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RE: Taking a break... - 9/30/2005 4:33:25 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I have 7 PBEM running on 5 different installs.
On a totally random basis, once in a while, I go out of sync. It happened the same in UV.

I've also exprienced some really annoying bugs and bad game features.
I still think this is the best wargame ever and I try to consider the bugs and the bad features as a bad and unintended implementation of the concept of 'bad luck'.
If I get a bug, it's like one of my generals has gotten drunk and given really bad orders that lead to the vaporization of a unit.

I understand your frustration and I had it too. I still feel though that this is a great game, worth spending time with.

Cheer up.

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Post #: 31
RE: Taking a break... - 9/30/2005 9:37:22 PM   
Slaughtermeyer


Posts: 156
Joined: 5/10/2002
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

I have 7 PBEM running on 5 different installs.
On a totally random basis, once in a while, I go out of sync. It happened the same in UV.

I wonder if you would have gone out of sync if you had 7 PBEM on 7 installs. Maybe a separate install for each PBEM (and even for each game against the AI if you have any) is the way to go. Has anyone who had a maximum of 1 game per install ever had any sync problems?


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We must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war,for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war.It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy. R.Jackson,1945

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Post #: 32
RE: Taking a break... - 9/30/2005 10:17:37 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slaughtermeyer

quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

I have 7 PBEM running on 5 different installs.
On a totally random basis, once in a while, I go out of sync. It happened the same in UV.

I wonder if you would have gone out of sync if you had 7 PBEM on 7 installs. Maybe a separate install for each PBEM (and even for each game against the AI if you have any) is the way to go. Has anyone who had a maximum of 1 game per install ever had any sync problems?



Yes - i have. Clears up after using the patented Pompack method, though.

(in reply to Slaughtermeyer)
Post #: 33
RE: Taking a break... - 9/30/2005 11:12:00 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Tell you what...

As a software developer myself (14 years, BS CIS), I'm stongly considering going back to school, and getting a Masters in something completely differnt.

I don't think folks realize just how complex software has become. The myrrid number of OS (un)compatabilities, driver issues, internet considerations...

It's NOT easy. I would be the first to complain that a "stand alone" game, without 2 player or internet should be bug-free. But it's not that easy (for the reasons listed above). Your code can be rock-solid on one system, then have some quirk of memory addressing on a driver somebody's video card, and wham, you get flooded with complaints that the software is crap (when it fact it's a driver compatability issue, something you have no control over).

Don't get me wrong. I get frustrated as much the rest of everyone. And as a developer myself, I can see some glaring errors where I can see what was done, and I just wonder why.

But I am saying that there a LOT of things that can contribute to something like the sync isssue. It's one of those things where reach half way to the goal (of fixing it) every time. With each patch, you get closer, but you never quash all of problems.

If you can't get -any- games to sync up, then yes, you're screwed. But for the occasional "speed bump" of 2 - 3 turns where they're similar but not the same, the best thing you can do is to have the Japanese player send the combat.txt file with the 001.

And by the way, an "un-sync'd" turn does have some advantages. In case you haven't noticed, all of the events are -potentially- real. As in, if your ASW group finds and kills a sub that is not on the actual replay, that sub REALLY IS in that location. Consider it useful Sigint info, and payback for not seeing the critical hits and ground odds from the combat.txt that your Japanese opponent (should) send you.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 9/30/2005 11:16:08 PM >

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Post #: 34
RE: Taking a break... - 9/30/2005 11:31:41 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Tell you what...

As a software developer myself (14 years, BS CIS), I'm stongly considering going back to school, and getting a Masters in something completely differnt.

I don't think folks realize just how complex software has become. The myrrid number of OS (un)compatabilities, driver issues, internet considerations...

It's NOT easy. I would be the first to complain that a "stand alone" game, without 2 player or internet should be bug-free. But it's not that easy (for the reasons listed above). Your code can be rock-solid on one system, then have some quirk of memory addressing on a driver somebody's video card, and wham, you get flooded with complaints that the software is crap (when it fact it's a driver compatability issue, something you have no control over).

Don't get me wrong. I get frustrated as much the rest of everyone. And as a developer myself, I can see some glaring errors where I can see what was done, and I just wonder why.

But I am saying that there a LOT of things that can contribute to something like the sync isssue. It's one of those things where reach half way to the goal (of fixing it) every time. With each patch, you get closer, but you never quash all of problems.

If you can't get -any- games to sync up, then yes, you're screwed. But for the occasional "speed bump" of 2 - 3 turns where they're similar but not the same, the best thing you can do is to have the Japanese player send the combat.txt file with the 001.

And by the way, an "un-sync'd" turn does have some advantages. In case you haven't noticed, all of the events are -potentially- real. As in, if your ASW group finds and kills a sub that is not on the actual replay, that sub REALLY IS in that location. Consider it useful Sigint info, and payback for not seeing the critical hits and ground odds from the combat.txt that your Japanese opponent (should) send you.

-F-


FYI...it wasn't the sync issue that killed my enthusiasm. The sync issue can be gotten around IRC just by turning off the animations...it just started the downward spiral...Take the sync issue...

Couple that with the Cargo Task Force I create in Saigon on turn one with orders to load Resources and travel to Sasebo.. turn 2 still loading, turn 3 unloading, reset orders, turn 4 loading, turn 5 unloading, reset orders turn 6 loading , turn 7 unloading, disband the task force and form a new one that finally loads and starts on its way ....

Couple that with the 55th division who had four days head start on the 3rd Mountain Artillery out of Bangkok and ended up 12 miles behind the artillery on the trail to Moulmein because its movement got reset because of an airstrike...

But what really killed the game for me was the vanishing 65th Bde. Not just the first time but the second time. I could even accept the fact that the main unit being highly fatigued just gave up the ghost and melted away...what I could not accept was when the fragment which had become the parent also disappeared two turns later.

As I stated earlier I think I'm going to give up computer games altogether. My neighbor has already done so for the same reason. I have yet to come across a computer game without serious bugs. I understand your concerns about compatibility issues between computers, its that very issue that has probably driven me back to paper and cardboard although who I'll find that has the time escapes me...






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(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 35
RE: Taking a break... - 9/30/2005 11:37:46 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		Shame to see you go TS.

FWIW not all computer wargames are buggy, there are some of high quality. I will not name names on this forum though.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 36
RE: Taking a break... - 9/30/2005 11:40:04 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I'd love to play the cardboard games. My brother & I still have a quite a few of them.

Unfortuntately, between wives, kids, jobs, and lawns, it's tough to actually MEET to play them (entre' computer war-gaming...)

[*sigh*]

-F-

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Post #: 37
RE: Taking a break from WitP... - 10/1/2005 2:02:53 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline 		Sorry to butt right in guys on this one

I have played quit a few PBEM games going back 4-5 years now of Combat Mission.Zip-ing a file can and does at times cause exactly what you all are discribing. Compressing and extracting the code will scramble the file at times.



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Post #: 38
RE: Taking a break from WitP... - 10/1/2005 2:04:27 AM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi Sarge,

Only prob here is that most of the time the file is not zipped and the out-of-sync still occurs.

Steven

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WitE Tester
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Post #: 39
RE: Taking a break from WitP... - 10/1/2005 6:37:44 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Tree, I understand what you are feeling. I have taken a hiatus from games quite a few times in the past. I keep returning for one reason... only on computer will I ever be able to finish a grand campaign like War in the Pacific. I have never been able to keep a single cardboard/paper game set up for anything like the time needed to finish any of the monster games. Thus I will keep coming back to WITP. I consider its bugs to be a whole lot less game breaking than Typhoon Kitty has always been (okay, one game of On To Richmond was desctroyed by an actual earthquake a few years back).

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 40
RE: Taking a break... - 10/1/2005 1:51:13 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Yes - i have. Clears up after using the patented Pompack method, though.


What is "Pompack method"?

O.


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Post #: 41
RE: Taking a break... - 10/1/2005 1:58:04 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Yes - i have. Clears up after using the patented Pompack method, though.


What is "Pompack method"?

O.




The Japanese turn off reports send the turn to the allies who also turn off reports, The Japanese player receives the turn and turns reports back on and executes the turn. Jwilkerson describes it earlier in the thread...

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

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Post #: 42
RE: Taking a break... - 10/1/2005 1:58:45 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Here's what I have to say about sync issue... I know it's a nasty issue and I won't offer any remedies, just a different outlook...

When playing as Allies running the turn has already lost its magic for me. I know that whatever happened already happened (on my opponents PC) and, somehow, sync or no sync, I am not that crazy to watch the animation. I merely glance over TXT reports, and run them thru Bodhi's excellent utility (I always ask my IJN opponents to send me TXT files).

Bodhi's utility sums up, consolidates and presents data from the turn much better than game itself anyway.

So, basically, my routines as IJN or Allied player are radically different. As IJN I always watch animation replay, and never use Bodhi's util (not much use for IJN, since IJN sigint is useless). As Allies, I never watch replay, and use Bodhi utility as "game history log" and "intel center", before opening the turn in game proper.

Treespider I understand your frustration. For me, sync bug is not a game breaker. Besides, leaving PC wargaming as whole because of temporary frustration seems to radical a decision. There are plenty of excellent, less frustrating (if perhaps, less rewarding too) games around. Have you tried GG WaW or HTTR?

Oleg


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Post #: 43
RE: Taking a break... - 10/1/2005 2:03:27 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Here's what I have to say about sync issue... I know it's a nasty issue and I won't offer any remedies, just a different outlook...

When playing as Allies running the turn has already lost its magic for me. I know that whatever happened already happened (on my opponents PC) and, somehow, sync or no sync, I am not that crazy to watch the animation. I merely glance over TXT reports, and run them thru Bodhi's excellent utility (I always ask my IJN opponents to send me TXT files).

Bodhi's utility sums up, consolidates and presents data from the turn much better than game itself anyway.

So, basically, my routines as IJN or Allied player are radically different. As IJN I always watch animation replay, and never use Bodhi's util (not much use for IJN, since IJN sigint is useless). As Allies, I never watch replay, and use Bodhi utility as "game history log" and "intel center", before opening the turn in game proper.

Treespider I understand your frustration. For me, sync bug is not a game breaker. Besides, leaving PC wargaming as whole because of temporary frustration seems to radical a decision. There are plenty of excellent, less frustrating (if perhaps, less rewarding too) games around. Have you tried GG WaW or HTTR?

Oleg




Haven't tried HTTR.....WaW just didn't do anything for me...

And remember the sync issue was not the game killer for me it just started the snowball.


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 44
RE: Taking a break... - 10/1/2005 2:06:05 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		The issue I have with computer games is that if the game is broken it is broken and your are out the $19.99 - $79.99 you spent. At least with paper and cardboard you can use the components and develop your own rules if the game is broken.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 45
RE: Taking a break... - 10/1/2005 2:08:21 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I merely glance over TXT reports, and run them thru Bodhi's excellent utility (I always ask my IJN opponents to send me TXT files).



To explain this better... I put TXT files from my opponents mail into WITP save folder, open Bodhi's Util, and click "Process new data" of whatever that button is called. So I build a log of the game in Bodhi's util. I shortly analyse what happened, then open the game and do my turn (without watching the animation).

I watch 001 file only when I need exact data like CAP over some base I sent recon to investigate (this is not written in TXT files).

O.



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Post #: 46
RE: Taking a break... - 10/1/2005 2:49:51 PM   
Sharkosaurus rex


Posts: 467
Joined: 10/19/2004
From: under the waves
Status: offline 		I too have a lonnnngggg list of crap games with big bugs and stupid design features. This is why I won't start a PBEM game from someone on this forum. (I am only playing a local friend.) I would love to be playing 8-10 games but I don't have the confidence any of them would get finished. Sadly some of the worst offenders have Gary Grisby on the cover. Maybe computer wargames should have a warning label on the back-

Anyway- if you have any save files of old turns I could run them through my computer and send them onto your opponent and see if the replay bug persists. Might confirm if it is a compatability problem?

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Why don't you come in for a swim?

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Post #: 47
RE: Taking a break from WitP... - 10/1/2005 6:15:19 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

Hi Sarge,

Only prob here is that most of the time the file is not zipped and the out-of-sync still occurs.

Steven


Just so you know, as I recall WitP was built in with a compression/decompression routine. The file are compressed when you save them, and uncompressed (automatically) when you load them.

UV used to use uncompressed files. They were huge. Was -very- annoying to have to zip those things, and then sometimes Hotmail would zonk them...

So as I recall, WitP save games are already compressed (they're certainly smaller than the original UV files, and contain a LOT more data).

But if you're compressing them again, "unexpected results may occurr."

(* shrug *)

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


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Post #: 48
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