, and thee transport unit 1,290"






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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/28/2005 12:35:08 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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Thanks IS2m.

Steven

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/28/2005 12:55:42 AM   
spence

 

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Am I mistaken? It seems to me that most if not all Japanese Divisions in WiTP sport 105mm/150mm guns in their TOE (Type A's). I was previously under the impression that those heavy guns were lacking in most IJA Divisions and that that proved to be a serious deficiency in IJA firepower when they came into contact with USA divisions subsequent to the conquest of the Philippines. The lighter guns HAD been suitable against the Chinese and the various Allied forces in theater at the start of the war but were not a good match up to the standard US Division. Attaching independent heavy artillery units attached to the divisions was necessary to give a "standard" IJA division something like a US Divisions firepower (along with a higher number of units of fire than was customary in the IJA).


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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/28/2005 7:25:21 AM   
Tomo


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Oh, 20th Div.
Codename is ASA = MORNING.
It is one of the best division.
You know Japanese all divisions have their own codename.
For example, 33rd Div. is YUMI = BOW


77th regiments moved to 30th Div. in Sep.1942 before 20th move to New Guinea.
20th DIv. has only 3 regiments(78th, 79th & 80th) after that.

< Message edited by Tomo -- 9/28/2005 7:27:12 AM >


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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/28/2005 7:59:13 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

You know Japanese all divisions have their own codename


Thanks for that information. I didn't know that but then again I'm not very up on land forces. Is there a site or source that lists what the codenames were for IJA divisions?

Chez

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/28/2005 9:56:12 AM   
jrcar

 

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Thanks Tomo!

I'm trying to get the commanders at least to battalion level for Finschhafen in September 1943. Do you have any information that could help?

Cheers

Rob

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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/28/2005 11:20:55 AM   
Tomo


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Sorry but I don'have good source about leaders.

Divion leaders are(name year/month/date)
Shigeyoshi Aoki(1942/8/17-1943/6/29)
Shigeru Katagiri(1943/7/2-1944/4/28)
Masutarou Nakai(1944/5/10-end of the war)

Shigeyoshi Aoki, his name is different pronunciation maybe..Sorry I don't know.

Codename of the brother division 19th is Tora = Tiger

About 30th DIv.
Codename is Hyou = Panther
Built based on 41st regiment(part of South Sea Brigades, fame of Guam/Rabaul/New Guenia)+74st regiment + 77th regiment.
Few months ago, Big news in Japan.
There are many survivors of the Panther division, and still living in South Philipn.
Japanese goverment investigated about this rumor, after all, nobody found...


In many cases, Japanese soldiers used codenames rather than divison #.
I could find 1 Japanese website about codename.
http://imperialarmy.hp.infoseek.co.jp/unit/sidantop.html
http://imperialarmy.hp.infoseek.co.jp/unit/list/020d.html (about 20th Div.)
(part of http://imperialarmy.hp.infoseek.co.jp/index.html)

(translation http://babelfish.altavista.com/)

< Message edited by Tomo -- 9/28/2005 11:44:16 AM >


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RE: Japanese 20 div history/ORBAT 1943 - 9/28/2005 11:48:29 AM   
jrcar

 

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again thanks, also interested in 41 Div, in particular 238 regt and 51 div.

Also 85 garrison unit/7 Naval base force.

Have few Japanese sources so any help appreciated.

Cheers

Rob

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