Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony?

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Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 8:28:01 AM

GaryChildress

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Which of these is better: Ki-44-IIB Tojo or Ki-61 KAIc Tony? They both come into the game at roughly the same time from what I can tell except that the Tojo is faster and uses a Nakajima engine whereas the Tony is just a little slower and uses a Kawasaki engine.

Seeing how it might be more efficient to convert all engine production to a generic combo of Nakajima and Mitsubishi instead of keeping around some of the other engine types like Kawasaki and seeing how the Tojo is faster, wouldn't it be better just to dispense with the Tony altogether and go with the Tojo instead? Are there any disadvantages to doing so?

edit: This is assuming of course that user defined upgrades has been switched to the ON position.

Gary

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 10/8/2005 8:33:11 AM >

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 8:40:26 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Ki-61 KAIc Tony

Tojo is faster and longer ranged, Tony is better armed. Which do you prefer?

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 10/8/2005 8:41:35 AM >

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 8:41:34 AM

Yamato hugger

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I build 100 total Tonys (to get the reinforcements). The rest is Tojos for the reason you site. Engines. The 2 aircraft are close enough to being the same for me.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 8:50:42 AM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Ki-61 KAIc Tony

Tojo is faster and longer ranged, Tony is better armed. Which do you prefer?

Chez

I heard someone say in forums that the rule of thumb with aircraft is that faster is better, so I assume the Tojo would be preferable to the better armed Tony? Anyone disagree?

Gary

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 9:01:24 AM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

I build 100 total Tonys (to get the reinforcements). The rest is Tojos for the reason you site. Engines. The 2 aircraft are close enough to being the same for me.

So, if I switched off all production of Tonys then I won't get any future reinforcement squadrons which are equipped with Tonys? On the other hand, if I built just, say, 20 Tonys a month or something then wouldn't I still get reinforcement squadrons only many of them just wouldn't be fully fleshed out with planes?

Gary

(in reply to Yamato hugger)

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 9:01:50 AM

Slaughtermayer.

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The Tony with its 2 additional gun strength (14 vs. 12) should be a better plane against unescorted heavy bombers. The Tony is the first fighter available with a gun strength greater than 12.

For what its worth, the Tony was considered a more "advanced" fighter in PacWar, it became available in 3/43 whereas the Tojo became available in 1/43.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 9:03:41 AM

Yamato hugger

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8 mph isnt that big of a deal. Strictly speaking the Tony is better. 1 point more durable and 2 points of firepower. Its disadvantages are its max ceiling is 32k some feet and the Tojo is over 36 (or is it 38?).

But like I said, they are close enough for me and the engines make the difference to me.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 1:12:14 PM

String

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Imho both should be built, with an emphasis on Tonies. The Tony has 1 hex more range, which gives it a 6 hex range. Very desireable as it means it outranges every notable allied fighter until the P38 arrives. This again means that if you can position yourself so that the range between your and an allied airfield is 6 then you can rape the allied airfields with your raids while the allied player can only launch unescorted raids in return.

In addition, 6 hexes is the maximum range which the bombardment force can cover in one phase. Besides I've got the impression from my game that the tony is more durable

But both should be built as the Tojo has an excellent climb rate so it's great for base defence.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 5:48:42 PM

Yamato hugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

I build 100 total Tonys (to get the reinforcements). The rest is Tojos for the reason you site. Engines. The 2 aircraft are close enough to being the same for me.

So, if I switched off all production of Tonys then I won't get any future reinforcement squadrons which are equipped with Tonys? On the other hand, if I built just, say, 20 Tonys a month or something then wouldn't I still get reinforcement squadrons only many of them just wouldn't be fully fleshed out with planes?

Gary

Sorry, didnt see your question. Yes, you have to have enough aircraft in the pool to equip your squadrons. This is why I build about 100 or so.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 6:16:10 PM

Yamato hugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

In addition, 6 hexes is the maximum range which the bombardment force can cover in one phase. Besides I've got the impression from my game that the tony is more durable

But both should be built as the Tojo has an excellent climb rate so it's great for base defence.

A very valid point. Here is my thought on it:

Range is a wonderful thing. It serves 3 purposes for a fighter 1) escort, 2) LRCAP, and 3) air transfer. Lets go into more detail on just how important each of the 3 are

1) Escort Allied strike range is 4 hexes (escorted) until the P-38 comes out. Sonjas range is 3 hexes. Kate, Val, and Judy all have extended ranges of 5 hexes. Of the tac air, only the Jill has 6 hexes range. Sally, Helen both have 10 hex, and Betty/Nell are 11+ hexes. The maximum range an escort can go is 11 hexes (A6M2). Are there any places where you need a 6 hex range to escort as opposed to 5? I dont know the answer to that, there may well could be, I dont know, I am mearly asking. 5 hexes is good enough against incomming CV raids.

I personally dont feel that 1 extra hex is that critical.

2) LRCAP Basically as above.

3) Air transfer. Might take 1 extra day to go somewhere, but then again, that 1 extra day might actually save you some operational losses.

Now the downside: Engines. The Tony is the only aircraft to use the Kawasaki engine. So you can either keep the number of Kawas engine factories the same (I believe its 40) or you have to expand it (either by expanding or taking engines of another type). You cant "mass produce" Tonys with 40 engines a month.

1) Expanding factories You expend HI to expand and 1k supplies per to repair them for use.

2) Conversion of other types This is all well and fine, you have several types that are worthless for production and they would be converted to another type anyway. You have the cost of repair, but you would have this cost regardless of what you convert it to.

The downside of either of these is when the Frank comes out in Apr/44 you have to convert all these to Nakajimas. At 1k supply per plus wait the however number of days for the factories to come online.

Is it worth it? To some people, yes it is. To others (like me) no it isnt. There isnt any right or wrong answer. There is only opinion.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 8:40:16 PM

Nikademus

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If using the stock scenario, you will want to use Tony's. The Tojo will not be able to compete with veteran Allied fighter groups because its gun value is inferior.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 9:42:38 PM

doktorblood

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I build both ... i aim for about 120 Tony and about 180+ Tojo monthly capacity. I don't like to expand Kawasaki engine past the 110 it starts with since Ki-61 is the only plane that uses it. When Tony factories upgrade to Ki-100, it uses Mitsubishi engines.

It all depends on your plan for IJAAF. By early 1943 You have about 30 Sentai of JAAF fighters. Break down how you want this force structured and set production accordingly.

If your want to keep your 1000+ Ki 27 from going away you will need to keep 3 Sentai of them. Assign Ki-27 to Sentai in training or leave the 3 Manchuria Ki-27 Sentai sit there. 1000 ki-27 might come in handy as Kamikaze later.

I want about 4 or 5 Sentai of Oscar II for long range work with it's 8/10 range. The rest into either Tony or Tojo depending on inventory... about 22 or 23 Sentai. Note that 21st Sentai (Ki-27 10/15/42) is eligible for upgrade to Ki-45 Night fighter if you want it to add to the 2 Sentai fo Ki-45a that you get by mid Jan/43. If you want this Sentai as Ki-45, make sure you don't upgrade it to something else.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 10:55:46 PM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

In addition, 6 hexes is the maximum range which the bombardment force can cover in one phase. Besides I've got the impression from my game that the tony is more durable

But both should be built as the Tojo has an excellent climb rate so it's great for base defence.

A very valid point. Here is my thought on it:

Range is a wonderful thing. It serves 3 purposes for a fighter 1) escort, 2) LRCAP, and 3) air transfer. Lets go into more detail on just how important each of the 3 are

1) Escort Allied strike range is 4 hexes (escorted) until the P-38 comes out. Sonjas range is 3 hexes. Kate, Val, and Judy all have extended ranges of 5 hexes. Of the tac air, only the Jill has 6 hexes range. Sally, Helen both have 10 hex, and Betty/Nell are 11+ hexes. The maximum range an escort can go is 11 hexes (A6M2). Are there any places where you need a 6 hex range to escort as opposed to 5? I dont know the answer to that, there may well could be, I dont know, I am mearly asking. 5 hexes is good enough against incomming CV raids.

I personally dont feel that 1 extra hex is that critical.

Bombardment taskforces with CA's

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 11:35:17 PM

Yamato hugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

Bombardment taskforces with CA's

Bettys.

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/8/2005 11:54:05 PM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

Bombardment taskforces with CA's

Bettys.

LRCAP

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/9/2005 12:03:45 AM

Yamato hugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

Bombardment taskforces with CA's

Bettys.

LRCAP

Sorry, should have elaborated. I escort my Bettys with A6M2s. (11 hexes)

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/9/2005 1:51:49 PM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

Bombardment taskforces with CA's

Bettys.

LRCAP

Sorry, should have elaborated. I escort my Bettys with A6M2s. (11 hexes)

But you can't have zeroes everywhere in numbers, and by late 42 early 43 those zeroes will be very outdated and will fall like flies out of the sky...

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/9/2005 3:15:12 PM

m10bob

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I have not seen the stats in the game, but historically the Tojo was an ideal plane for attacking B 29's because it could climb "like a rocket" and saved fuel as it did not need ranging patrols already launched to reach the bombers. (With warning, the Tojo could be at altitude when the bombers arrived.
When the Tojo was teamed with the Raiden, the B 29's had a rough time of it...........

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RE: Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony? - 10/9/2005 5:25:18 PM

Yamato hugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

But you can't have zeroes everywhere in numbers, and by late 42 early 43 those zeroes will be very outdated and will fall like flies out of the sky...

Well that may be true, but I guess I am a traditionalist. I dont mix JN and JA units. Navy fighters protect Navy bombers. I dont use Navy bombers at the point of attack. I use army bombers for that. I use Jacks when they become available, but until then my Navy squadrons use M2s.

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Ki-44-IIB Tojo vs. Ki-61 KAIc Tony?

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