Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim

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Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 1:20:27 PM

puresimmer

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OK, given the huge interest in real players with the newer PureSimmers out there, I have spent the last 2 days working on improving the real player experience in PureSim (Besides fixing a few minor bugs).

Here are some of the things I have done:

* Modified real player import algorithms to import more real players. Players being imported that had severly limited playing time will be penalized in regards to their ratings (Many of them simply would not be imported in previous versions so this greatly increases the number of real players imported, you will rarely see fictional players in replay associations now).

* Modified real player algorithm for calculating the SPEED rating. Players were stealing too many bases.

* Improved algorithms used when assigning potential ratings to real players

* When using real players the game no longer displays a fictional region on the player card, it will attempt to find the region in the data stored in the Lahman database (Lahman has birth place info for many players)

Now to my question. I am looking at adding a section to the player card that lists the players stats from real life. Now, say you are doing a replay and you start in 1999. I have Lahman data all the way up to 2004, so would you rather me display everything I have or only show Lahman historical data up to the current year of your replay? I am leaning towards showing all, but I just wanted to see what you guys think.

I think this next update will really be nice for those of you who prefer to play with real players exclusively (and that seems to be a growing lot since the move to Matrix)

< Message edited by puresimmer -- 10/9/2005 1:21:12 PM >

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 2:30:01 PM

DandricSturm

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All that sounds good.

quote:

Now to my question. I am looking at adding a section to the player card that lists the players stats from real life. Now, say you are doing a replay and you start in 1999. I have Lahman data all the way up to 2004, so would you rather me display everything I have or only show Lahman historical data up to the current year of your replay? I am leaning towards showing all, but I just wanted to see what you guys think.

I would prefer to see all. I'm assuming this would be viewable from a button like the game log button? It seems like it would be distracting if I'm trying to immerse myself in puresim to see a player's "real" stats displayed prominently.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 3:32:04 PM

puresimmer

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Its going to be under the current stats on the card, with a show/hide toggle (defaulting to not be displayed).

Here's how it looks when the user clicks show/hide to display it:

Attachment (1)

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 3:36:10 PM

DandricSturm

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Perfect

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 4:51:54 PM

StyxNCa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer

OK, given the huge interest in real players with the newer PureSimmers out there, I have spent the last 2 days working on improving the real player experience in PureSim (Besides fixing a few minor bugs).

Here are some of the things I have done:

* Modified real player import algorithms to import more real players. Players being imported that had severly limited playing time will be penalized in regards to their ratings (Many of them simply would not be imported in previous versions so this greatly increases the number of real players imported, you will rarely see fictional players in replay associations now).

* Modified real player algorithm for calculating the SPEED rating. Players were stealing too many bases.

* Improved algorithms used when assigning potential ratings to real players

* When using real players the game no longer displays a fictional region on the player card, it will attempt to find the region in the data stored in the Lahman database (Lahman has birth place info for many players)

Now to my question. I am looking at adding a section to the player card that lists the players stats from real life. Now, say you are doing a replay and you start in 1999. I have Lahman data all the way up to 2004, so would you rather me display everything I have or only show Lahman historical data up to the current year of your replay? I am leaning towards showing all, but I just wanted to see what you guys think.

I think this next update will really be nice for those of you who prefer to play with real players exclusively (and that seems to be a growing lot since the move to Matrix)

I, for one, vote for showing stats only up to the year of the replay. However this gets into another issue if, like me, someone runs fictional leagues with real players, cuz when I draft players I do like the total career stats. Oh well, I guess whichever way you decide to go will be fine to me. I am glad you're adding the real stats, in any form.

BTW, thanks alot for the effort on the real player import.

< Message edited by StyxNCa -- 10/9/2005 4:54:09 PM >

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 5:53:01 PM

donkuchi19

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I think that I would prefer showing stats only up to the current season. It might be confusing to run a league showing stats from 2002 when you are only in 1999.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 6:06:44 PM

puresimmer

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It actually ends up ok because they are hidden by default.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 7:47:00 PM

sd5175

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If it does not affect career totals from the year you start to sim, showing all years would be better.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/9/2005 9:00:43 PM

kisner

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While on subject of improvements: Can you add ability to delete unwanted associations from one of the basic menus?

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/10/2005 7:04:08 AM

DandricSturm

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That option was available in some of the earliest PureSim versions so it would probably be possible. I just delete unwanted .psa files.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/10/2005 2:09:30 PM

puresimmer

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It will be in the next update. Sort of silly that I never put it in this version before :)

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/10/2005 7:21:57 PM

kisner

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The way I would like to be able to use PureSim is to create a league along these lines:

1. Seed a league with real players in 1900.

2. Play a season, and then move on to 1901, using real players from 1901.

3. Repeat until 2005 season is finished.

Can I do this in PureSim? I know I can play individual real seasons, but can I string together seasons of a fantasy league using real players and real stats? Goal would be to have career stats and ability to trade players in an ahistorical fashion.

One "problem" with a league like this is the ability to trade for players you know will become stars. As such, it would also be cool if a player's changes in ability after he joins the league are somewhat random -- that is, George Brett is not guaranteed to be a star any more than Mark Fidrych is guaranteed to be a flame-out.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/10/2005 10:35:00 PM

Amaroq

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kisner, the way that works in the game is as follows:

Seed the league with the 1901 players. (Its the first year with 16 teams and both N.L. and A.L., so its the best 'starting point' for what you're looking to do.)

When the year ticks over to 1902, all of the roster changes - trades, free agency, whatever - that you have seen from your fictional season will be in place. All real players who made their MLB debut in 1902 will be available in the amateur draft. They will get drafted onto ahistorical teams.

quote:

One "problem" with a league like this is the ability to trade for players you know will become stars. As such, it would also be cool if a player's changes in ability after he joins the league are somewhat random -- that is, George Brett is not guaranteed to be a star any more than Mark Fidrych is guaranteed to be a flame-out.

That is precisely what PureSim does: the player is given 'current ability' based on his ability in the year he joined the league, and 'potential ability' based on the height of his career... but the actual development he makes from year-to-year is done 'fictionally' based on his potential, his playing time (in game), what level he was at, etc., rather than matching his true career development.

So George Brett might never develop, might develop into a marginal player, might develop into a career starter, might develop into a Hall of Famer, or might even develop into a Hall of Fame slugger... you don't know. And in fact, if you try to trade based on 'knowledge' of what is 'supposed to happen', you may be shooting yourself in the foot... I remember one game where I stubbornly stuck with a Ty Cobb who just wasn't developing because I 'knew' he was Hall of Fame material... and in this game never became more than a third or fourth outfielder. I was particularly embittered because I'd kept him in preference to three outfielders I hadn't heard of who 'looked better' to me, but I'd never heard of in real life... all three went on to Hall of Fame careers with computer teams who recognized their talents!

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/10/2005 10:38:01 PM

Amaroq

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Shaun, in answer to your question, I would personally want to see the player's stats from only the years prior to the start of his PureSim career.

Perhaps that's something you should put in an 'option' somewhere, and let people specify the default behavior on a freshly opened player card, as I'm sure the 'show me always' crowd will be annoyed with having to toggle 'show' every time they open the player card.

Options would be something like:
- Hide real-life stats
- Show real-life stats from prior to initial draft underneath PureSim stats
- Show real-life stats from prior to initial draft as though they were PureSim stats
- Show full real-life career

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/10/2005 11:26:42 PM

kisner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

quote:

When the year ticks over to 1902, all of the roster changes - trades, free agency, whatever - that you have seen from your fictional season will be in place. All real players who made their MLB debut in 1902 will be available in the amateur draft. They will get drafted onto ahistorical teams.

That sounds great, just what I want. Since the manual makes no mention of this, I assumed it switched over to fictional newcomers. The rulebook mentions drafting high school and college players (in section 8.1.4) during the off-season. Does these mean we're drafting guys like George Brett out of high school, and watching them develop in the minors for 4 or more years?

< Message edited by kisner -- 10/10/2005 11:29:28 PM >

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/10/2005 11:52:01 PM

KG Erwin

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Using real players in an "alternate universe" goes right along with the typical wargamers' desire to balance history with the "what-if" factor.

Thanks for paying attention to the demographics of playing styles, Shaun. For me, it's been great to learn the attributes of lesser-known old-time players, and it keeps a "real-world" flavor in the game.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/11/2005 2:19:34 AM

Amaroq

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quote:

Does these mean we're drafting guys like George Brett out of high school, and watching them develop in the minors for 4 or more years?

No, I'm afraid it doesn't - I've been campaigning for that, actually. They show up in your association on the year that they made their big-league debut at the age that they made their big-league debut.

The 8.20 implementation of historical players (I haven't played Gold 1.0 yet) worked very well with 35-man rosters, as all of the players are reasonably well balanced against each other.

With 50- to 60-man rosters, however, the first year or two of historical players works with the big-league players well balanced against each other, and a bunch of scrubs filling out the minor-league system. By about the fourth year, all of the major- and minor- league roster spots are full of 'real' players - all of whom are historically 'supposed to' be in the bigs. So by the time you are 15 years in, you're seeing the following: Players who made their big-league debut in 1915 would be available in the amateur draft, but their attributes would be relatively close to minor-leaguer attributes - which is usually right, very few players dominate the league in their first season. Unfortunately, by the time they've "developed" into big league quality, its 2-4 years down the line... so their careers are artificially 'shorter' than they ought to be. I rather imagine this effect is magnified with the expanded minor-league rosters.

They way I'd like it to work is for the game to 'assume' a 3-year minor-league development period for most players. For example, if my player is supposed to make his 'big league debut' in 1915, I'd like for the game to make him available to an amateur draft that happens before the 1912 season - obviously downgraded so that he has potential, but shouldn't be able to contribute much at the moment. Theoretically, he'll develop over a couple of years, and he may make his PureSim big-league debut anywhere from 1914 to 1917, and he'll be at 'big league quality' by the time he does so.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/11/2005 2:32:18 AM

playball335

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Could we have the option somewhere to clear all season/career stats after importing? I like to run a custom league that uses the real players as a base, yet start everyone fresh (statistically) in my league.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/11/2005 2:38:18 AM

puresimmer

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That is exactly how the game works :)

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/13/2005 9:31:03 PM

besbol

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Would anyone out there like to see options to do the following:

1. Manage a real player team for multiple years and have Puresim reimport players every year so that rosters come close to reflecting the actual players for every year of the sim. The players ratings would also be changed to reflect their actual performance for each year. This would also make it much easier to set up a league where you are trying to duplicate a player's career, e.g. Cal Ripken

2. For those micromanagers that want to keep their rosters as accurate as possible, how about a way to force trades that actually happened in historical sims.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/13/2005 11:22:24 PM

Amaroq

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You stumble into a 'what's game-y about this?' problem... if viewed from the "Its a GM game" perspective (sorry, Steely Glint, I don't mean to get you started on that again!), there's "nothing to do" in a league where all of the player movement, progression, aging, retirement, and trades are pre-ordained by 'history'. (That's the logic behind why Shaun hasn't implemented it so far.)

Maybe the answer to that question is "It becomes a Manager/replay game, focusing on in-game management, chosing the starting lineup(s), substitutions, strategy, etc." Alternately, you could 'let it play' without 'owning' a team, learning about teams, players, and baseball history as you go.

In that sense, if Shaun were to add it, I would probably try it out, but it isn't something I'd clamour for personally.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/14/2005 3:17:48 AM

KG Erwin

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Amaroq, my viewpoint is different -- I have no desire to crunch numbers from year to year in the GM mode -- that seems too sterile. I may be in a minority, but I want to do it ALL, including being the manager in-game.

Pure Sim is getting very close to everything I ever wanted in a baseball sim -- more functionality for real players suits my personal preferences, as I think that the game SHOULD be an educational tool. The best wargames do that, and I extend this philosophy to sports games, especially those that want to get some depth into the worlds they create.

Recreating history "note for note" is NOT what we're after. We want to recreate the spirit and the feel of the given era, and then play with the alternatives. THIS is what is educational, as the player is given alternate paths within the context of the time period.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/14/2005 7:39:04 AM

Steely Glint

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Amaroq, my viewpoint is different -- I have no desire to crunch numbers from year to year in the GM mode -- that seems too sterile. I may be in a minority, but I want to do it ALL, including being the manager in-game.

Kampfgruppe, you're by no means in a minority; the GM-only crowd is the minority.

PureSim should sim all of the strategic aspects of the game - owner, GM, and manager - and one day it will.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/14/2005 7:46:22 AM

Steely Glint

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq
there's "nothing to do" in a league where all of the player movement, progression, aging, retirement, and trades are pre-ordained by 'history'.

We clearly live on different planets, because there's EVERYTHING to do - all the important stuff. Select and juggle lineups, select rotation, handle the pitching staff, make substiutions, make the vital in-game decisions (pinch hit or not? infield in or not? do I let him pitch one more inning or pull him now? give him the steal sign or not?), etc., etc., etc.

The GM only exists to hand the manager the tools with which he is to win games.

As Whitey Herzog would tell you, "You're missing a great game."

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/14/2005 3:31:30 PM

BataBabys

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This game is all about being a Gm and Manager. For me its all about using real players starting in 1901 to present and seeing how many Championships i can win with the least amount of money spent. I just wish there was a screen that compared how associations did against each other. Like with any game the goal is trying to better your last score isnt it?

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/14/2005 10:20:51 PM

Amaroq

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quote:

We clearly live on different planets, because there's EVERYTHING to do - all the important stuff. Select and juggle lineups, select rotation, handle the pitching staff, make substiutions, make the vital in-game decisions (pinch hit or not? infield in or not? do I let him pitch one more inning or pull him now? give him the steal sign or not?), etc., etc., etc.

The GM only exists to hand the manager the tools with which he is to win games.

As Whitey Herzog would tell you, "You're missing a great game."

Steely, I think you have me pigeonholed, and I feel like you respond to one or two lines out of my posts rather than viewing my post as a whole.

besbol asked "what about these 2 options?"

I explained why, if somebody were designing a GM-only game, they might consider there to be nothing to do, as the features he was inquiring about remove the things that a GM would control - and explained that that was the logic, dating from the origins of PureSim, when there were no in-game management options - behind why they aren't already in the game.

In the very next paragraph, I touched on all of the things you outlined in your post, as, SINCE that decision was made, PureSim has added in-game-management options.

In neither case was I espousing my personal belief or view - I did that in my third paragraph: I'd play it if it was implemented, to see if I enjoyed it, but it wouldn't be a seeling point or a fail-to-sell point for me, personally.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/16/2005 5:54:50 PM

Steely Glint

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Good lord, a perfectly logical response. Plus we actually agreed on something the other day.

The times they are a-changin'.

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RE: Improving the Real Player Experience in PureSim - 10/19/2005 2:00:07 AM

Amaroq

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*busting up laughing*

They must be, at that!

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