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Infantry types?? - 10/1/2005 6:53:26 PM

omegaall

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Just for clarification:

Unless the specific formation has had a special class type added are the following unit classes identical as base classes?

001 - Infantry
029 - Ski Troops
040 - Heavy Infantry
051 - Light Infantry
071 - Guerrilla Forces
072 - Airborne Infantry
073 - Elite Infantry
074 - Bicycle Infantry
101 - Motorized Infantry
099 - Armored Infantry
107 - Scond Line Infantry
108 - Medium Infantry

Or is there some in gane engine differences?
If so what?

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/1/2005 7:38:01 PM

Goblin

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Ski troops are treated more like vehicles. They cannot assault anything.

Guerrilla and Special Forces can infiltrate, and Special Forces can navigate cliff terrain.

Airborne take less suppression from an airdrop.

I think Bicycle infantry can actually be immobilized due to breakdowns, IIRC.

The only difference for Elite and Second Line is elite get an Exp/Morale bonus, and 2nd Line get a penalty.

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 10/1/2005 7:49:14 PM >

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/1/2005 7:49:08 PM

omegaall

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Thanks,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

The only difference for Elite and Second Line is elite get an Exp/Morale bonus, and 2nd Line get a penalty.

Goblin

Is this with respect to units. I am not refering to the class value set at a fornation level in teh OOB editor just the basic unit class.
If Pl formation is set elite yes it gets a exp/moral boost. But that is a different setting to the basic class one.

It gets tricky with special code at the formation level vs class at the unit level. TIt is an OOB issue more than purchace issue.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/1/2005 7:50:36 PM

Goblin

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I see what you mean. There may be no difference between the two then. Or there may be a subtle one I have not noticed.

Goblin

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/1/2005 7:59:58 PM

omegaall

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So Bicycle Infantry seem then to be like vehicles?
A sort of subset of a motorbike then?

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/1/2005 8:11:38 PM

Goblin

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I think, but dunno if they are treated like pack animals, motor vehicles, or something else. I think they can assault, unlike ski-troops, which seems odd to me if they can break down like a vehicle. Of course, I could be in error on the breakdown.

Goblin

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/1/2005 11:34:01 PM

EricDerK�nig (HMB)

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I know I've had Motorcyclists break down (all 8 of them?

), and I think I've had the same occur with Bicyclists, but I'm not so sure with them. I rarely use them.

< Message edited by EricDerK�nig (HMB) -- 10/1/2005 11:35:31 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Infantry types?? - 10/2/2005 12:10:54 AM

Komentaja Nopanen

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I cant understand why Ski Troops cant assault any vehicles? And why it isnt changed (or is it hardcoded?)

If somebody has a sensible explanation to "non-assaultiness" of Ski Troops, please come forward and share it with me.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/2/2005 12:24:06 AM

KG Erwin

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Motorcycle troops are an interesting problem. If you buy them for a long campaign, and then upgrade them to a different infantry type, they lose their transport.

For 8.3, an experiment was done to provide motorcycles as transport vehicles (they are in the Norwegian OOB). In this way, mounted infantry could fight dismounted (as was done in practice). However, recon/spotting ability is lost. As yet, no one was come up with a satisfactory resolution to this problem.

The use of motorcycles as transports, though, DOES resolve the TOE problem of 5cm light mortars as part of a German motorcycle rifle company.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/2/2005 5:11:18 AM

JediMessiah

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havent played with them for awhile, but i believe bicycle troops can be destroyed like a vehicle, 1 shot 1 kill...weird

-jedi

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Post #: 10

RE: Infantry types?? - 10/2/2005 10:05:51 AM

omegaall

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From all this I have the following:

In the game from what I can understand there are the following "Infantry" types or classes as provided in the OOB editor.
I gather that some of these are just a convince for developing formations within the game.

ser____Unit class as per _______inf____basic____spec____veh
_______Unit Page in OOB editor
============================================================
1______Infantry_________________Inf______B
40_____Heavy Infantry___________Inf______B
51_____Light Infantry___________Inf______B
73_____Elite Infantry___________Inf______B
99_____Armored Infantry_________Inf______B
101____Motorized Infantry_______Inf______B
103____Conscripts_______________Inf______B
107____Scond Line Infantry______Inf______B
108____Medium Infantry__________Inf______B
71_____Guerrilla Forces_________Inf______B_______S
72_____Airborne Infantry________Inf______B_______S
106____Marines__________________Inf______B_______S
29_____Ski Troops_______________Inf______________S
58_____Scout____________________Inf______________S
69_____Forward Observer_________Inf______________S
70_____Special Forces___________Inf______________S
49_____Motorcycle_______________Inf______________________V
74_____Bicycle Infantry_________Inf______________________V

My interpretation of these classes is as above.
That is a unit with just a B is a basic infantry unit and are all identical in there game operation. This does not include any �special� code that can be applied in the formation page of the OOB editor.
A unit with just an S has specific abilities applied due to its class alone.
A unit with just a V is possible treated as a form of vehicle, in that it can break down.
Now I suspect that the units marked with a B and an S are either one or the other. And I an not exactly sure which.

Does a basic unit classed as one of these, Guerrilla Forces, Airborne Infantry and Marines have specific abilities as based on just the class alone?
Again I am just looking at the class that is applied in the Unit page/tab of the OOB editor.

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Post #: 11

RE: Infantry types?? - 10/2/2005 8:20:36 PM

Major Destruction

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Guerrilla infantry are 'special' insofar as they can infiltrate.
Airborne infantry reportedly suffer less suppression when they arrive by parachute and therefore can be considered 'special'
Marine infantry has no special attribute that I know of.

Also, Engineer infantry is 'special' because of the minelaying and mine detection ability

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Post #: 12

RE: Infantry types?? - 10/3/2005 2:41:33 AM

Captain Cruft

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Komentaja Nopanen

I cant understand why Ski Troops cant assault any vehicles? And why it isnt changed (or is it hardcoded?)

If somebody has a sensible explanation to "non-assaultiness" of Ski Troops, please come forward and share it with me.

It's hard-coded, as is their snow movement bonus. Why they can't assault is a mystery and possibly goes back to before Matrix had the code.

While they can't assault they can still attack AFVs, if you give them satchel charges for example.

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Post #: 13

RE: Infantry types?? - 10/3/2005 6:11:27 AM

omegaall

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Thanks, clears up that part.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/5/2005 12:00:54 PM

RockinHarry

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AFAIK "Marines" and "Scouts" don�t have special hardcoded abilities. They�re just clones of standard infantry to improve formation granularity. Since you already added special infantry types like "FO�s" and "Motorcycles" ect. I would suggest to consider the "Inf-AT", "Crew" and "MG" classes as well to complement your list. Not to forget "Platoon HQ", "Cavalry" and "Engineers" as well.

Note to Panzer Leo�s H2H mod users: Unit classes in the game are just renamed standard classes. Check the OOB editor for the true nature of classes and names.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/5/2005 12:02:53 PM

RockinHarry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Motorcycle troops are an interesting problem. If you buy them for a long campaign, and then upgrade them to a different infantry type, they lose their transport.

For 8.3, an experiment was done to provide motorcycles as transport vehicles (they are in the Norwegian OOB). In this way, mounted infantry could fight dismounted (as was done in practice). However, recon/spotting ability is lost. As yet, no one was come up with a satisfactory resolution to this problem.

The use of motorcycles as transports, though, DOES resolve the TOE problem of 5cm light mortars as part of a German motorcycle rifle company.

The only solution for the bycicle/motorcyle class problem would be Mike Wood (or anbody else) recoding the whole thing. I don�t think we�ll ever see this happen.

The "utility vehicle" (a truck class clone) classed MC in Norway OOB are just an expedient and can be used in human players hands only. Scenario makers can make best use of the stuff in norway OOB. IE Motorcycle Riders can be given the recon flag in Freds WaW Editors CSV file editor. Giving the "Transports" the Reccon flag makes no sense (attaching binocs to the bikes??)

However in generated campaigns the stuff can�t be used since availability is december 1949 only. I don�t see a major problem if you set availability to range from 1930 to 1949. Don�t have an idea though whether the AI picks (and misuses) any of these units then. Maybe I make this available as Mod over at the Depot.

Reccon alternative (why alternative??) is german cavalry which was standard part of early war german infantry divisions reccon elements! An infantry regiment had the "regimental horse riders platoon" (Infanterie-Reiter-Zug) to its avail, while there was an additional "squadroon" (a company) of horse riders as part of the divisions "Aufkl�rungsabteilung" (Reccon Btl.) available.

Btw, horse transports ("Cavalry Horses") are available in norway OOB too.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/5/2005 4:16:46 PM

Major Destruction

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Scouts and FO's have improved vision. Scouts can 'spot' mines.
Also, small units (with 4 men or less) have improved ability to remain concealed.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/5/2005 7:58:37 PM

omegaall

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Ok first of all what I am trying to do is pinpoint what classes that is unit classes are exact clones of the base infantry class, Class ID #1.

Yes some classes are infantry but they have "extras" that are extensions of the base class. Examples appear to be bicycle Inf, motorbike, ski troops, etc.

There are 113 unit classes in the game many are just clones of a base class. Others have extras to the base class.

What I am doing so far with teh infantry ones is to try to put them into either teh base class or into some "extra" class. The "S" class is just units who have extras but not necessary the same extras.

Some people know what the base class and clones are i am just trying to establish a public list of them.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 10/10/2005 12:52:14 PM

RockinHarry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

Scouts and FO's have improved vision. Scouts can 'spot' mines.

Hm..can�t find a reference anywhere. So a "scout" class unit in a formation with the recon flag (1) set has what improved visibility? Scout spot mines better than engineers? Or rather between infantry and engineers?? Same for FO. Beside decreased delay times for calling in artillery, the formation flag ist set as 1 or 11 as well. What would be the net improved spotting chances?

What about "crew"? I found that replacing the "crewmen" in its hardcoded slot (249) with a different infantry type unit (Ski troops IE) does not affect spawning of troops. Only observed difference is that the spawned crew has the (extra) abilities of the new class. Any idea?

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/25/2005 11:20:21 AM

SiG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Komentaja Nopanen

I cant understand why Ski Troops cant assault any vehicles? And why it isnt changed (or is it hardcoded?)

If somebody has a sensible explanation to "non-assaultiness" of Ski Troops, please come forward and share it with me.

Probably, "assault" supposes that infantrymen are climbing up the enemy tank trying to drop grenades down some hatches or something like that. Obviously you can't do this with your skis on.
Just my 2 (euro)cents

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/25/2005 11:33:41 AM

SiG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JediMessiah

havent played with them for awhile, but i believe bicycle troops can be destroyed like a vehicle, 1 shot 1 kill...weird

-jedi

Not true. I remember having to fight with German FJ against Norvegian bycicle inf. They have to be killed one by one, just like any other infantry type.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/25/2005 4:10:23 PM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SiG

quote:

ORIGINAL: JediMessiah

havent played with them for awhile, but i believe bicycle troops can be destroyed like a vehicle, 1 shot 1 kill...weird

-jedi

Not true. I remember having to fight with German FJ against Norvegian bycicle inf. They have to be killed one by one, just like any other infantry type.

But they can be immobilzed...I shot a Finnish Bicycle unit in a PBEM game once with a T34, and 'disabled' its suspension. For the rest of the game, it sat, in the woods, facing the same direction, incapable of firing outside its frontal arc. I passed it by, laughing.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/25/2005 9:05:48 PM

Puukkoo

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Ski Troops don't assault vehicles but instead 'fire' satchel charges onto vehicle. Their overall effectiveness in tank hunting is not necessarily any worse than that of regular infantry.

The Bicycle infantry is luckily very rare in SPWAW 8.4. They are very hard to hit but they get sometimes destroyed by single mortar hit on the top. As a personal opinion, the bicycles are badly designed in the game. Luckily only few countries use them.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/25/2005 9:38:51 PM

KG Erwin

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On unit-class attributes: I asked Mike Wood if he had a document that listed these. He doesn't. He would have to go thru the entire code to create one, so it isn't forthcoming.

As far as ski troops are concerned, I would agree that it's common sense that they can't close assault -- they would be tossing satchel charges, yes, but I don't think they would take the time to dismount from their skis in order to clamber on top on an enemy AFV.

There were some changes after 8.4, but they are not publically available yet -- as far as testing 8.401 is concerned, the testers have no complaints (that would be me & Alby).

The public release will incorporate further changes, which Michael is still working out. The new mech.exe will probably be called 8.5. Time frame for release is unknown.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/26/2005 12:30:42 AM

Goblin

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Ski troops did not fight from their skis... That would have been suicide. They used the skis as transport, the same as bicycle troops did.

Goblin

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/26/2005 2:17:10 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

Ski troops did not fight from their skis... That would have been suicide. They used the skis as transport, the same as bicycle troops did.

Goblin

Oh, yeah? Check this out:

OriginsThe original Elverumske Skiel�ber Compagnie was first established in 1747, one of three companies (the Elverumske, the Hofske, and the �motske) that formed the S�nnenfjellske batallion of skiborn troops. A 3-company Nordenfjellske ski batallion (consisting of the Holt�lske, Sn�senske, and Mer�rkerske companies) was formed at the same time. The men of the ski batallions were trained and organized as light-infantry soldiers, and were mainly employed on reconaissance and patrol duties. With the coming of the winter snows, however, ski-trained troops acquired great mobility and could, in some respects, function as light cavalry. The men were all conscripts, and remained on the Army List for a period of nine years. After basic recruit training, they were required to report for 12 days' service each year. The company could be speedily mobilised in the event of war. Defeat in 1814 saw the break-up of Denmark-Norway, and the union of Norway with Sweden. After 1814, the new military command considered the ski companies to be of minor importance, and they were disbanded in the period from 1818 to 1826.

(Note: son of a gun -- the pictures didn't print, but these specifically showed the riflemen firing while mounted . Take my word for it -- this IS how they fought.)

Contemporary Drawing by J. Senn ca.1811: "A norwegian ski soldier".

Gr�ner's plate no. II, how to form a firing line.

This tactic was established in the 19th century, so there you go.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/26/2005 2:34:17 AM >

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/26/2005 8:27:00 AM

soldier

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I think some did fight from their skis but not with great sucess

My uncle had a small book on the winter war which i borrowed many years back. It had some commentary by Finnish soldiers on Russian ski troops. I'm pretty sure it said you could tell Russian troops because they would sometimes fight while still on their skis (with terrible results) and would then take their skis off too run away on foot. Sounds like they got it all wrong and apparently their skis were not very good either. Finns considered captured soviet skis were of such poor quality as to only be useful as firewood.

It does sound a lot like the russians (in the above scenario) were probably being ambushed or caught by surprise so maybe the Finns paint a biased picture though. Either way fighting while sking must have been very difficult and risky (not to mention foolish and ultimately an unpopular tactic).

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/26/2005 1:05:22 PM

Puukkoo

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Soviet Ski Brigade was destroyed at Kuhmo in 1940 while it attempted to relieve trapped troops from Finnish pincers. A Siberian Ski Brigade shared same fate in January 1942 as it attempted to hit Finnish flank at Karhum�ki by skiing over the frozen Onega Lake.

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/26/2005 7:59:30 PM

Goblin

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Glenn, did you just post 19th century tactics for troops on skis to prove that 20th century ski troops fought on skis?

It was done, for sure. It was not typical. Hard to seek cover and get up and down quickly when facing machineguns. Great for moving troops, crappy for fighting in (unless you are using muskets and standing up to be shot in line anyways, that is....)

Goblin

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RE: Infantry types?? - 11/26/2005 10:17:20 PM

Puukkoo

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Many people don't believe it to be true that you can actually fight on skis. It is told that when a Finn returned from the winter war first thing he did at home was his wife and after that he took off the skis.

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