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RE: Closing down - 10/5/2005 1:36:53 AM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Shame to see that MC. Has been an interesting ride!

Any word from Mods/Devs on this?

Maybe they could fix it and allow you to struggle on?

Steven


Ditto. It's been fun reading this aar.


Now you are making me feel guilty

I'll think about continuing

Anyway I made a counter proposal to GH:
- No 4E night bombing, but for city attack.
- Forget about Australia, he can play as he likes. Let's see what happens.


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RE: Closing down - 10/5/2005 4:13:38 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi MC,

My thoughts and house rules for Night Bombing is none allowed except city attacks and naval attacks.

Steven

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RE: Closing down - 10/7/2005 1:13:31 AM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

Now you are making me feel guilty

I'll think about continuing


I know that being defeated by a bug is terrible for your morale, but please, think about continuing. It's a great match (and great AAR).

Bye!!!

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Post #: 363
RE: Closing down - 10/7/2005 3:07:16 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Ciao Invernomuto,

Thanks for your appreciation of the game and of the AAR.

I'm taking this opportunity to go through a couple of issues.

First, it appears the Australian situation is not due to a bug but to a combination of game features coupled with AB Map Mod.
As the game is today I have no way to counter attack in Australia by land.
Because I cannot leave the road or, due to the distance, I’d go out of supply.
Hence I can only go for a head to head attack in Daly, where he is fortified and under air support. Plus I’d risk being encircled. I’d need at least 10-15 divisions. There’s no way I’m going to stuck such a force (which I don’t have anyway) in the middle of this rainy desert.
What appears quite clearly from this experience is that, with Andrew Map Mod, Northern Australia is at the mercy of the Japs.
You cannot move troops by sea due to the locked HQ and it takes two months by land. Once you loose it you cannot retake it, at least not by land.
Quite a perk!

Second, about the AAR.
I believe the next 4-8 months will be very boring, at least for me, hence I’m not so keen on writing about nothing.
China is already lost, he has at least one year to comfortably take out my remaining enclaves: Chungking, Changsha, Tsuyung, Lanchow, Sining. Nothing I can do about it. I’m just fighting a little bit over Sining. But once he brings in 3-500 bombers I’m gone.
India-Burma. Without night bombing I cannot keep him away because I have nothing to escort my bombers with during daylight. Hence I’ll go back to play defence, training my pilots and bomb within 2 hexes range. At least until mid ’43.

Australia. It’s game over until I can attack by sea. It means I have to wait for the F6F. Mid ’43 again.

Pacific. Same as Australia. Nothing I can do before I get the F6F.

Usually (by usually I mean in the two other games in which I’m around this time of the year) in summer ’42 I’m fighting over Timor using Northern Australia as staging area and everywhere in China.
In this game I lost China already and Northern Australia, hence there’s nothing to do or to write about.

I hope I’ll be able to overcome the bore and keep up till ’43. I can’t say I’m enjoying the game.


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RE: Closing down - 10/7/2005 3:30:49 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

I can’t say I’m enjoying the game.



Enjoying the game is not the point, young padawan.

The point is to suffer thru the game, and become a Jedi.

If we'd all play WITP until the first frustrating, enjoyment-killing moment in the game, no one would ever get past X-mas 41 (statistically the time first bug/frustration/quirk/defeat/bitterness occurs).

<Yoda speak>

Continued this game should be.

</Yoda speak>

O.


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RE: Closing down - 10/7/2005 4:02:32 PM   
mc3744


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Hi Oleg,

I'm not quitting the game. I'm simply not enjoying it.

As a consequence I do not want to invest additional time by writing the AAR.
Once (if ever) I'm back enjoying it, I'll be back writing about it.

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Post #: 366
Game over - 10/8/2005 5:50:32 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		As you have already read on GH's AAR I decided to surrender.

I feel like I have to briefly explain my reasons.

1) Australia. It was impossible to defend it initially due to the lock on Australian Divisions and the Andrew Map, and it's now impossible to retake it by land. Due to the rule on supplies+distance and Andrew Map.

2) China is lost. Not a minor loss!

3) The last attack on Sining: 400+ airplanes from a size (4) airfield. My bad, we had no house rules.
The problem with this last is that I cannot adapt to the DS tactic. I'm just not able. I keep playing a different way and I keep getting beaten. In all my games I never place more than size*50 planes in any front line airfield.
It's not like I'm out of P-40, I still have (60) in the pool after replacing the losses. But I don't like this system.
To counter it, I'd have to wait till I also have hundreds of capable fighters, mass them all and see who has more. Which in turn means that I have to wait till spring '43 to have enough P-38 and Corsair's.
I'm not sure whether it's realistic or not, but it makes for one sided games: till he has more he plays, when I have more I play. Which is what has happened in the last 8 months of war, but for the night bombing.

One last note, I just read that GH would have attacked in China from Ledo with heavies. The thing is that I don't use Liberators (only B-17s) from size (5) airfileds. Another personal house rule.
I tried heavies from airfiled size (4) in two games, and I felt it ruined the game, hence I'm no loger doing it.

I've asked GH to play a very different game (with several house rules to limit the DS strategy to my benefit). August '42 campaign, always as Allies. I just can't play the first months of war any longer.

Should he accepts I guess we'll start a new AAR.

I'm sorry to give up after so much time invested, but I guess after loosing so much the Allies would probably sue for peace IRL too.

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Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/9/2005 3:32:43 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
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From: Italy
Status: offline 		August 1st, 1942

After a few failed morale checks the Allied Supreme Command is back on his feet.

A new struggle lay ahead: learn to adapt to enemy strategy and think ‘out of the box’.
We shall make the Force Concentration Doctrine (FCD) ours!

INDIA-BURMA
Here is where I have the biggest chances of achieving some results, because I can rely on a chain of nearby airfields.
However I’m not able to escort my bombers because the P-40’s a re no match for the Tony’s and anyway I don’t yet have enough, only (144).
Hence the new plans for the British checkerboard.

1) Develop Ramree Is. to airfield size (4) to bring Rangoon within fighters and TB’s coverage. From there, if feasible, Andaman Island will be the next target. With the purpose of going Southbound parallel to Malaya. It’s pure speculation so far, but I have to start somewhere.
The 823rd Eng Av Bn is already there, the 251st UK Bde is loading on a Fast Transport TF to garrison the island.
2) US troops and planes are leaving Western Australia for a long and perilous journey to Colombo. I need more fighters and I need more troops (elsewhere useless): FCD!
3) I’ll play defence in the air until I have enough P-38’s to match the Tony’s, hence probably by early ’43.
4) Top secret. The US carrier TF now in Sidney will head for Colombo to join the British carriers. Mission: top secret!

AUSTRALIA
Northern Australia is beyond reach.
Western Australia will be used to train Dutch pilots over Exmouth.
New Guinea will be the next target. I’ll start bombing from Cairns and will develop Cooktown. It’ll take several months before anything can be attempted.
All units not belonging to Australian HQ and presently in Central Australia will head for Alice for reorganization and reassignment.

PACIFIC
Next target (or rather potential one) will be Fiji. I’ll try to bring, through Fast Transport from Bora Bora troops in Torangapu, (9) hexes from Fiji. If I succeed that could be my next starting point. Efate needs developing too.

The Supreme Allied Command is confident that morale checks will remain steady for a while … at least one week!


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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/9/2005 6:44:49 PM   
BLurking


Posts: 199
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From: Frisco, TX
Status: offline 		Excellent News!
Keep up the good fight, remember the Allies just have to enjoy the small victories until the large ones are possible. Plan small operations just to keep up morale.
One suggestion: keep the carriers near a decent size shipyard until October(?). Those AAA upgrades make your carriers a force to be respected.

Good Luck.

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/9/2005 7:51:30 PM   
Bliztk


Posts: 779
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline 		I think that sending your US CVs to a backwater theather like IO is dangerous, after GH discovers the trick he can block the route back or worse, prepare an ambush.

The journey between India and Aus is long, and one damaged ship with FLT damage is at danger. If you want to be creative I would suggest the contrary, bring the RN to Pacific.

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/9/2005 10:26:45 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I'll think about the carriers. They are still docked in Sidney. I haven't made up my mind yet.

August 2nd, 1942

INDIA-BURMA
The 23rd Chindit Bde is now available in Karachi.
In the picture the next potential route of expansion.

AUSTRALIA
(64) Liberators are loading in Perth, destination Colombo.

PACIFIC
No news.





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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/9/2005 10:40:55 PM   
String


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Status: offline 		I notice you still have three transport squadrons in SF. Get them to India ASAP so they can fly supplies to China. The best way for this would be to ship them to PH, wait a few days when they repair, then fly them all the way to Perth and then ship them from there, be sure to send some AK's ot Perth if there aren't any there.

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/10/2005 11:13:02 AM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

I notice you still have three transport squadrons in SF. Get them to India ASAP so they can fly supplies to China. The best way for this would be to ship them to PH, wait a few days when they repair, then fly them all the way to Perth and then ship them from there, be sure to send some AK's ot Perth if there aren't any there.


On their way, thanks

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/10/2005 1:32:14 PM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
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quote:

August 1st, 1942

After a few failed morale checks the Allied Supreme Command is back on his feet.


That's an excellent news!

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/10/2005 4:25:31 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

August 1st, 1942

After a few failed morale checks the Allied Supreme Command is back on his feet.


I never believed that you'ld quit!


quote:

1) Develop Ramree Is. to airfield size (4) to bring Rangoon within fighters and TB’s coverage. From there, if feasible, Andaman Island will be the next target. With the purpose of going Southbound parallel to Malaya. It’s pure speculation so far, but I have to start somewhere.
The 823rd Eng Av Bn is already there, the 251st UK Bde is loading on a Fast Transport TF to garrison the island.


Be careful not to overcommit in Burma. If he notices that there're many British/Indian units in Burma, he may go for India. Would be a dangerous course for him because he'ld have to face experienced RAF pilots, but nevertheless he should have enough time to conquer Trincomalee before your short-legged RAF fighters arrive in numbers.

quote:


2) US troops and planes are leaving Western Australia for a long and perilous journey to Colombo. I need more fighters and I need more troops (elsewhere useless): FCD!


Dangerous indeed! Even a small Japanese carrier raid could cost you too much. Without air cover available (that is: carriers), I'ld not try this now!

quote:


3) I’ll play defence in the air until I have enough P-38’s to match the Tony’s, hence probably by early ’43.


Well, not many places for air offensives now, but you still have to kill as many Japanese pilots as possible!

quote:


4) Top secret. The US carrier TF now in Sidney will head for Colombo to join the British carriers. Mission: top secret!


Would make sense if you want to escort a convoy with planes and other stuff (at least halfway until the RN carriers can take over), but otherwise?

quote:


PACIFIC
Next target (or rather potential one) will be Fiji. I’ll try to bring, through Fast Transport from Bora Bora troops in Torangapu, (9) hexes from Fiji. If I succeed that could be my next starting point. Efate needs developing too.


Once you know where KB is, it may be worth to try to directly attack Fiji with US forces. I don't think that your opponent can have much there (well, with GH one never knows, but you could try to find out before...).

quote:


The Supreme Allied Command is confident that morale checks will remain steady for a while … at least one week!


This lies in the nature of playing the Allies in WITP

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/10/2005 8:20:32 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		August 5th, 1942

Hi K!
Thanks. I wasn’t so sure.
Replies to your comments below.

INDIA-BURMA
I’m not too concerned by a Japanese offensive in Ceylon or India.
In 2-3 days I can bring the fighters on station.
Right now I have 4x(16) Spitfire squadrons with 78-80 exp. And the equivalent in Hurricane’s. Plus (144) P-40’s with exp 68-75. Add to that (8) Wirraway’s squadrons already at 75+ and tons of TB’s and LB’s.
Ceylon is at fortifications level (9) with some (400) AP, not much, but with mines and fortifications he’d have to stay on station for some time to conquer it. Away from air ground based support.
I really wish he’d go for it.
India is very well defended, mines and infantry units everywhere.
GH is most probably too good a player for me, but I still think I can defend India.
I’ve just discovered something very good. Pontianak is still in my hands and with air support too (see picture). Liberators can fly from Australia to Pontianak and from there to India . (16) are already in DH, (96) will be there in two days. I’ll then have some 250+ heavies. They should help the struggle for Burma.
As to the Indian Ocean. I’ve asked GH for one additional house rule. Since the map doesn’t allow to stay clear of Java and Sumatra, which could easily be done IRL, I’ve asked GH to consider the last two Western hexes as off map hexes. A sort of virtual safe passage in the Ocean. I’m confident he’ll accept.

The carriers are useless without the Hellcats, GH is way too good to be defeated in a carriers engagement. Right now he has better pilots and better planes, I need to have – at least – better planes to stand a chance.
Hence I’m only going to use the CV’s to try to ambush a smaller force. If he doesn’t know I’m there he may bring a force strong enough for the British but not for the combined fleet. In the Pacific I’ll never enjoy the surprise.

AUSTRALIA
I’m moving Liberators and Dakota’s to India, plus some nice US units.
The carriers remain in Sidney, at least for now.

PACIFIC
The first Fast Transport TF (21 DD’s and DMS’s) has left Bora Bora for Toganrapu. Pioneers on board.
It’ll take 2-3 weeks before the atoll will be safe enough from a sudden Japanese attack, but so far it’s worth trying. If I succeed I’ll have a base from which I can attack Fiji and Canton. I’m calling this operation ‘Snake’.





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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/11/2005 12:27:43 AM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I know GH is asking on his AAR , so I'll ask here as well.

I proposed a house rule to allow safe passage between India and Australia.

My opinion is that the Allies could (and did) easily find a safe passage to India by going nearer to Africa.
GH replies that since he cannot conquer Africa he has no way to prevent my passage.
He also argues that then his Chinese units should be allowed to leave China.
I do believe the the Chinese units represent a political issue. Such as not using Soviet airfields or having locked HQ for the Allies.
While the passage represents a map issue. I cannot get out of recon range by just a few hexes.

Please let me have your opinion.

Thanks


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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/11/2005 9:27:14 AM   
Bliztk


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Status: offline 		You dont need to move troops from India to Australia, if you want to reinforce SEAC, you can move the unit to West coast and change the HQ to Southeast Asia, the unit will appear in Karachi in 60 days, ***with no risks involved***, of course you can do it if you have spare PPs

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/11/2005 12:54:01 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

You dont need to move troops from India to Australia, if you want to reinforce SEAC, you can move the unit to West coast and change the HQ to Southeast Asia, the unit will appear in Karachi in 60 days, ***with no risks involved***, of course you can do it if you have spare PPs


Yep, I know, but it sounds gamey.
However if we'll agree to stick to the game map limits I'll go for it.

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/11/2005 1:12:06 PM   
Bliztk


Posts: 779
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From: Electronic City
Status: offline 		It`s not gamey, its here to represent the Cape Horn route. If you want to reinforce India it`s thats the way

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/11/2005 1:21:08 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline 		Hi,

I think it's some kind of non-issue. Some USAAF airgroups that arrive early in the game and are attached to SEAC arrive at SF, but the ones that arrive later make their arrival at Karachi. Historically even the one that arrive at SF took the Cape-route, but it seems that the developers deliberately decided to have them arrive at SF to give players' some operational freedom in what to do with them. And that seems fair even if it may be historically correct (one may even count this as some kind of advantage given to Allied players). And the Cape-route from South Africa was not always safe, at least the threat of Japanese raiders and subs (and not to forget German raiders and subs) existed in real life. While the map-edge is some kind of problem, it seems not to be unfair that it is in the game considering that the Allied player receives unlimited supplies at Karachi and Bombay without risking ships to transport them.

In short: I think that there is no houserule necessary. Simply accept the threat to your shipping between Australia and India as it is. Use carriers to protect this sealane if you deem it necessary and use the "teleport" feature to transport LCU's between SF and Karachi as it seems that this possibility is in the game to do just this (and 60 days seem quite realistic). Just my two (€) cent!

K

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RE: Part II - A lunatic is back - 10/11/2005 8:00:51 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Ok, I'm quite convinced.
Thanks for your opinion.

I haven't had the time to write about the last two turns, but I made one discovery.

Canadian units converted to Southeast Asia (in SF), reappear 59 days later in Edmonton (Canada), hence teleporting works only for US units.
Well at leat the PPs are not lost, just postponed by two months.

As to the route between Australia and India I'll send one ship at a time. To reduce potential losses and detection.
Anyway I only need to carry a few things:
- Para Marine Bn (already on its way on two different ships and TFs)
- 1 squadron of Wildcats (because I've got pleanty of them and they convert into Corsair's)
- 1 squadron of (72) P-40, to get to 200+
- a few more Dakota's
The rest will go with teleporting.

Later tonight the next post.

Cheers

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Summer '42 - 10/12/2005 12:53:58 AM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		August 10th, 1942

INDIA-BURMA
No big news. I’m gathering the heavies in Ledo, from where I’m flying recon missions over China.
I want to pick an airfield for a big air strike.
I’ll wait for the newly arrived B-24D’s to repair. So far (48) have arrived via Pontianak and Cebu. Unfortunately I did not issue the orders for one turn (I sent the wrong file to GH ) and I left one squadron of (16) B-24D for two turns in Pontianak, as a result (air and naval bombing) they are all damaged and I cannot move them out and reassemble them in DH. At worst it’ll be (16) planes lost.
I’m planning to move some (80) more. At 16-21 per turn.
The Japs bombings kill 2-3 every turn, but it’s worth the price of moving them around.
I’ve unloaded the 23rd Chindit Bde in Ceylon (you got me worried ) and I moved out (to DH) the 18th UK Division. Now Ceylon has some 600- Assault Points, it should be enough. What do you think?
Ramree build up continues and I’m now unloading supplies on the beach (no port yet). One base force units will start unloading next turn.

AUSTRALIA
I’m still undecided on the CV’s use. I have (3) in Sidney with (4) BB’s and lots of cruisers and destroyers.

PACIFIC
The Fast TF has not been detected yet, it should unload the first group in Toganrapu tomorrow night. It’ll be a long and dangerous operation. If he catches me in the middle I risk loosing all the units already in Toganrapu. But if I succeed I stand some very real chances of retaking Fiji by late ’42 / early ’43.

------------------------------------------

The valiant B-24D’s getting to India





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RE: Summer '42 - 10/12/2005 2:01:40 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
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Status: offline 		I am torn on the Java issue I can see both arguments.

Personally I hate to admit it but I think interdiction should be allowed.

If the IJN want to commit forces to that route let them.

The key for the allies is to use many small convoys evenly spaced to keep detection values down and limit losses if he gets into your convoys.

i.e. 1 escort and 3 merchant ships every few days.

have multiple convoys carry LCU's etc etc if you dont use superconvoys and hug the map edge he would need to have carriers out there to hit you

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Post #: 384
RE: Summer '42 - 10/12/2005 2:12:33 AM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Hey Andy,

Thanks for your feedback.

I guess I was wrong . I'll manage to get whatever I need through the dangerous waters . Single ship convoys every other week.
Troops can be teleported. I only need a couple more of fighter squadrons and I'm done. Hence no major deal.

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RE: Summer '42 - 10/12/2005 2:15:48 AM   
Andy Mac

 

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Status: offline 		I would also send a second wildcat sqn as you have plenty of replacements for it whereas P40's are one shot deals with there low replacements and 48 Wildcats upgrading to corsairs could allow you to send one of them to China to upset his bombers imagine 24 Corsairs getting in amongst Oscars or nates <evil grin>

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RE: Summer '42 - 10/12/2005 2:16:22 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I am torn on the Java issue I can see both arguments.

Personally I hate to admit it but I think interdiction should be allowed.

If the IJN want to commit forces to that route let them.

The key for the allies is to use many small convoys evenly spaced to keep detection values down and limit losses if he gets into your convoys.

i.e. 1 escort and 3 merchant ships every few days.

have multiple convoys carry LCU's etc etc if you dont use superconvoys and hug the map edge he would need to have carriers out there to hit you


The key to success for the Japanese player is to put a picket line of subs perpendicular from the Left Map Edge and base his CVLs and CVEs in the DEI ports on the Indian Ocean. Then as the subs detect the slow convoys, the CVLs steam out, sink the convoys, then steam back. In the meanwhile, the KB can be out in the Pacific, keeping the US fleet carriers "honest".

And if the Japanese player is particularly agressive, he can use Ceylon to cut the interdiction distance in half. That's what PzB did to me when I was playing him. There was no way through.

The "moral of the story" for the Allied player is to stengthen India from the very beginning so that you don't have to risk panic convoys if India is attacked.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

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RE: Summer '42 - 10/12/2005 2:18:59 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		And if India is attacked and he is going for Karachi all bets are off and those static West Coast 15" forts shold be teleported to India I dont care if its gamey IMO so is going for Karachi in the 1st place.

IMO all bets are off if total conquest of India is really threatened !!!!!

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 388
RE: Summer '42 - 10/12/2005 2:21:00 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Agreed ADavidB that game was nasty as PZB did cutoff very well.

I have to admit that ever since PZB did that I have not ever overcommitted to Burma or java or Sumatra in any PBEM and I reinforce India from day 1 including a couple of Seabee units to help build forts ASAP he has singlehandedly made me paranoid about a backwater theatre of operation ;)

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 389
RE: Summer '42 - 10/12/2005 2:28:39 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Agreed ADavidB that game was nasty as PZB did cutoff very well.

I have to admit that ever since PZB did that I have not ever overcommitted to Burma or java or Sumatra in any PBEM and I reinforce India from day 1 including a couple of Seabee units to help build forts ASAP he has singlehandedly made me paranoid about a backwater theatre of operation ;)


Losing Karachi turns a "backwater" into a real "ball breaker" - let me assure you of that!

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 390
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