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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/27/2005 1:16:54 AM

KG Erwin

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Andrew, you should really consider turning historic ratings "off". All forces will now have a base exp/morale/leader rating of 70. This may be preferable to starting from scratch.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/27/2005 10:24:37 AM

soldier

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Unfortunatly the ratings for the minors are so low in 8.4 that the historical ratings feature is best turned off when playing them. My Italian tanks in 43 would only get one shot a turn and then they always missed (from close range while stationary & entrenched)

. I know the Italian combat record in WW2 was lousy but I expect to inflict a few casualties....

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/27/2005 1:33:36 PM

Puukkoo

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Just a personal opinion:

I like it that way. You can find out totally new tactics while playing with an inferior force. I Just finished at the AAR section a match between Rumanians and the Soviets. I made biggest mistakes in purchasing those forces, but Soviet ineffectiveness caused the battle end in a draw.

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Post #: 123

RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/27/2005 2:34:06 PM

soldier

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I couldn't finnish my battle and would have been soundly beaten if i did, not that i have a problem with that (been there before). I was the Italian defence vs a UK assault with the AI getting 1000 more points than my force with true troop off. I was pretty quickly overun and thats rare defending against the AI. The problem for me was the performance of the Italian tanks in 43. Averaging 35 experience they could only load up one shot per turn ! Not to mention the virtual impossibilty of rallying anyone who had been fired at

.
I understand how some may like the ratings and they may have historical merits but i think actual battle play is compromised. Out of a potential 120 points experience most nations don't even reach 40 and even major players like the US only reach 60. I actually like slightly lower experience for majors but the disparity between big and small nations is too high IMHO.
I don't see how man for man the Average British or German troop was 2 or 3 times a more effective soldier than his Italian counterpart. I feel those differences should be reflected more in leadership, morale and equipment not a wholesale dumbing down of everyman in the force. I also think the Italians had seen a lot of combat by 43 and should only be slightly less experienced (maybe 10 or 15 points) but thats a subjective assessment and I'm sure others may disagree. In H2H the lesser allies are weaker but still combat effective (and very challenging to win with). I think Andrew has made some valid points here (despite his poor language) that shouldn't be dissmissed. I'll be playing H2H unless theres some major improvements coming for 8.4, too many oddities as it currently stands especially in infantry combat.

< Message edited by soldier -- 9/27/2005 2:42:45 PM >

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Post #: 124

RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/27/2005 5:04:48 PM

Puukkoo

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Always when you purchase a force you get just average-joes. It is true that all armies should have toughies among the masses, but what is the fascination of it all if Germans and Italians were both equally tough?

Although my battle as Rumanian ended as de-facto Soviet victory, I had some tough warriors in my team too. One Engineer Squad toasted six kills and that was more than many average-joes can do. This shows that even less-trained troops can do damage if a chance arises. And if you played a campaign with Italians or other minors you'll see how they get better when their experience rises.

It is just a historical fact that some nations had more better soldiers than the others. Just look at the fighter aces and see who had the highest number of aerial victories. Best German ace had 352, best Italian 29.

As regards for the tank combat I did not waste my points to junk. A horde of infantry in covered terrain is better than a undergunned and slow tank.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/27/2005 6:12:34 PM

VikingNo2

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I hope they revisit the experience, they are just too low at the moment IMO. I could see the leadership varying widely but not the plain exp/moral. I can't even play the Italian at the moment

< Message edited by VikingNo2 -- 9/27/2005 7:46:13 PM >

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Post #: 126

RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/27/2005 7:25:24 PM

Puukkoo

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Well, they are lower ratings than they were before. In SP1 Rumanians and Italians had ratings of 40-50. Currently German ratings are about 60-70, they should be also revised. In SP3 Germans had 80-90.

In H2H those values are somewhat balanced. I don't see why they should go any further.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 1:15:40 AM

Goblin

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Poll started at The Depot.

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6993

Goblin

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 1:31:01 AM

KG Erwin

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Do you want historical results, or a balanced game? To keep in mind the original intent of SPWaW, it was to present a realistic and historical view of how tactical combat in WWII was conducted, NOT to guarantee a "fun" game with everything being more or less equal.

I have heard many guys sing the praises of H2H, but this very title "Head-to-Head" is exactly what it's designed for. The design of the OOBs/ratings for SPWaW was/is geared towards the solo player, as this is the mode in which the majority of players use. I posted a poll on this very subject a few years ago, and solo play was by far the most popular method of play.

With this in mind, and given the limitations of the AI, a challenge must be presented. In this, I think that 8.4 succeeds. Do you guys want "easy", or do you want "tough"? You gotta rally your troops? Yes-- this is why we encourage the purchase of companies, with the company commanders offering their extra rallying points.

Sorry, guys -- I believe that SPWaW should be held to the same criteria for historical accuracy as any other WWII game, as can best be achieved in an ancient game engine.

I refer back to Michael-- he wrote the original code for the Windows version of SPWaW, but later alterations were done by Tom Proudfoot. Michael saw that some flaws were left unaddressed, so he has graciously taken it upon himself (with Matrix' blessing), to address these remaining issues.

At this point, I will say that we have a game that pays attention to history and offers a challenging game experience.

Perhaps some of you have gotten used to the easy way out for this game. This is not what it was meant to be. I include myself in this category-- as it now stands, the AI can kick my butt sometimes. You really need to study your troops' capabilities, and make the right decisions. This is a wake-up call. It wasn't MEANT to be easy.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 9/28/2005 1:33:02 AM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 1:52:09 AM

Goblin

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Again, there is tough and challenging, and then there is absolutely totally a waste of time to try and play. Since the values are completely arbitrary, who is to say that a closer spread is not more accurate?

I have not played H2H PBEM. I play it exclusively against the AI, especially since the new ratings came out and turned the minor countries into something that is no fun at all to play. Sorry, but I believe that they did something on the battlefield besides sit there or run when they got shot at.

I recommend you stop playing the Corp or the Germans and try a campaign or two as a 'minor' nation (say, Rumania or Italy or something) before you chastise people about 'easy'. Try to rally them after they are shot at, since you brought it up. The game could be adjusted infinately until everyone always lost against the AI. Again, no fun.

Goblin

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 2:06:22 AM

KG Erwin

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Ok, here's my suggestion, which I passed to Michael. The problem with the "minors" isn't so much the individual bravery of their soldiers, but the poor quality of their leadership.

Maybe bumping up the exp/morale is the solution, but as the Polish General Sosabowski so pointedly asked in "A Bridge Too Far" : 'In case of a massacre, what difference would it make"?

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 2:26:50 AM

Goblin

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I actually agree with you. Morale and experience should be higher, not necessarily leadership. Troops out of basic should have similar morale worldwide. Granted, some were higher than others, but there should not be that horrible of a difference. Same for experience, though training differences by nation would vary this more than morale would. Leadership is another story.

Goblin

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 2:57:51 AM

soldier

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German victories were won with better leadership, equipment and tactics. You the player reflects much of this with the kind of weapons you purchase, your deployment and the strategies you use not because your Germans are considered to be twice good as some lesser nation. Sure Experience and morale played their part but they shouldnt be the deciding factor. Use your head, thats what war gaming is about

< Message edited by soldier -- 9/28/2005 3:03:49 AM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 3:22:54 AM

KG Erwin

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OK, now we're getting somewhere. I can only hope that Michael is taking these suggestions seriously.

The only downside I can see is that potentially, your best troops may tend to stand and get destroyed rather than retreat, MAYBE rally, and live to fight again later. Have you guys considered this possibility?

THIS was the situation facing the Italians and Rumanians defending the flanks of the Sixth Army at the time of the Russian counterattack in November 1942.

In actual fact, the flanks simply melted.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 3:39:12 AM

Mike Wood

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Hello...

"Again, there is tough and challenging, and then there is absolutely totally a waste of time to try and play. Since the values are completely arbitrary, who is to say that a closer spread is not more accurate?"

Gary. The values in the new version are those Gary used in SPI and SPIII (copied and pasted tables from SPIII code).

"I have not played H2H PBEM. I play it exclusively against the AI, especially since the new ratings came out and turned the minor countries into something that is no fun at all to play. Sorry, but I believe that they did something on the battlefield besides sit there or run when they got shot at."

Yes. Yes, many did something other than sit or run, when shot at. Surrender en mass or run before shot at.

"I recommend you stop playing the Corp or the Germans and try a campaign or two as a 'minor' nation (say, Rumania or Italy or something) before you chastise people about 'easy'. Try to rally them after they are shot at, since you brought it up. The game could be adjusted infinitely until everyone always lost against the AI. Again, no fun."

Usually play Soviets. In early war, assume when shot at, will route. Account for by holding reserves. Fun is somewhat subjective. Game could be "adjusted infinitely" and still not please all.

Not given greatly to debate, will post on topic this once. Historic values were evaluated and included in game. If disagree with values or feel no fun, fine. Do not use them. Set experience manually. That is purpose of option.

Thanks for Your input...

Michael Wood

< Message edited by Mike Wood -- 9/28/2005 3:43:17 AM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 3:59:45 AM

soldier

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quote:

Surrender en mass or run before shot at.

Now thats a wargame

< Message edited by soldier -- 9/28/2005 4:01:01 AM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 4:00:58 AM

Goblin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I can only hope that Michael is taking these suggestions seriously.

Question answered.

Goblin

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 4:05:12 AM

Alby

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Thanks for your Input Mike..
It is appreciated, as well as all the work you are doing and have done.

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Post #: 138

RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 4:06:43 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

quote:

Surrender en mass or run before shot at.

Now thats a wargame

Yes, a historical wargame. I get the impression that you younger guys never played a board game. The concepts of national characteristics show the unfortunate reality of WWII combat. Does the war end differently in your reading of it?

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Post #: 139

RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 4:11:49 AM

Goblin

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I think this is where we are supposed to waste time posting all the times theses nations fought and did not run or sit there (probably the majority), and have nothing changed. I'm not going to bother.

KG, its a wargame, not a war documentary.

Goblin

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 4:45:38 AM

soldier

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Well i was hoping to see more "war" from the minor nations and less surrender en masse thats for sure. If I want a more balanced perspective of the minors nations I'll play H2H. If I wan't Master race vs Inferior Subhuman Romanian I'll play 8.4.
Like I said before your choices in combat should determine a result not someones prejudged opinion on how a nation performed in history be that opinion right or wrong.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 4:58:34 AM

Wild Bill

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Nice of you to reply, Andrew. I can change the settings myself for scenarios and campaigns to better fit the real tenor of the troops but the coding issues and OOB reconstruction is out of my league.

If you can provide me with some information about some battles in which Romania was involved, I'll try to put together a scenario that mirrors the action of your countrymen as it should be.

WB

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 5:06:01 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I think this is where we are supposed to waste time posting all the times theses nations fought and did not run or sit there (probably the majority), and have nothing changed. I'm not going to bother.

KG, its a wargame, not a war documentary.

Goblin

By your definition, then, every nation should be equal? The Bulgarians should have an equal chance to conquer Europe and challenge America?

Ok, then, I've got a game for you--Medieval: Total War.

I've got it, and frankly, I love it -- you can plan strategy, AND fight tactical battles.

Now, back to SPWaW -- Goblin, I understand that you regard SPWaW as a fun game. Yes, it IS.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 6:39:02 AM

Wild Bill

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Never had so much fun in gaming as I've had with this jewel, Gunny. That is what it is all about. Gob called it well and I think we all agree. That is one of the reasons we're still here.

It is a classic!

WB

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Post #: 144

RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 7:19:49 AM

AndrewC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood
Not given greatly to debate, will post on topic this once. Historic values were evaluated and included in game. If disagree with values or feel no fun, fine. Do not use them. Set experience manually. That is purpose of option.

Bullshit. The ratings you and Gary created contain as much historical truth as fiction. I have yet to see proof that some sort of criteria was established to determine the ratings instead of arbitrarily choosing a value. I'm starting to think that you randomly hit the keyboard in a fit of anger when assigning the new values. Beside being historically inaccurate, the new ratings also made the game next to unplayable on the Romanian side. Infantry always flees at the sight of incoming tanks, they are impossible to rally once shot at, they get very few shots, etc. I'm not going to waste your precious time anymore, but just out of curiosity, can you come up with several examples of romanian troops performing this bad? If you do, please let me know: jagdpanther86@hotmail.com

Not to say SPWaW is not a great game. If major participants are your thing, this is the game to have. Otherwise, look elsewhere.

< Message edited by AndrewC -- 9/28/2005 9:59:07 AM >

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 10:21:10 AM

rlc27

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Hi all,

I've been absent from these forums for a long while, but it's fall and fall always makes me think of the Hurtgen Forest and the Battle of the Bulge, which leads to getting out my old wargames. ANYWAY. I had to post in this thread after having read the whole thing.

Andrew, the choice that is put before you seems to be either to continue to gripe at a game that is completely free and open to your own interpretation, or to look elsewhere as you've said. The community here is VERY open to your suggestions, but they keep getting posted in such a brash manner that is well within the boundaries of pretty harsh nationalism combined with immaturity. You have not only argued for your cause, which I think is noble, but have also insulted those who put the time and effort into this game--even those who are sympathetic to you.

Now I have no problem whatsoever with your issues with the game, but as multiple posters have pointed out, you can change them however you want. That's the beauty of the open architecture included with the design. And for some reason that brash language you keep using never leaves, even after you apologized, which makes your apology seem rather hollow.

If you have some plan in mind as to how to change this, then do so! Work on the OOB's, and then submit them as a mod to the game! It's a pretty open community!

If you've another game in mind that models things in a way that is closer to what you'd like, then by all means go there, but sitting around doing nothing but responding angrily to people's attempt to help you just makes you look obnoxious.

Honestly, if this was a $50 game I could see it being more of an issue, but I don't know of ONE game design company that would respond favorably to all these insults you've posted.

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 1:14:56 PM

Goblin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I think this is where we are supposed to waste time posting all the times theses nations fought and did not run or sit there (probably the majority), and have nothing changed. I'm not going to bother.

KG, its a wargame, not a war documentary.

Goblin

By your definition, then, every nation should be equal? The Bulgarians should have an equal chance to conquer Europe and challenge America?

Are we reading the same forum?

Goblin

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 2:47:54 PM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood
Not given greatly to debate, will post on topic this once. Historic values were evaluated and included in game. If disagree with values or feel no fun, fine. Do not use them. Set experience manually. That is purpose of option.

Bullshit. The ratings you and Gary created contain as much historical truth as fiction. I have yet to see proof that some sort of criteria was established to determine the ratings instead of arbitrarily choosing a value. I'm starting to think that you randomly hit the keyboard in a fit of anger when assigning the new values. Beside being historically inaccurate, the new ratings also made the game next to unplayable on the Romanian side. Infantry always flees at the sight of incoming tanks, they are impossible to rally once shot at, they get very few shots, etc. I'm not going to waste your precious time anymore, but just out of curiosity, can you come up with several examples of romanian troops performing this bad? If you do, please let me know: jagdpanther86@hotmail.com

Not to say SPWaW is not a great game. If major participants are your thing, this is the game to have. Otherwise, look elsewhere.

Well, Andrew...there IS another way we can "grade" the different combatants.
It's like the play-offs in a sports season..We give the first eliminated a low score, with the last eliminated a higher score..
Let's see now, as I recall, Romania changed jerseys in mid-season..Is this correct ?

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RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 3:09:06 PM

omegaall

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Well I must thank all for this enjoyable thread!!!

But it is a game and only to a point can it be historical.

Also I don't believe we as a set of players were told 'YOU MUST USE' the lates mech.exe so I would assume if you dont like the latest values one would move BACK to 8.3.

I would hate to see this game try to be something it is not and was never meant to be.

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Post #: 149

RE: 3 years and nothing changed - 9/28/2005 4:27:53 PM

VikingNo2

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Just to ask a question, if you set the exp manually does that give every unit the value you set? Or is it a random thing where some unit are at 60 some at 55 some at 50 and so on I have never used this option

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Post #: 150