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Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 4:56:22 PM

tsimmonds

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At arrival, IJ Base Forces are below their TOE establishment by 50 support and 40 IJA infantry squads. These units are certainly fully-functional as they appear, but obviously a filled-out BF is superior to the bare-bones one in several ways.

they can provide support for other LCUs in the hex
they can defend themselves against limited attacks
they can serve as garrisons in Chinese cities and in Manchuko

The downside is that these additional 50 support and 40 IJA infantry squads cost a total of 1680 armaments points, 1680 manpower points and 1680 supply points (consumed locally!) for each BF. In addition they take considerable time to fill out.

I had been setting these to accept replacements. But then I realized that I had gone too far, too much supply and armaments were going into this, and that in particular a crucial IJA division reinforcement would have arrived at 25% strength if I continued as I was.

What do you as IJ do here? Let a few expand from the start, let none of them, let all of them and take your lumps? Expand some of them and use the others as they arrive? How many armaments factories do you expand to?

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 5:02:17 PM

Yamato hugger

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They start with 4" and 3.something CD guns. I turn on reinforcements for 1 day. This is enough to upgrade those guns to 5" and 4". Then I shut them off. I defend with army units. More organic artillery and support units. I let the base force do what it does best. Service my airplanes. I'd rather have the inf and support the base force doesnt have at start in my nav gd units.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 5:49:11 PM

DFalcon

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I will leave base forces in Tokyo until they fill out. I never have much of a supply problem in Tokyo and I have expanded my factories a bit. I will even give a combat unit that needs refit a holiday in Tokyo.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 7:08:20 PM

Bradley7735

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I play the allies, but my thought process works for Japan as well. I turn off replacements to all non-essential base forces (Far east, West coast, north pacific, etc). And I turn on replacements to any base force that I want to grow ASAP. If I don't have a very pressing need for a new base force when I get one as a reinforcement, I leave it in SF until it fills out. I turn on replacements to the backwater units as my pool gets larger.

So, if I were playing as Japan, I'd do the same thing. Except I'd leave the unit in Tokyo instead of SF. And, I think Japan doesn't have as many "backwater" areas. Manchuko is probably backwater in 41/42.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 8:22:48 PM

jwilkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

At arrival, IJ Base Forces are below their TOE establishment by 50 support and 40 IJA infantry squads. These units are certainly fully-functional as they appear, but obviously a filled-out BF is superior to the bare-bones one in several ways.

they can provide support for other LCUs in the hex

they can defend themselves against limited attacks

they can serve as garrisons in Chinese cities and in Manchuko

The downside is that these additional 50 support and 40 IJA infantry squads cost a total of 1680 armaments points, 1680 manpower points and 1680 supply points (consumed locally!) for each BF. In addition they take considerable time to fill out.

I had been setting these to accept replacements. But then I realized that I had gone too far, too much supply and armaments were going into this, and that in particular a crucial IJA division reinforcement would have arrived at 25% strength if I continued as I was.

What do you as IJ do here? Let a few expand from the start, let none of them, let all of them and take your lumps? Expand some of them and use the others as they arrive? How many armaments factories do you expand to?

Short answer - in 1942 I usually start by turning replacements off for everything - then I can "surgically" turn replacements on to focus their arrival in the critical units and allow an armament point reserve to build. And in 1942 as I turn replacements on gradually for some units, I lose this "focus" so occasionally ( roughly monthly ) I turn replacements back off globally and then turn back on for a few focused units. As I get into 1943 I need larger and larger numbers of units to remain on as I start to have larger and larger garrisions farther away that need to maintain their strength in case they get attacked. But by this point I've built up a good armaments reserve and can mange the hits the reserve is taking ( by turning on or off armaments plants - which I've usually turned some off in 1942 as the reserve builds up very fast under my "default off" system ). I can't say that this is the most optimal, but it evolved from a general idea of saving build points early on to avoid supply crunch and focus build point utilization - in the first 6 months especially - and the system accomplishes that purpose admirably.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 8:34:24 PM

ChezDaJez

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If they arrive without full aviation support, I will let them fill out until they have the maximum AV support possible, then I turn replacements off for them and send them on there way.

Occasionally, I will take a unit that I plan on using at or near a base in the SRA that generates a lot of supply (Toabali comes to mind) and ship it there without filling out first. I'll temporarily assign an HQ to the same base so it will fill out. I do this for one reason.... minimize the amount of supply drain in the home islands. Units that are going to CentPac I always fill out first.

I also don't worry about filling out a BF if it is headed for a base that already has substantial support such as Singapore, Manila or Soerabaja.

Chez

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 8:36:47 PM

WiTP_Dude

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I like to have all my base forces filled out.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 8:50:23 PM

tsimmonds

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What about armaments factories? IJ starts with 525. In a recent PBEM I initially expanded the smallest factories to reach 595, then to 670, and finally to 760. How about anyone else?

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 9:00:46 PM

ChezDaJez

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I normally expand them to about 700 over the course of the first year. After that, I don't worry too much about them. Pretty much depends on the situation in China because that is normally where they are needed most until the Allies start their offensive.

Chez

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/8/2005 9:04:51 PM

doktorblood

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I turn replacements on for everything except Kwantung Army for the 1st couple of months .... then I turn on everything once arms pool gets bigger. I leave new BFs in Japan until they fill out to 100%. Don't leave them all in Tokyo though ...send them to bases that need improvements ... they will grow there while building forts and stuff.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/9/2005 10:22:59 PM

acmejeff

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Dang! Wish I had thought of moving those BF around the home islands to get some work out of them while filling up. I am almost to 4/42 and my guys are just sitting in Tokyo getting drunk. (they do have high morale though) Next turn that situation will change!

< Message edited by acmejeff -- 10/9/2005 10:23:15 PM >

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/9/2005 10:37:44 PM

NemRod

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If I understand the manual correctly, those IJ base forces, as any base force, can grow over 100/100 and get more aviation support if you put them alone in a big airfield. I just remarked some of my IJ BF have now more than 30 aviation support, may be it's because of that reason.If it works this way it's an interesting air support complement, can anyone confirm?
I fill these units with at least 20 snlf squads for rear bases,but I wait for more when they are supposed to go in a front line base.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/9/2005 11:10:20 PM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NemRod

If I understand the manual correctly, those IJ base forces, as any base force, can grow over 100/100 and get more aviation support if you put them alone in a big airfield. I just remarked some of my IJ BF have now more than 30 aviation support, may be it's because of that reason.If it works this way it's an interesting air support complement, can anyone confirm?
I fill these units with at least 20 snlf squads for rear bases,but I wait for more when they are supposed to go in a front line base.

I think that growth only applies to the AI

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 12:48:01 AM

NemRod

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You are right Pompack,I checked the manual, it's only for the AI.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 6:00:25 AM

jwilkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

What about armaments factories? IJ starts with 525. In a recent PBEM I initially expanded the smallest factories to reach 595, then to 670, and finally to 760. How about anyone else?

My most advanced game ( May 43 ) I have 503 !? So looks like I certainly didn't build up aramaments ... I have about 17K+ in the pool ... enough at least to react and start building up if I hit a crunch ...

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 3:20:20 PM

tsimmonds

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In a recent PBEM I had something like 120,000 armaments points in the pool at one time; a large batch of reinforcements arrived and burned them all in a couple of days. A typical infantry division needs maybe 20-25,000 points to fill out fully....

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 3:43:53 PM

worr

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For those of you shutting down other units in the hopes of making the units you want filled out a higher priority...I don't think the game works in that general direction.

If there are enough units of supply in the pool they will fill out at the regular rate regardless of priorities you set. I haven't found the allied player to be lacking in these pools at any time, so I've generally not turned off replacements to troops except where I know I'm going to loose. Otherwise, the units fill out at a constant rate (too slow for me!) regardless of who many units want those engineers, aviation unites, etc.

I could be wrong, however. But that is my general understanding of how the game works.

Worr, out

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 4:39:19 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

For those of you shutting down other units in the hopes of making the units you want filled out a higher priority...I don't think the game works in that general direction.

For IJ, it does work that way. To draw squads and devices into LCUs, one must spend particular quantities of armaments and manpower points from the pools. If you are lacking one or the other, you get nada.

An exception to this would be for a type of device or squad where one did happen to have a quantity extant in the pool. This mostly is not the case however. IJ does not produce squads and devices to go into pools; IJ produces squads and devices as they are called for by LCUs.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 10/10/2005 5:25:44 PM >

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 7:26:59 PM

Oznoyng

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I generally fill out all my base forces for every HQ except Home Defense Force.

In China, 19 base forces can be expanded to 40 infantry squads. Filling them out releases approximately 760AP to front line service.

In Manchukuo, 7 base forces can be expanded to 40 infantry squads. Filling them out allows me to send an additional 280 AP to other theatres without activating the Soviets.

Finally, Japan doesn't have enough troops to occupy it's conquests and base forces give you enough defense that the Allied player will need more than a token effort to take the base. IJN BF units are especially fun, because they get coastal defense guns.

< Message edited by Oznoyng -- 10/10/2005 8:27:48 PM >

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 9:21:02 PM

jwilkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

In a recent PBEM I had something like 120,000 armaments points in the pool at one time; a large batch of reinforcements arrived and burned them all in a couple of days. A typical infantry division needs maybe 20-25,000 points to fill out fully....

Well I just burned 2k in one day ( never happened before - but of course it does now that we're talking about it !!! still May 43 in the game in question ) ... so I'm down to 15k in the pool ... so guess it is time to beef up production .. but if you're saying I.D. burned 60K per day over 2 day period ( 120k total ) - then I'll be in trouble if I wanna fill out my infantry divisions. Fortunately, I would prefer to spend the PP for them first, move them and THEN start beefing them up ( less PP and less transport ) ... so I should be able to control the 60K per day hits even if they do come ....

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 9:21:03 PM

jhdeerslayer

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Ditto for me too Oznoyng. Besides it is bad (and good

) enough trying to micromanage pilots and all without making this overly burdensome but that is my style.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 10:03:22 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

Well I just burned 2k in one day ( never happened before - but of course it does now that we're talking about it !!! still May 43 in the game in question ) ... so I'm down to 15k in the pool ... so guess it is time to beef up production .. but if you're saying I.D. burned 60K per day over 2 day period ( 120k total ) - then I'll be in trouble if I wanna fill out my infantry divisions. Fortunately, I would prefer to spend the PP for them first, move them and THEN start beefing them up ( less PP and less transport ) ... so I should be able to control the 60K per day hits even if they do come ....

If you have enough armament and manpower points in the bank, an LCU will arrive at full TOE strength. If you do not have enough points, it will fill out what it can. If you don't have any armament points, it will arrive at 25% TOE strength (which is apparently "free"), and you will have to fill it out -- or not! -- by burning armaments, manpower and supply after it's on the map. I believe this "pay later" option will also result in lowered experience.

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 10:54:28 PM

jwilkerson

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Well I recently got a division ( 61st I think ) in Tokyo - and it was "overstrength" !? And that was a few days before I dropped the 2k ... but I"ll keep an eye on things ... quite a few ground units will be arriving over the next few weeks ...

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 10:54:37 PM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

In a recent PBEM I had something like 120,000 armaments points in the pool at one time; a large batch of reinforcements arrived and burned them all in a couple of days. A typical infantry division needs maybe 20-25,000 points to fill out fully....

Well I just burned 2k in one day ( never happened before - but of course it does now that we're talking about it !!! still May 43 in the game in question ) ... so I'm down to 15k in the pool ... so guess it is time to beef up production .. but if you're saying I.D. burned 60K per day over 2 day period ( 120k total ) - then I'll be in trouble if I wanna fill out my infantry divisions. Fortunately, I would prefer to spend the PP for them first, move them and THEN start beefing them up ( less PP and less transport ) ... so I should be able to control the 60K per day hits even if they do come ....

Some Numbers and a bunch of assumptions:

1. an "average" inf div requires about 23,400 load points, a brigade 15,500, etc for each type of unit
2. There are 93,000 load points of "unfilled requirements" not counting Manchuria at start (very soft number)
3. The Japanese start with 20,000 armament points in the pool and 501 factory points

Then if we look at the reinforcements per month and assume that all have to be filled out with new production, the Japanese will require

538,000 points between 7dec41 and 1jun42 (7 ID, 6 rgt, 14 garrison, 12 SNLF, 1 CD, 2 HQ, 54 IJX base units, 2 base units, 9 special base units and 3 engineer units)

181,000 points between 1jun42 and 1dec42

156,000 between 1dec42 and 1jun43

293,000 in June 1943

Now if we assume that there are NO losses between 7dec41 and 1jun42, then the total requirements for this period becomes 631,000 points or about 105,000 per month.

The first point is that while the "crunch week" is bad (over 240,000 points in one week!), this peak month is only two and a half times the average for the first six months of the war, not counting losses.

However here is where I start getting a little confused. In one game I did not increase the factories yet by June, 1942 I had filled out virtually all of my forces (not including Manchuria), replaced losses and had a few hundred points in the pool. IF you only get one armament point per day per armament factory (see page 180 of the manual and a separate thread) you will produce 90,300 points which, with the 20,000 you start with, gives a total of 110,300 points produced. So how did I fill out 538,000 points of new production as well as replace losses and fill out the partial-at-start units? Even if all the new units arrived at 25% strength for free, that still leaves 403,500 points just for the new units.

< Message edited by pompack -- 10/10/2005 10:58:36 PM >

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/10/2005 11:09:28 PM

tsimmonds

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<struck speechless>

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/11/2005 3:22:34 AM

jwilkerson

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Unfortunately my general practice has been somewhat the opposite from POMPACKs .. while I have not yet increased armaments in any of my games ( most advanced May 43 ... least advanced current active game Sept 42 ) ... I do turn off replacements for all units from the start and only selectively turn on replacements ( usually for attacking / beseiging stacks only ). Up until May 43 I had a slightly increasing 22K points of armaments which now that i've started turning on the forward garrisons that I think are Allied targets - I'm starting to drop AM points pretty quickly ... but I've never tried to fill everyone out in 1942 ... but tried to save in this area ( and spend in other areas ! )

But if his numbers and assumptions are correct - then there must be another ( LARGE ) pool of AM points somewhere he is drawing from !!!

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/11/2005 4:23:24 AM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

But if his numbers and assumptions are correct - then there must be another ( LARGE ) pool of AM points somewhere he is drawing from !!!

Possible explanations

1. Reinforcement units arrive with subordinate elements (at least some of them) in addition to the 25% freebe
2. Each factory produces six armament points instead of one
3. other?

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/11/2005 4:56:35 AM

jwilkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

But if his numbers and assumptions are correct - then there must be another ( LARGE ) pool of AM points somewhere he is drawing from !!!

Possible explanations

1. Reinforcement units arrive with subordinate elements (at least some of them) in addition to the 25% freebe
2. Each factory produces six armament points instead of one
3. other?

Well I'd strongly suspect 1 is the case ... since I just got 61 I.D. ( in Tokyo ) and 303 Infantry Squads ( out of 200 and something ) and didn't lose more than 1-2k armaments points that turn ( in addition to everything else I was replacing ) ... so reinforcements ( not dead guys comming back ) may eat out of "another pool" ...

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/11/2005 5:03:11 AM

pompack

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Additional data points:
First, I found some records of that particular AI game.
20000 7dec41
12702 11dec41
200 30dec41
5 28jan42
897 9feb42
1098 28feb42
1593 10mar42
1580 17mar42
13958 12aug42
I wish I had data for Apr-Jul 42 and I wish I had left some record of what replacements I turned on when. However, I gradually turned on replacements for everyone except the Manchuria units. By the time I dropped it, the only units outside Manchuria that were not full strength were the one's deployed out of range of HQs.

Second, here is a game where I have a save; once again the numbers just don't match.

596 factories with 24,002 in the pool as of 12sep42. I did check on every divison and all 52 of them were at full strength (including Manchuria). Running some numbers quickly

166,800 produced assuming 596 factories from 7dec41 at one point/factory
650,310 required for reinforcement units at 100%
487,700 required for reinforcement units at 75%

This descrepency of at least 320,000 points is in addition to losses for 10 months and building up the defecient at-start units

< Message edited by pompack -- 10/11/2005 5:04:12 AM >

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RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/11/2005 5:47:19 AM

jwilkerson

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Hum,

Well the on map guys would be using the pool ... looks like somehow you hit a "feature" that allowed the pool to overflow ... like maybe by first driving it negative ... though I doubt you're the first person to do that !

So don't know how you did it - but I'd wonder if it was repeatable ( in another game ) and hence do we know the pre-conditions for this strange event to occur ... I certainly haven't been "so lucky" in any of my games !!!

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