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Puresim versus OOTP - 10/7/2005 1:36:34 AM

dwinston

Posts: 104
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What are the differences between these two games? Thanks

Post #: 1

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/7/2005 6:17:12 AM

ChrisJohnson

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The main difference right now is that OOTP has more depth (multi-level minors, waivers, DFA list, pick trading, etc.), but some of this depth doesn't work. What PureSim has it does pretty well. I think the stadium configuration options in PureSim are much better than OOTP. I also like PureSim's on the field interface better than OOTP. Mutli-player options are pretty nice, but lack OOTP depth.

I own both and I'll play both.

(in reply to dwinston)

Post #: 2

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/7/2005 7:22:07 AM

KG Erwin

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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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One thing Pure Sim DOES have is an opportunity to offer suggestions for game enhancements, and it allows direct contact with the game's developer.

This is a very pro-active community, so any questions or comments you have will be acknowledged by either the developer or an experienced player.

_____________________________

(in reply to dwinston)

Post #: 3

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/7/2005 7:38:01 AM

Steely Glint

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwinston

What are the differences between these two games? Thanks

Let me speak only of the good.

PureSim has a better interface and has a friendly and accessible designer. PureSim is affiliated with Matrix. PureSim has been available as shareware on occasion.

OOTP is deeper, is far more feature-packed, is easier to customize to your own preferences, has a much larger and more dedicated user base, has a large and excellent collection of free user-made add-ons (schedules, roster sets, data bases, photopacks, name files, logos, etc., including Catobase, the awesome database utility that is probably the greatest single add-on ever for a computer sports game).

I own both and play both, and I recommend owning both of them to anyone who likes computer baseball.

_____________________________

�It was a war of snap judgments and binary results�shoot or don�t, live or die.�

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to dwinston)

Post #: 4

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/8/2005 7:48:42 PM

marc420

Posts: 224
Joined: 9/23/2002
From: Terrapin Station
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Sorry, but OOTP does have an active community and last time I looked the developer participates in it rather actively (when he's not coding!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

One thing Pure Sim DOES have is an opportunity to offer suggestions for game enhancements, and it allows direct contact with the game's developer.

This is a very pro-active community, so any questions or comments you have will be acknowledged by either the developer or an experienced player.

_____________________________

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. ~George Washington

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 5

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/10/2005 9:59:47 PM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
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I would characterise them as 'PureSim is better at the out-of-the-box single-player experience', 'OOTP 6.x is better at customization and multi-player'.

One big difference right now is 'PureSim is available and continuously in development, while OOTP is in the midst of a massive re-write to the Sports Interactive engine.' (OOTP did release '6.5' updates including both bug fixes and new features for this season, but their primary focus has been on getting the SI version ready for Spring of 2006.)

I rather expect that to be a short-term step backward for OOTP, and a long-term step forwards.

(in reply to marc420)

Post #: 6

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/11/2005 6:18:59 AM

Steely Glint

Posts: 580
Joined: 9/23/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

I would characterise them as 'PureSim is better at the out-of-the-box single-player experience', 'OOTP 6.x is better at customization and multi-player'.

I disagree totally. IMO OOTP shines out of the box, and is better for a single player.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

One big difference right now is 'PureSim is available and continuously in development, while OOTP is in the midst of a massive re-write to the Sports Interactive engine.'

I often wonder what planet you are on when you post stuff like this. The OOTP 6.5b open beta, featuring numerous fixes and some new stuff, was just released and is currently being tested by the OOTP community. It qualifies in every way as continuous developement. Sure,OOTP 2006 is being developed, but OOTP6 is still very much in continuous developement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

but their primary focus has been on getting the SI version ready for Spring of 2006.)

No way! With Markus releasing the unexpected totally 6.5 update and then 6.5a and now 6.5b, that's just not so. To date the focus has been shared.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

I rather expect that to be a short-term step backward for OOTP, and a long-term step forwards.

You must not know the testers. Watch for OOTP 2006 to be a big step forward, both in the short and the long term.

_____________________________

�It was a war of snap judgments and binary results�shoot or don�t, live or die.�

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to Amaroq)

Post #: 7

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/11/2005 11:03:39 AM

athkatla

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steely Glint

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

I would characterise them as 'PureSim is better at the out-of-the-box single-player experience', 'OOTP 6.x is better at customization and multi-player'.

I disagree totally. IMO OOTP shines out of the box, and is better for a single player.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

One big difference right now is 'PureSim is available and continuously in development, while OOTP is in the midst of a massive re-write to the Sports Interactive engine.'

I often wonder what planet you are on when you post stuff like this. The OOTP 6.5b open beta, featuring numerous fixes and some new stuff, was just released and is currently being tested by the OOTP community. It qualifies in every way as continuous developement. Sure,OOTP 2006 is being developed, but OOTP6 is still very much in continuous developement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

but their primary focus has been on getting the SI version ready for Spring of 2006.)

No way! With Markus releasing the unexpected totally 6.5 update and then 6.5a and now 6.5b, that's just not so. To date the focus has been shared.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

I rather expect that to be a short-term step backward for OOTP, and a long-term step forwards.

You must not know the testers. Watch for OOTP 2006 to be a big step forward, both in the short and the long term.

Having purchased every version of Championship Manager, and now Football Manager 2005, and currently beta testing Football Manager 2006, Sports Interactives award winning games, I wholeheartedly agree with you. These guys do the job properly and more importantly listen to their community and contribute daily to the forum, answering questions and taking on board suggestions for the next version of the game.

Oops, this should have quoted Amaroqs post.

< Message edited by athkatla -- 10/11/2005 11:04:20 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 8

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/11/2005 3:55:18 PM

Beach23BoyP

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Joined: 8/20/2005
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quote:

Having purchased every version of Championship Manager, and now Football Manager 2005, and currently beta testing Football Manager 2006, Sports Interactives award winning games, I wholeheartedly agree with you. These guys do the job properly and more importantly listen to their community and contribute daily to the forum, answering questions and taking on board suggestions for the next version of the game.

I manage "Havant and Waterlooville" in the Conference South. With FM2006 Gold Demo I'm having a lot of trouble winning games! I lost all my friendlies and I've split the first two matches of the 2005/2006 Conference South season.

I was much better with FM2005 -- I took Havant & W to almost League One in four seasons! Best sports text sim ever!

(in reply to athkatla)

Post #: 9

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/11/2005 8:59:50 PM

Silverbullet

Posts: 114
Joined: 8/20/2005
From: New Jersey,USA
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I am currently playing the FM Mgr. Gold Demo.
It is very good in managing a team, but not having any idea about the sport of soccer I haven't a clue what is going on.
Loaning out players??
Players being taken from your team to play for "their countries"?
Possible "bug" of injuies up the gazoo?
It is my opinion if you understand the sport of soccer, as well as many Americans understand Baseball and American Football this is probably a very good sport sim.
But as I have already stated I am clueless and cannot enjoy it.

< Message edited by Silverbullet -- 10/11/2005 9:00:07 PM >

(in reply to Beach23BoyP)

Post #: 10

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/11/2005 10:51:58 PM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

quote:

I often wonder what planet you are on when you post stuff like this.

The planet of "an insider's perspective" - I'm also a game developer, and in my experience, it isn't possible to be both focused on patch/support for past projects and development on a new projects: on any given day, I'm only productive at one, and there's a lot of 'context switching' time ramping up your thought process when you shift from one to another. Understanding how different 2006 is from 6.0/6.5 - literally written in different languages, plus all of the differences between using the OOTP core engine and the 2006 core engine - I have a very good idea of just how challenging a task Markus is undertaking. So, I expect the initial 2006 release to be very challenging for the developer - and if he's splitting time to provide a 6.5 update for the community, I expect that that is distracting his effort from a challenging project.

He may prove me wrong - but I think there's a danger of 'crushing weight of expectations', burnout, etc, with such a large project: you can get to a point where the bug count is so high that it is daunting, where you feel like you either have to miss a ship date or ship a buggy project, and worse where you can't add people to the project because it'll take them 3-6 months to stop being a drain on your existing engineers and 6-12 months to make your initial investment (training) worthwhile. Eventually, it will launch, and it will launch with bugs in it, because it would cost SI (and Markus) more to fix the bugs (in terms of time and lost sales) than the bugs are worth economically (in terms of lost sales).

If you'd like to read some more on these topics - and not from me - I'd recommend Joel On Software, as its a very good software engineer writing from the engineer's perspective:

Things You Should Never Do, Part I
Human Task Switches Considered Harmful
Good Software Takes Ten Years: Get Used To It
Hard-assed Bug Fixing

Anyways, that's the perspective I have on it, and 'what planet I'm coming from'.

I think the SI/OOTP partnership has exceptional promise for the long term... but that both the 2005 release and 2006 release will suffer for it. Is 6.5 as big a step forward as Markus would have made had he remained 100% focused on it? And for 2006, is he focusing his effort on 'getting all the features which worked in 6.x working again' or 'implementing new features into a working code base'?

(in reply to Silverbullet)

Post #: 11

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/11/2005 10:59:29 PM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

In response to the CM/FM focus of the thread, I'm currently on the third team of my FM2005 career, fighting for honors in the Championship having started with Lancaster in the Conference North.

I've played the series since CM2, and post in that forum under the same name. Athkatla, do you post in that forum?

Silverbullet - I found my first exposure to it overwhelming, as I lacked the same 'knowledge of soccer', despite having played and managed in youth/rec leagues up through about age 16 in the U.S. The depth of understanding just isn't the same. However, playing a simpler game (one of the competitors) really got me hooked on the concept - I love the promotion/relegation aspect, and there's nothing more satisfying than bringing your team up from the depths of obscurity and turning them into a European power. The forum over at sigames.com is a welcoming place, and willing to help bridge the gaps between 'American' and 'British', which is actually a bit of a limiting factor.

Its worth overcoming the 'this isn't my sport' hurdle because, frankly, it is the best game in the genre, and in general what every other text-based sports management simulation should aspire to be. Ironically, its a bit over ten years in development, as though to prove Joel's point (referenced in one of the links in my last post - links really don't stand out on this forum, at least not the way I'm viewing it!) about the 10-year maturity cycle.

(in reply to Amaroq)

Post #: 12

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/12/2005 12:11:07 AM

athkatla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq
Athkatla, do you post in that forum?

Yes I do, but of late I have mainly been posting in the Beta Testers forum, which isn't available for other users. I was on the beta test team for FM2005 and am currently testing FM2006, though it's gone gold, so these current bugs will be for the first patch no doubt. I post as Mariners on the SI games forums, that's the nickname of the team I support in real life, Grimsby Town, who are unfortunately in League 2, though we did beat Premiership team Tottenham Hotspur in the Carling Cup, and are due to play Newcastle United in the next round.

BTW you're gonna like FM2006, if you buy it, it's a big improvement on FM2005 without straying away from the basics of that version.

_____________________________

Win at all costs!

(in reply to Amaroq)

Post #: 13

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/12/2005 2:00:50 AM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
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Excellent! Nice to meet you. I'm a York City fan, myself, by virtue of having played them in CM01/02, and have been following them IRL the past several years. So I've faced Grimsby Town quite a few times in CM/FM matches.

I'll definitely be buying, but am not in the 'have to rush out and get it on day of release' crowd; I'll be waiting for the U.S. release.

In MLB, there's a Seattle Mariners, who you might enjoy playing for similarity of nickname.

(in reply to athkatla)

Post #: 14

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/12/2005 3:49:37 AM

Beach23BoyP

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Joined: 8/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silverbullet
It is my opinion if you understand the sport of soccer, as well as many Americans understand Baseball and American Football this is probably a very good sport sim.
But as I have already stated I am clueless and cannot enjoy it.

About three years ago I started watching the Fox Soccer Channel (then called Fox Sports World) and after watching about 5 or 6 English Premier matches I started to understand it. Also, I now watch the recap shows and I read English football websites quite a bit. I've learn a lot -- and Soccer (no, Football) grows on me more and more each day. In fact, while the Astros were playing for almost 6 hours Sunday I watched Tiger and parts of two socccer games!

(in reply to Silverbullet)

Post #: 15

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/12/2005 8:21:58 AM

athkatla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

Excellent! Nice to meet you. I'm a York City fan, myself, by virtue of having played them in CM01/02, and have been following them IRL the past several years. So I've faced Grimsby Town quite a few times in CM/FM matches. I'll definitely be buying, but am not in the 'have to rush out and get it on day of release' crowd; I'll be waiting for the U.S. release.

In MLB, there's a Seattle Mariners, who you might enjoy playing for similarity of nickname.

Indeed, York is actually less than an hours drive from where I live and before they were relegated from the Football League Grimsby played them quite a few times in what we call over here, a 'Derby' match. That describes a game played between 2 teams who are geographically close to each other.

_____________________________

Win at all costs!

(in reply to Amaroq)

Post #: 16

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/12/2005 8:23:18 AM

athkatla

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: athkatla

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

Excellent! Nice to meet you. I'm a York City fan, myself, by virtue of having played them in CM01/02, and have been following them IRL the past several years. So I've faced Grimsby Town quite a few times in CM/FM matches. I'll definitely be buying, but am not in the 'have to rush out and get it on day of release' crowd; I'll be waiting for the U.S. release.

In MLB, there's a Seattle Mariners, who you might enjoy playing for similarity of nickname.

Indeed, York is actually less than an hours drive from where I live and before they were relegated from the Football League Grimsby played them quite a few times in what we call over here, a 'Derby' match. That describes a game played between 2 teams who are geographically close to each other.

One of my yahoo account names is marinerfan_uk, and many times I was asked by people from the US if I was a Seattle fan.

_____________________________

Win at all costs!

(in reply to athkatla)

Post #: 17

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/12/2005 8:36:03 AM

Steely Glint

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

The planet of "an insider's perspective" - I'm also a game developer, and in my experience, it isn't possible to be both focused on patch/support for past projects and development on a new projects: on any given day, I'm only productive at one, and there's a lot of 'context switching' time ramping up your thought process when you shift from one to another.

I work on much larger IT projects, and it is not only possible but common to be "both focused on patch/support for past projects and development on a new projects (sic)"

And in the future please spare us all the condescension. A lot of gamers are also programmers, and game developers are just (yawn) yet another subset of programmers.

_____________________________

�It was a war of snap judgments and binary results�shoot or don�t, live or die.�

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to Amaroq)

Post #: 18

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/12/2005 3:54:30 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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Folks, I often regret seeing "this vs. that" threads because they usually lead to friction between fans. Let's keep the tone civil or I'll have to lock this up.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Steely Glint)

Post #: 19

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/12/2005 4:51:21 PM

puresimmer

Posts: 2299
Joined: 7/24/2005
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Steely and Amoraq,

You guys are both some of the best contributors to the PureSim forums and community. You are also both great guys. I'm positive you'd be buddies if you lived in the same town.

So lets all hug... Ok that feels better :)

Seriously if you look at Amoraq's contribution to this forum and the old PureSim boards I know you'll see he is a million miles from condescending! I actually feel like I should be paying him he's so helpful to folks.

Also, Steely I really value your feedback from the OOTP side of things. I think OOTP is a great game, and I respect the heck out of Markus. There is room for both games on everyone's hard drive.

_____________________________

Developer, PureSim Baseball

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 20

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/13/2005 12:47:25 AM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

quote:

And in the future please spare us all the condescension.

I'm sorry you felt that I was condescending - I didn't intend to imply a negative, 'holier than', or otherwise superior tone.

I felt that you had asked 'what is your perspective, and why do you say this?' to my earlier post, so I posted what I thought was the proper response: I gave my background to explain my biases, described why my personal experiences gave me the impression that I had expressed, and then offered supporting articles by a neutral third party.

Again, I apologize for any offense taken - and am willing to leave it at that if you are content.

Erik, I hope that I was (and am still) keeping the tone civil, but would not mind seeing this thread locked if you will.

Shaun, thanks for the vote of confidence - it means a lot.

(in reply to puresimmer)

Post #: 21

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/14/2005 7:50:38 AM

Steely Glint

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Joined: 9/23/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: puresimmer

Steely I really value your feedback from the OOTP side of things. I think OOTP is a great game, and I respect the heck out of Markus. There is room for both games on everyone's hard drive.

OOTP is a great game, Markus is a very talented designer (he was a young man who reached for the stars and somehow managed to pull some of them down), and anyone who likes computer baseball should own both PureSim and OOTP - especially because both of them are going to get better as time goes by.

_____________________________

�It was a war of snap judgments and binary results�shoot or don�t, live or die.�

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to puresimmer)

Post #: 22

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/14/2005 2:20:35 PM

ChrisJohnson

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Joined: 10/1/2005
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Yea, that's what I don't understand. Why is it an either one or the other situation

? To be honest, there was a time when the gap between PureSim and OOTP was very large, but those days are over, especially for solo players. Hopefully PureSim 2006 will close it even further. I am always in favor of supporting career baseball game developers, so I highly endorse owning both games. Heck, the combined price of both is less than one console game. Look at it that way!

(in reply to Steely Glint)

Post #: 23

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/14/2005 10:11:22 PM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

quote:

anyone who likes computer baseball should own both PureSim and OOTP - especially because both of them are going to get better as time goes by.

Steely and I may have disagreed on some points in this thread

, but I'd like to thoroughly endorse this recommendation - if you've enjoyed one, I fully expect that you will enjoy the other as well.

(in reply to ChrisJohnson)

Post #: 24

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/16/2005 5:50:53 PM

Steely Glint

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Joined: 9/23/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisJohnson

Why is it an either one or the other situation ?

It isn't, and both games are so reasonably priced that there's really not much excuse for not owning both.

_____________________________

�It was a war of snap judgments and binary results�shoot or don�t, live or die.�

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to ChrisJohnson)

Post #: 25

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/16/2005 5:51:35 PM

Steely Glint

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Amaroq and I agreed on something? Armageddon must be near.

_____________________________

�It was a war of snap judgments and binary results�shoot or don�t, live or die.�

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to Steely Glint)

Post #: 26

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/17/2005 2:07:02 PM

puresimmer

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See, I knew you guys would find some common ground.

_____________________________

Developer, PureSim Baseball

(in reply to Steely Glint)

Post #: 27

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/22/2005 4:11:58 AM

Wayllander

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With all the great sim baseball games out (I'm a big fan of ootp ntw) you would think someone would put out a decent (American) football sim. HINT HINT

--way

(in reply to puresimmer)

Post #: 28

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/23/2005 2:08:02 AM

ravinhood

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Heh It always boils down to my game is better than your game on the vs threads.

If you like Pure Sim play Pure Sim. If you like OOTPBB play OOTPBB.

I like OOTPBB it's the best simulation baseball game on a computer I've ever played. I don't agree with what a lot of people are saying about it concerning the interface and field design, etc. etc., but, who cares, you aren't going to stop me from playing it or keep me from advertising it's a great and the best simulation to me. ;)

To me what really puts OOTPBB over the top is that you can be fired as a manager if you don't please the owner, you can get married and have sons that can grow up to be players in the game, you get a salary, just that roleplaying element to it adds more to it than just a simulation of baseball.

I also only like to play General Manager, I like to wheel and deal for the players and assign batting and pitching lineups, but, that's it. I simulate everything else out. I could care less about calling pitch by pitch or play by play. I created a Dynasty in the Texas Rangers, Won the World Series 4 years straight. ;) But, when you have Pujols and Dunn on your team you should win a lot. ;)

The only problem I see in OOTPBB is that the AI doesn't really look at players stats and age well enough, I've seen them pay millions to an aging dying in stats pitcher or batter, whereas I unload any and everyone at the age of 33 to 35, wish the computer ai would do this also more often than not and quit wasting such good money on aging dying veterans that might have one more good year in them and then their stats fall like rain.

(in reply to Wayllander)

Post #: 29

RE: Puresim versus OOTP - 10/23/2005 7:44:28 AM

ChrisJohnson

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Joined: 10/1/2005
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Fortunately their are many sane people that can actually play more than one game at a time

. Nobody can claim to be a bigger supporter of OOTP than I am. I currently run or help run two OOTP leagues - one started in 2001 and the other in 2003. Before that, I wrote many of the first reviews of OOTP. It is a good game. But so is PureSim. Go and make your stadium walls 1,000 feet high and see if that impacts play on the field in OOTP. Want to see where the ball is hit in OOTP? Well, too bad because you can't. Now certainly as myself and others have pointed out, there are quite a few areas where PureSim can improve. Honestly, if I had to own just one, I'd only own OOTP. But, I don't just have to own one. I am happy to support anybody like Shaun who is dedicated to improving this genre.

< Message edited by ChrisJohnson -- 10/23/2005 7:50:18 AM >

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 30