In Praise of Smaller Core Forces

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In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/26/2005 1:08:29 AM

KG Erwin

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As a corollary to the "Death of Motorized Infantry" thread, I've finally come to the realization that while huge core forces may have their place (for a Pacific slug-fest it works well), any attempt at recreating European or desert-style "moble warfare" demands that the forces be reduced.

It took me long enough to finally grasp this, as I've always been enamored of a full reinforced USMC battalion fighting its way through jungles and across god-forsaken barren islands.

As the Germans, though, it's a different story. I tried a long campaign battle with two SS motorized infantry platoons, one motorized engineer platoon, three 3-tank sections, four armored cars, two flak-wagens, two 81mm mortars, two 37mm ATGs, and two 75mm IGs. This keeps true troop cost under 1500 points, and allows room for manuever even on the small 40-hex wide maps. All the essentials of a combined-arms "mini-kampfgruppe" are there, so I only have some 60-65 units to manage.

So, the lesson I've learned is, dependent on circumstances, sometimes smaller IS better.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/26/2005 8:44:15 AM

soldier

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I agree and think smaller forces work a little better for a German long campaign against the AI. Here your mechanised forces can concentrate to exploit the gaps and immobility of the early war allied forces with those dumb 40 hex maps you always get. Might help to make Eastern front battles a little more spacious as well. I think the AI has some more trouble picking and deploying balanced forces with less money though

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/26/2005 10:49:07 AM

IBTyrone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
As the Germans, though, it's a different story. I tried a long campaign battle with two SS motorized infantry platoons, one motorized engineer platoon, three 3-tank sections, four armored cars, two flak-wagens, two 81mm mortars, two 37mm ATGs, and two 75mm IGs. This keeps true troop cost under 1500 points, and allows room for manuever even on the small 40-hex wide maps. All the essentials of a combined-arms "mini-kampfgruppe" are there, so I only have some 60-65 units to manage.

Hey Gunny.

I play opposite theaters than you--mostly European theater campaigns with the occasional Pacific or African scenario thrown in. But the kampfgruppe (or Task Force) format you described above is usually about the size of force I play. One company of infantry, two to three sections of tanks, halftracks, and assorted supporting artillery. For flavor I like to throw in some armored cars for fast recon/hole plugging ability and the odd TD.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/26/2005 4:18:43 PM

KNomad

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I usually play with 1000 points, but have considered upping it to 1500 so that the AI can purchase a more balanced force.

I like the smaller cores because you actually have manueving room on the map. I also tend to play with Victory Frontage Off, AI Advantage.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/26/2005 5:14:33 PM

robot

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3500 for my force is nothing. This includes 3 companies of foot troops and two companys of tanks with 3 platoons each. Battles are long and slow. Lotsa and lots of bombardment and shooting is almost continues all over the map. Love it to death cant get enough of the noise some time.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/26/2005 6:57:07 PM

Wild Bill

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This goes to a premise that I've long held and that I will reiterate here. After doing over 1,300 scenarios for various games I've learned some things (you would think so, wouldn't you?).

The vast majority, often silent, is a busy one. Life makes it demands. The comforts and aids to reduce time in the lesser desired aspects of life has been devoured with other commitments and obligations. In other words, we don't have much time to call our own.

SO...this vast majority wants battles that they can play in one night, usually between arriving home and supper or before Desperate Housewives or Over There come on, or between putting the kids to bed and crashing yourself.

THat means that a scenario or campaign battle should normally run about 1-2 hours playing time. Overinvolvment is not a luxury many can afford.

A big battle is good every once in awhile but most enjoy the smaller quick play types of fights. So that would concur with Gunny's postulation here.

THose are my favorites too.

WB

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/26/2005 8:16:35 PM

DoubleDeuce

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I've always preferred smaller scenario's. Time is a luxury I never have enough of. I want something I can finish in an hour or 2. Same for campaigns. I prefer to be able to complete 1-2 scenario in a gaming session. I hate to leave a campaign in the middle of a scenario since I may not always get right back to it and it breaks the the flow of the story .... at least it does for me anyway.

< Message edited by Double Deuce -- 9/26/2005 8:18:30 PM >

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/28/2005 6:41:18 AM

Wild Bill

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You echo the feelings of many gamers, Mike, me included...WB

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/28/2005 6:10:15 PM

DoubleDeuce

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

You echo the feelings of many gamers, Mike, me included...WB

It's probably a carry over from my boardgaming days....Unless you want your family to sit on the floor to eat you better have the game done and off the table in a couple hours or so after you start.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/28/2005 11:00:48 PM

GaryG48

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Add one more vote for 1-2 hour battles. Especially the ones that have something new to teach me. It is much easier to see where I went wrong the same day it happened. Two or three days latter I have lost the train of thought and am a loss as to why I lost.

-Gary

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/29/2005 7:42:45 PM

hank

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my 1st post in any SPWaW forum

A question about points to buy forces with. When I buy what I need for a core group, I hit Done and I go to another screen for purchasing "Support" forces. Besides the obvious answer of them being additional forces to fight with, what do they represent? Other forces unattached to your division that you have control over? Also, many times I don't have enough "formations" to add these support forces so I have to go back to preferences and reset the number of formations number higher then start all over building my army. Is there a better way?

Also, does anyone have a magic ratio for points between German and Russian forces and German and US forces? What I mean is if I have 2400 points for the German side (which I play most of the time for eastern front campaigns); should I set the Russian (computer) number of points to 4800 or more or less? (will 4800 pts allow the russian side to have a 2 to 1 advantage in overall forces) ... and same for the US vs Germans. I think (but correct me if I'm wrong) setting the computer controlled points will allow the computer to buy more (or less) than I do based on the ration of the two point numbers. (gosh that's confusing but hopefully someone will read my mind and answer my ?s) That term "magic ratio" is probably misleading since if what I think happens does happen I can simulate the discrepancy in forces by adjusting the points for the AI controlled side. (ie 4 to 1 odds = 4800 pts to 1200 pts ... etc. etc.)

I've really re-descovered this game. Its awesome and I can see why it has such a huge following for so many years.

hank

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/29/2005 8:40:13 PM

Riun T

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Hey Hank, I think you've got the just of it for doing created battles, but believe that we were talking about long campaign core force builds.
And in that case u can toggle the fights in the initial support purchase screen. In about centre left under the MAP nad MISSION buttons. RT

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/29/2005 8:50:44 PM

Poopyhead

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Welcome hank!

I rationalize the support points as additional units that your commander allocates to your mission. Perhaps you will need engineer support, or assault artillery or an air strike or two. This balances your unit to the mission by filling in any gaps.
In the long campaign, if I start with a large number of formations (and I usually do), the first thing I do is to use the "Assign to a new HQ" key to bunch up some of the formations. I put the flak and ATG's together. The transport, ammo carrier and anything extra I assign to the company commanders. If I want the infantry to have an extra HMG, then I assign it to their platoon leader, and so on. I pick my companies first and then all of the formations that are going to be reassigned. This way the reassigned formation slots disappear and my battalion formations run say A to Z without any breaks. Of course, you're still stuck with too many formations for the very first battle.
If you find a "magic ratio" please let me know. The AI is pretty weak and you sound like you know what you are doing, so you will have to play with the custom battle settings to get a challenge. Giving the AI more points does mean that it will buy more units (or more expensive units), although this will not always translate into a direct 2-1 unit ratio, because one side may have cheaper infantry or more expensive tanks. The long campaign battles have a built-in ratio for forces, based on the type of mission. Once, I fought about 150 Russian tanks with 30 Panzers.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/29/2005 9:30:40 PM

Wild Bill

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Good to have in you the groujp, Hank. You are welcome here.

WB

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/29/2005 11:52:03 PM

hank

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Thanks men!!

Its amazing to me the SPWaW group is so active after so many years.

I've got a friend who's an old SP player I'm currently locked horns with over a BiN On to Paris scenario. I think in a week or two we will be starting up my 1st pbem game with SP. Once I get my PBEM feet wet, I'll be propositioning for more pbem games. I've been into PBEM big time with HPS' PzCampaigns and Decisive Battles/Kosun Pocket and Battles in Normandy. (you can see my Hank on SSG's Run 5 site quite frequently ... and on the Blitz site - same name)

But, SPWaW has really got my attention right now. ... guess I never played a game at the platoon/individual vehicle scale like SP.

Thanks again

Hank

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/30/2005 12:21:48 AM

KG Erwin

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Hank, welcome to the forums, but be prepared to suffer much sleep deprivation.

Some interesting additions/mods to the standard SPWaW are now available -- most of these can be found at the Depot : http://www.spwaw.com

There are alternate vehicle icons, new terrain graphics, new OOBs, sound effects and even alternate in-game music.

In other words, you now have the tools to completely customize SPWaW to suit your taste.

As if that isn't enough, programmer Michael Wood is working on enhancements to the game engine itself.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 9/30/2005 8:59:52 PM

Wild Bill

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QUestion. TO enjoy these and use them, say in scenario design, would the player playing the game need the same mods in order to enjoy them? I would think so. Is there any way to standardize all of this so it a full SPWAW community thing, everyone is on the same page?

That would be ideal.

I'm all for change for the better! And if it improves the game, adds new eye-candy or makes scenario building more fun, great. But I would hope and dream for a standard game where I would not be swapping mods all the time. Maybe that is not going to happen.

Wild Bill

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 10/3/2005 8:54:46 PM

panda124c

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I like to play with reinforced Infantry Companies, sometimes foot, sometimes mech. Right now I'm doing a WWII Campain with one platoon of Ger Motor Infantry and one section of Assualt guns and One Italian mech infantry co, with Desert Recon unit. one platoon of Italian assault guns, one platoon of Italian med tanks, a platoon of Italian how. and a German recon section with vehicals. Damn those Italian's learn slow, but they are getting better.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 10/3/2005 9:56:23 PM

DoubleDeuce

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

QUestion. TO enjoy these and use them, say in scenario design, would the player playing the game need the same mods in order to enjoy them? I would think so. Is there any way to standardize all of this so it a full SPWAW community thing, everyone is on the same page?

Yes anyone playing would need to have those OOB's at least. With the graphics IIRC it is not necessary for both players to have them installed as these enhance the game images only of the one using them and do not affect the other player.

Have you looked at the Modswapper included with SPWAW now? It's intent is to help faclitate this by allowing players to install/uninstall Mods with a few clicks and no overwriting of the other data. With this tool you can play several modded versions from 1 install of SPWAW. The exception being H2H since it was designed PRE-Modswapper.

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RE: In Praise of Smaller Core Forces - 10/3/2005 11:21:42 PM

Alby

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DD is correct, the sounds and Graphics mods can be played PBEM with no ill effects.
However as always both players would need the same OOBS for PBEM.
Some scenario creators are now using the Depot Multi MOD version 1 for their scenarios.

Dutchie is one I know of for sure..
Most scenarios seem ok with the mods...however, any scenarios that use the German tanks with a (+) PZIIIJ+ for instance will give strange Icons because I eliminated all of them except the PZIIIL+ which DAS Reich Uses.
I just kind of compromized between the the standard say PZIIIJ and The PZIIIJ+

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