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Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons?

 
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Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/9/2005 5:07:25 PM   
Magua

 

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We all have this perception, thanks to Hollywood, and after-action reports (of questionable reliability) that every other paratrooper in Normandy carried a Thompson submachinegun. Well, maybe not every other, but a lot. So I've been doing some research in the matter, and though I have been unable to find a definitive description of what the airborne infantry carried into battle, I've dug up some info that is revealing, andd I would like to share it here.

It's helpful to first look at the table of organization for an airborne platoon in Normandy. Until December 1944, the official organization for a paratrooper platoon was two rifle squads and a mortar squad. The TO&E for the rifle squads included: One man armed with a Thompson submachinegun, 10 riflemen armed with M-1 Garand rifles (or carbines) and a machine gunner with a 30-caliber 1914 machinegun. Since each squad had its own integral 30-caliber machinegun section, a BAR was not assigned. (Mark mentions this at least once in the rules, though we do see an occasional BAR sneaking into a couple of the scenarios). The platoon leader also had two additional 30-caliber machinegun teams to deploy at his discretion.

The two-squad organization was disliked by airborne platoon commanders who would have preferred the greater flexibility of three rifle squads, and ultimately by December 1944 the airborne platoon was reorganized along the lines of the standard Army rifle platoon.

In practice however, things were a bit different. American soldiers had a long tradition of scrounging, and given that weapons of any type were plentiful in the American army, all squad types, including airborne squads tended to vary somewhat in their actual armament makeup. So, how can we determine what the average airborne rifle squad might have looked like on June 6, 1944? What sorts of data are available?

Certainly, there are after-action reports such as those compiled by Stephen Ambrose and S.L.A. Marshall, that provide some insight. Unfortunately, few of these go into any great detail regarding the makeup of the average airborne rifle squad, and eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. So, I used the best source available to me, photographs. I would review every photograph I could find of American paratroopers taken just before D-Day, and those on the ground in Normandy just after.

Even though photographs don’t lie, or at least they didn’t back then, the captions often do, and I wanted to be confident that the data was robust as possible. So I had to adopt some research guidelines. First, in order for a photo to be included in the data set, there had to be something in its content that allowed reasonable certainty that it was a true D-Day airborne photo. Second, the type of weapon carried by the paratroopers in the photo had to be unambiguous. Any photo that could not meet both of these criteria was not included in the study.

My data sources included: my library, the internet, and local bookstores. In all, I was able to identify the weapon carried by 86 paratroopers in 63 photos.

Here's the inventory:

44 carried M-1 Garand rifles
22 carried Carbines
20 carried Thompson submachineguns

I also saw three .30 cal. machinegun teams. I did not see a single BAR, nor did I see a single mortar team.

So, from this study we can surmise that about 25% (3) of the paratroopers in an average airborne squad in Normandy, carried a Thompson. We can also conclude that none carried a BAR.

Now, I have not done a similar study of American footsloggers in Normandy. However, I have seen and read that one or both of the soldiers in the two-man scout section of the squad were often armed with Thompsons, and so often, did the NCO. If so, the percentage of men carrying automatic as opposed to semi-automatic weapons in an airborne squad, was in practice not very different than the standard infantry squad.

In BoH game terms this suggests that the standard rifle squad in Normandy could have the same FP as an airborne squad. Let’s put it this way. Looking at the numbers alone, the FP of an American 12-man infantry squad with 2–3 Thompsons should be the same (2) as the 12-man airborne squad with approximately three Thompsons. I don’t think an average difference of one Thompson would make a 50% difference in the firepower of these two types. I assume that, in addition to the raw numbers, there were other considerations that went into the calculation of the FP factors in BoH.

Ultimately, I always find it interesting to see how accurate or inaccurate our assumptions can be, and how rewarding it can be to feel more comfortable about these assumptions after doing even a very simple research exercise.

This post is not intended to be the end-all of information on this subject. I’m hoping that some of you might have some insight and perhaps more data to share.
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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/9/2005 6:18:45 PM   
Hard Sarge


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interesting Idea

but carry it father

how many Germen troops carried the MP38/MP40 ,if we go by movies or what people tend to think, every one of them did, while the K-98 was still the main arm for the Germen army

from some of what I have seen on some TV shows on the Paras, the M1 Carbine was very Pop with the troops, lite and small

not really surpriseing to see not many BAR's, I carried the BAR, I wouldn't want to jump out of a plane with one (but in the interest of firepower, I am sure many poor souls, did end up jumping with them also)

but, Pic's may not really be a good source of data for this kind of thing, if I go back though my Pics, I don't think I have a single one of me with a M-79, but I carried that for a while, also don't think I got any of me and a M-203, even though I carried that even longer, M-16s, M-14s and 45s I got a lot of shots of (and for the most Part, I wasn't suppost to carry a 45)

good luck on the hunt



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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/9/2005 7:05:23 PM   
Magua

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

interesting Idea

but carry it father

how many Germen troops carried the MP38/MP40 ,if we go by movies or what people tend to think, every one of them did, while the K-98 was still the main arm for the Germen army


That's true, and if we look at it in game terms the standard American Rifle squad should be much closer in FP strength to an airborne squad (2) than to a German rifle squad (1).

quote:

from some of what I have seen on some TV shows on the Paras, the M1 Carbine was very Pop with the troops, lite and small

not really surpriseing to see not many BAR's, I carried the BAR, I wouldn't want to jump out of a plane with one (but in the interest of firepower, I am sure many poor souls, did end up jumping with them also)


They did later on, in Holland and after. I think not including a BAR in the TO&E was more a product of the fact that the squad already had an integral 1919A4 machinegun.

quote:

but, Pic's may not really be a good source of data for this kind of thing, if I go back though my Pics, I don't think I have a single one of me with a M-79, but I carried that for a while, also don't think I got any of me and a M-203, even though I carried that even longer, M-16s, M-14s and 45s I got a lot of shots of (and for the most Part, I wasn't suppost to carry a 45)


Like you, I'll bet more than a few paras with Thompsons weren't intended to have them either. That's what makes this kind of info so tough to nail down. Ideally, we could find a document somewhere that gave specifics, but I doubt one exists. In the absence of anything else, photos were the best thing I could find. Of course, as you point out, they are just a snapshot in time. As you stated, and we saw in Band of Brothers, in the course of a day, a trooper's primary weapon could change. Lipton lost his M-1 in the jump, picked up an MP-38, and later a Carbine. Winters went from an M-1, to a knife, to a Kar-98, and finally back to an M-1. However, for the most part, that by the end of the day, I'd bet that American paras in Normandy ended up with the weapon they jumped with.

But what you want to do is amass as big a data set as possible to minimize these anomalies. And you want to avoid the anecdotal evidence as much as possible, or at least be careful not to give it more weight than it deserves.

Also, by confining the parameter of the study to the time just before and just after D-Day we hope to minimize data fluctuations over time. I'm only looking at the weapon makeup of the squads during the few weeks covered by BoH, and not what they carried at other times.

Thanks for the comments.

< Message edited by Magua -- 10/9/2005 7:08:19 PM >

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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/24/2005 10:00:59 PM   
old man of the sea


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Weapons listed in TO&E of a parachute regiment in 1942 was 154 Submachineguns, 495 carbines, 1173 garands, and 132 light .30 cal machineguns.

In 1944 it changed to 54 Submachineguns, 1098 carbines, 886 garands, and 132 light .30 cal machineguns.

There are a number of reasons for the change,

#1 was the addition of a third rifle squad to each platoon
#2 was the addition of a glider regiment

Therefore, there where 100 extra Thompsons up for grabs, I doubt anyone took them away or just tossed them. You also need to think about the grease gun that was coming into service, so that not all the submachineguns in a parachute regiment, especialy after late 1944 where thompsons.

There are no BAR's in the table of organization.

E



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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/25/2005 5:03:55 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magua

This post is not intended to be the end-all of information on this subject. I’m hoping that some of you might have some insight and perhaps

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Sarge -- 8/20/2016 10:36:30 PM >


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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/26/2005 3:17:41 AM   
Magua

 

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Hey Sarge!

Is that your grandfather? And he's got what looks like his folding stock carbine slung over his shoulder. That's a great pic. Does he remember where it was taken exactly?

What you say he has told you about the Thompsons is very revealing. It implies that weapon assignment was determined by rank. Assuming that a certain number of Thompsons were assigned to each company, the COs and NCOs got first choice, and then any left could go to the lower ranks, or possibly assigned by the COs and NCOs to certain soldiers. That's interesting, and explains the rather informal distribution.

What he says about the BARs is interesting too. Though I have never seen a photo that could be verified as having been taken in Normandy of a trooper with a BAR. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if he was right on the money, but that most of those canisters fell into the flooded areas or were otherwise lost.

Thanks Sarge. Got anymore pics?

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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/26/2005 5:39:38 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magua

Hey Sarge!

Is that your grandfather? And he's got what looks like his folding stock carbine slung over his shoulder. That's a great pic. Does he remember where it was taken exactly?


O








< Message edited by Sarge -- 8/20/2016 10:35:47 PM >


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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/27/2005 3:47:33 AM   
Magua

 

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Well, that pic is a great piece of history, and I'm gald you and your grandfather had time together to talk about it.

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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/27/2005 8:53:09 PM   
Sarge


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Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Sarge -- 8/20/2016 10:32:24 PM >


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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/27/2005 9:04:14 PM   
Sarge


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Here is a good map of the drop zones and flooding at Utah .




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RE: Did all paratroopers carry Thompsons? - 10/27/2005 9:22:29 PM   
Sarge


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Another map of the "PLANED" Utah drops.
zone).

Edit: the red circle is the area photo above



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Sarge -- 8/20/2016 10:35:10 PM >


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