Slitherine

quote:


Since the Japanese did have a large undefended "flak gap" against level bombers IRL any weapons data change which corrects this deficiency is pure bunk and doesn't deserve inclusion in a historical simulation.

quote:

Before we get too bent out of shape here we might consider that there is historical justification for this AA gap ... to wit the B29 strikes where reconfigured to go in at low altitudes in part to exploit this suspected gap

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

There were more factors than just the jet stream ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

From roughly Oct 42 onwards there should be no "flak gap" for the 5"/38 in any case with the introduction of the VT proximity fuze. This particular fuze exploded the AA shell at the closest point of approach to an enemy aircraft due to a radar transponder in the fuze itself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: worr

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

There were more factors than just the jet stream ...

Yes, but high altittude ack wasn't one of them.

LeMay was worried about ack at low altititude. But bombing accuracy at high alt was not acceptable.

Worr, out

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Since the Japanese did have a large undefended "flak gap" against level bombers IRL any weapons data change which corrects this deficiency is pure bunk and doesn't deserve inclusion in a historical simulation. As it is the Allies are deprived of their real life remedy for this deficiency. Murderous as Allied flak can be in the game it should be even more so given their technical edge;which, in effect multiplied the number of guns firing by decreasing the number of shells required to destroy an enemy aircraft by at least half.

quote:


Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 84


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
365 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 89


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
437 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 4
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 88


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 20 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Sata, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
670 casualties reported
Guns lost 28

Port hits 11
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
265 casualties reported
Guns lost 13

Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
19 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 83


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
399 casualties reported
Guns lost 19

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 54


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
77 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

The devastation of ships in port is enormous... it's like shooting duck in a bathtub.. the only (possibly) good thing is that night time attack produced "only" 3 hits...


Note that Japanese AAA units consist of:

Heavy AA Rgt (5 units used):

105mm AA Gun x12
75mm AA Gun x12
13 mm AAMG (2) x 8


Thus there were (in total):

105mm AA Gun x60
75mm AA Gun x60
13 mm AAMG (2) x40

This is _TREMENDOUS_ number of muzzle power and large and relatively slow bombers flying at 10000 ft (= 3000 m = 3 km) should be easy easy targets...

quote:


The B-17 instead of B-29 this time.


Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

Then I loaded WitP DataBase Editor and changed 444th and 462nd US Army airgroup aircraft in "AirGroup" tab from 201 - "B-29 Superfortress" to 195 - "B-17G fortress".

After that I went to "Aircraft" tab and changed endurance of "B-17G fortress" to 1000 (in order for them to reach target).

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-17G's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90.

The B-17G's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-17G's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).


5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-17G Fortress x 96


Allied aircraft losses
B-17G Fortress: 1 destroyed, 30 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
516 casualties reported
Guns lost 19

Port hits 9
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-17G Fortress x 94


Allied aircraft losses
B-17G Fortress: 19 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
261 casualties reported
Guns lost 14

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 4
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-17G Fortress x 94


Allied aircraft losses
B-17G Fortress: 26 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Sata, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
214 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

Port hits 1
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
32 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-17G Fortress x 71


Allied aircraft losses
B-17G Fortress: 10 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sata, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
407 casualties reported
Guns lost 18

Port hits 5
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-17G Fortress x 93


Allied aircraft losses
B-17G Fortress: 3 destroyed, 20 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sata, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
459 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
30 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
24 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-17G Fortress x 63


Allied aircraft losses
B-17G Fortress: 11 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
42 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-17G Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


Discussion:

Like with B-29's the B-17G-s brought similar (i.e. _BIG_) devastation to ships... all my comments I did in case of B-29's are again applicable here...

Please note that B-29 carries 40x 500 lb bombs while B-17G carries 12x 500 lb bombs.

quote:


The B-25 instead of B-29 this time.


Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

Then I loaded WitP DataBase Editor and changed 444th and 462nd US Army airgroup aircraft in "AirGroup" tab from 201 - "B-29 Superfortress" to 185 - "B-25C Mitchell".

After that I went to "Aircraft" tab and changed endurance of "B-25C Mitchell" to 1000 (in order for them to reach target).

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-25C's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90.

The B-25C's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-25C's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).


5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 91


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 8 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sata, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
566 casualties reported
Guns lost 19

Port hits 12
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
22 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 95


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
404 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
7 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 93


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 2
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
360 casualties reported
Guns lost 14

Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 96


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed, 12 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 5, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 2
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
471 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Port hits 11
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
47 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
46 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 94


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed, 10 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
470 casualties reported
Guns lost 14

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
46 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
35 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 63


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
117 casualties reported
Guns lost 9

Port hits 1
Port fuel hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


Discussion:

Like with B-29's the B-25C's brought similar (i.e. _BIG_) devastation to ships... all my comments I did in case of B-29's are again applicable here... perhaps what is interesting is to note that B-25C's were deadlier than B-17G's...

Please note that B-29 carries 40x 500 lb bombs while B-25C carries 6x 500 lb bombs.

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub
What is the point of these posts again?

That out of 3000 bombs that there were at most 100 hits against ships that were in an area of some 200,000 square meters?

Or the flak results?

quote:


The only thing about the flak results that I can say is a paraphrase of a quote that recollect from a Japanese AA commander. In short, he said that they were basically just firing to make the brass happy; as they rarely saw any effect from their fire. I believe that some of the factors that were mentioned were bad quality of both shells and fusing, inability to get good range/height estimation of the targets and rate of fire was low. Finally, regarding the 29 specifically, the speed of the plane and the relatively dispersed formations made the nature of the flak much different than the European version vs. the 17. If the German flak was an animal, it would be a grizzly bear; 10 feet long and weighing in at at 1000 kilos. The Japanese flak would be somewhat like a little black bear; 6-7 feet long and 300 kilos. Anti-air defense was not a big forte' of the Japanese.

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub
What is the point of these posts again?

That out of 3000 bombs that there were at most 100 hits against ships that were in an area of some 200,000 square meters?

Or the flak results?

The only point and emphasis are FLAK results.

quote:


The only thing about the flak results that I can say is a paraphrase of a quote that recollect from a Japanese AA commander. In short, he said that they were basically just firing to make the brass happy; as they rarely saw any effect from their fire. I believe that some of the factors that were mentioned were bad quality of both shells and fusing, inability to get good range/height estimation of the targets and rate of fire was low. Finally, regarding the 29 specifically, the speed of the plane and the relatively dispersed formations made the nature of the flak much different than the European version vs. the 17. If the German flak was an animal, it would be a grizzly bear; 10 feet long and weighing in at at 1000 kilos. The Japanese flak would be somewhat like a little black bear; 6-7 feet long and 300 kilos. Anti-air defense was not a big forte' of the Japanese.

I think we must first "dissect" what we are talking about here... in other words what were the threats opposing sides faced and how they tried to counter it...


USA

USN was facing Kamikaze threat and to counter it (and other air threats) the so-called "VT Fuse" AA shells were created.

They were great and did miracles!

Kamikaze attacks were predominantly single (of couple) aircraft coming from _DIFFERENT_ altitudes at _VARIOUS_ angles in dive and using _VARIABLE_ speeds.

Such attacks were almost impossible to counter without "VT Fuse" shells.


Germany and Japan

Germany and Japan were predominantly faced with day/night attacks by huge bomber groups.

Those bombers (i.e. subgroups inside bigger bomber groups) attacked at _CONSTANT_ altitudes, _CONSTANT_ speeds and _CONSTANT_ headings.

The problems facing German/Japanese AA was thus totally different from the one that was facing USN.

To counter it thousands of AA guns were used.

The most widely used tactics was to fire as fast as possible and as much as possible shells at selected altitude and thus create "curtain" or "cloud" of FLAK into which bombers would fly into. Thherefore the huge concentration of explosions at certain area in the sky would most certainly damage/destroy bombers that would pass through it (it's the law of probability).

BTW, for this to happen accurate altitude, heading and speed measurements were needed on enemy bombers which was not problem in good visibility at day but more problematic at night or when cloud cover was present.

Japanese with their lack in radar technology in most part had to relay on this tactics alone.

Germans on, other hand, had more options. Their "Freya" long rage radars would give the overall picture and "Wurzburg" radars would guide individual AA batteries on individual (or small groups) of enemy bombers with great success. Germans also used "Wurzburg" radars to guide coupled search lights during the night (and then illuminate targets to non-radar equipped AA batteries).


So... what this all means you may ask?

Well... in broad daylight and in clear weather the Japanese _HAD_ their chance of accurately judging incoming bomber altitude, heading and speed and thus it would be rather easy to raise the "curtain" or "cloud" of FLAK into which enemy bombers would fly into.


The tests I listed were all done in daylight and in perfect clear weather.

US B-29, B-17 and B-25 bombers were flying at lowly 10000 ft (3000m = 3 km).


Don't you think results of Japanese FLAK were way way too insignificant then?


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11


USN was facing Kamikaze threat and to counter it (and other air threats) the so-called "VT Fuse" AA shells were created.

They were great and did miracles!

Kamikaze attacks were predominantly single (of couple) aircraft coming from _DIFFERENT_ altitudes at _VARIOUS_ angles in dive and using _VARIABLE_ speeds.

Such attacks were almost impossible to counter without "VT Fuse" shells.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Don't you think results of Japanese FLAK were way way too insignificant then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
this seems not only to be a problem of the impact of Japanese flak but rather with not enough AA guns in the game as part of AA units (a TOE/OOB question):

Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
this seems not only to be a problem of the impact of Japanese flak but rather with not enough AA guns in the game as part of AA units (a TOE/OOB question):

Very interesting. Are you interested in summarising what you believe needs fixing in the OOBs (unit arrivals etc.) and the TO&Es? Or is is just what you have already posted? It might be possible for something to be done for inclusion in CHS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

The worst thing about all this damn AA thing is that it´s now spoken about at the forum! . I didn´t know that, as two of my PBEM opponents didn´t know that too. Since it is discussed at the forum those two are bombing every Japanese target at 6000 feet with their bombers. Before that, they came in at 15.000 - 25000 feet too avoid flak (but in fact lost more planes than attacking at 6000). This sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

The worst thing about all this damn AA thing is that it´s now spoken about at the forum! . I didn´t know that, as two of my PBEM opponents didn´t know that too. Since it is discussed at the forum those two are bombing every Japanese target at 6000 feet with their bombers. Before that, they came in at 15.000 - 25000 feet too avoid flak (but in fact lost more planes than attacking at 6000). This sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sorry but this simply had to be told...


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

- MIN timing of shell fuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

- MIN timing of shell fuse

I am sure some wag will say MIN timing = 0. Not that i would ever say it, but i am sure someone would...

Of course, this MIN timing might have some adverse effects on the AA gun crews!!

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

- MIN timing of shell fuse

I am sure some wag will say MIN timing = 0. Not that i would ever say it, but i am sure someone would...

Of course, this MIN timing might have some adverse effects on the AA gun crews!!

BTW, I think I remember that I once read that famous German FLAK 88mm had MIN time fusing 2 or 3 seconds for anti-aircraft shell but I am not 100% sure of that and I can't find where I read it right now (the exit velocity of that gun was around 900 m/s)...


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub

3 second fusing would be right about where the current system has it at; 2 seconds still has the min height at 5500 feet or so based on these numbers.

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE