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List of WPO planes - 9/4/2005 9:34:13 AM   
Jorm


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A long while ago now there was a list of planes that were going to featurei n WPO. After scanning through the forum and faq i dont seem to be abel to find them..

anyw one have a list ?

ta
Paul
Post #: 1
RE: List of WPO planes - 9/4/2005 9:47:32 AM   
Tankerace


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I suppose there is no harm:

For Japan:

Fighters:
Sopwith Pup (2 versions)
Sopwith Sparrowhawk (2 versions)
Mitsubishi 1MF-1, 2, 3, 3A, 4, and 5
Nakajima A1N1

Recce:
Mitsubishi C1M
Heinkel HD25
Aichi AB2 Type 2
Kawasaki KDA-2

Bomber:
Mitsubishi B1M-1 and -2
Avro 504L and K

Flying boat:
Felixstowe F.2

US Navy:

Carrier Fighters:
Vought VE-7SF
Curtiss F6C-1 Hawk
Boeing FB-1
Vought FU-1 (2 versions, wheel and float)
Curtiss F6C-4 Hawk
Boeing FB-5
Boeing F4B-1

Bombers and Carrier Recce
Martin SC-1 (wheeled)
Martin SC-2 (float)
Martin T3M
Martin T4M
Vought VE-9 (2 versions)
Vought UO-1 (2 versions)
Vought O2U Corsair (2 versions)

Submarine Launched:
Martin MS-1

Flying Boat
Curtiss H-16
Curtiss F5L

US Army Air Corps:
Fighters and recce:
de Havilland DH-4 fighter, DH-4 Bomber, DH-4B, DH-4M recce planes
Cutriss P-1A, B, C Hawks
Boeing PW9 A and C
Curtiss P-3 Hawk
Boeing P-12

Bombers/Attack planes
Curtiss A-3 Falcon
Martin NBS-1

Royal Navy/Air Force.
Fighters:
Sopwith 2F1 Camel (2 versions)
Gloster Grebe Mk I
Airco DH-4
Sopwtih 7F1 Snipe
Gloster Grebe Mk II
Gloster Gamecock Mks I and II
Armstrong Siskin

Bombers:
Sopwith Cuckoo
de Havilland DH-9A
Bristol F2b Brisfit
RAF R.E.8

Recce:
Fairey IIIC
Fairey IIID (2 Versions)

Flying Boat:
Felixstowe F.2A
Felixstowe F.5

The Netherlands:
Fairey III (used on Java class cruisers)

All told, 73 different aircraft. Plus, the British air art is included with the Japanese art, in case players or we wish to make War Plan Red scenarios.

_____________________________

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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Jorm)
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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/4/2005 8:27:07 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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I see a number of carrier planes for the Americans, since the Saratogas will be battle cruisers, that leaves Langley as the only American carrier doesn't it? Or will there be other carriers in the game? Also for the Japanese that would similarly leave Hosho wouldn't it?

edit: Also, will there be any sea plane tenders or were sea plane tenders a later development in naval warfare?



Gary

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 9/4/2005 8:39:56 PM >

(in reply to Tankerace)
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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/4/2005 8:38:38 PM   
Terminus


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I won't step on Tanker's toes by telling you that there will be others, for all parties...

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/4/2005 8:52:46 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I won't step on Tanker's toes by telling you that there will be others, for all parties...


Fantastic! I already feel a mod coming on: "Carrier War: 1924"!



Gary

(in reply to Terminus)
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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/4/2005 9:19:39 PM   
Tankerace


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The US get the Langley, and 2 converted merchies (hypothetical).
Japan gets 2 Hoshos (one of which was actually built, but scrapped before completion) plus 2 additonal hypothetical Hoshos.
Britain gets Furious and Argus, plus Vindictive which is recoverted to a scout cruiser in 1924.

In addition, the US has the seaplane carrier Aroostock (which also doubles as a minelayer!) and the Japanese the Wakiyama.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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Post #: 6
RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/4/2005 10:13:47 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

The US get the Langley, and 2 converted merchies (hypothetical).
Japan gets 2 Hoshos (one of which was actually built, but scrapped before completion) plus 2 additonal hypothetical Hoshos.
Britain gets Furious and Argus, plus Vindictive which is recoverted to a scout cruiser in 1924.

In addition, the US has the seaplane carrier Aroostock (which also doubles as a minelayer!) and the Japanese the Wakiyama.


I'm sure it's too late but it would have been neat to include "convert to CV" as an option for merchantmen along with the ability to convert them into tenders and such. BTW, will the option to convert ships into tenders still be available at San Fran and Osaka in WPO?



Gary

(in reply to Tankerace)
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RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/4/2005 10:21:18 PM   
Belphegor


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quote:

I'm sure it's too late but it would have been neat to include "convert to CV" as an option for merchantmen along with the ability to convert them into tenders and such. BTW, will the option to convert ships into tenders still be available at San Fran and Osaka in WPO?


As near as I remember without looking those options are still there, plus two more to convert merchantmen to two types of Q-ship. I'm investing heavily in those.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
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RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/4/2005 10:21:39 PM   
Terminus


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I'd like to answer, but this should probably be done by Tanker...

Okay, since Belphegor has now attracted Tanker's wrath onto himself, I'll answer. The tender conversions ARE there.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 9/4/2005 10:22:25 PM >


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RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/4/2005 10:27:11 PM   
Tankerace


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Its a little different in WPO. You can convert to Supply Ships (AE), Destroyer Tender (AD), Submarine Tender (AS), and Repair Ship (AR).

In addition, you can covert to Q Ships (AK), and Commerce Raider/Auxilliary Cruisers (CLs). The screen says Q Ship ML, as these also fulfill that role too.

I toyed with carrier conversions, but I decided I wanted to keep the focus on battleship warfare, instead of letting pople build a hundred caarriers (with no planes to equip them).

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 10
RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/4/2005 10:27:50 PM   
Tankerace


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Hehehe, no wrath. Jeez guys, I'm not THAT bad

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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/4/2005 10:38:38 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Hehehe, no wrath. Jeez guys, I'm not THAT bad


Please don't hurt us, Master! We meant no harm!

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RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/4/2005 10:42:40 PM   
Belphegor


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quote:

Okay, since Belphegor has now attracted Tanker's wrath onto himself


You won't believe what he said to me. I've never heard such language.

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RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/5/2005 4:01:33 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Its a little different in WPO. You can convert to Supply Ships (AE), Destroyer Tender (AD), Submarine Tender (AS), and Repair Ship (AR).

In addition, you can covert to Q Ships (AK), and Commerce Raider/Auxilliary Cruisers (CLs). The screen says Q Ship ML, as these also fulfill that role too.

I toyed with carrier conversions, but I decided I wanted to keep the focus on battleship warfare, instead of letting pople build a hundred caarriers (with no planes to equip them).


Understood. I'm not worried. I've already got some cool ideas for a mod on early carrier warfare.

But...it would be kind of cool if there were a production system or an economic side in WitP/WPO whereby one could choose how many merchantmen to build and what class, how many battleships, what class, how many cruisers, how many air groups, how many LCUs and so on. Of course I understand that would involve completely reinventing the game. However I can't help but dream.

Perhaps a WitP 2 could have such an economic system. I think it would be cool to blend the realism of WitP with the gaminess of a typical TBS game with a fully fleshed out production system and an economy to back it up, whereby one had complete control over what to build and how many. I know that's not what WPO is about but I'm a die hard UV/WitP fan and I just hate to see a good thing like it put out into the pasture when there is so much potential still there for it.



Gary

(in reply to Tankerace)
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RE: Converting Mechantmen - 9/5/2005 7:39:02 PM   
EasilyConfused

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Its a little different in WPO. You can convert to Supply Ships (AE), Destroyer Tender (AD), Submarine Tender (AS), and Repair Ship (AR).

In addition, you can covert to Q Ships (AK), and Commerce Raider/Auxilliary Cruisers (CLs). The screen says Q Ship ML, as these also fulfill that role too.

I toyed with carrier conversions, but I decided I wanted to keep the focus on battleship warfare, instead of letting pople build a hundred caarriers (with no planes to equip them).


Understood. I'm not worried. I've already got some cool ideas for a mod on early carrier warfare.

But...it would be kind of cool if there were a production system or an economic side in WitP/WPO whereby one could choose how many merchantmen to build and what class, how many battleships, what class, how many cruisers, how many air groups, how many LCUs and so on. Of course I understand that would involve completely reinventing the game. However I can't help but dream.

Perhaps a WitP 2 could have such an economic system. I think it would be cool to blend the realism of WitP with the gaminess of a typical TBS game with a fully fleshed out production system and an economy to back it up, whereby one had complete control over what to build and how many. I know that's not what WPO is about but I'm a die hard UV/WitP fan and I just hate to see a good thing like it put out into the pasture when there is so much potential still there for it.



Gary


I agree sounds great...for WITP 2. :)

(in reply to GaryChildress)
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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/11/2005 3:47:43 AM   
Jorm


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Tanker another plane to consider for the japanese is the Nieuport_delage NiD.29.C2
It seems the french exported 609 of tyhem to Japan in the 20's. Well, at least the refenence i have says that. It started service in 1922 and remained in service till 1928..

appearing in those sorts of numbers it may rate a look.
Ist a one seater fighter and was licence built as the Nakajima Ko 4

cheers
paul


< Message edited by Jorm -- 9/11/2005 5:17:07 PM >

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/23/2005 6:44:02 AM   
Jorm


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Van Berkel WB
Six licence-built versions of Hansa Brandenburg W.29 to NEI, October 1920, in recce floatplane role. Serialled E-1 to E-6. Used 1920 to 1933.
[See Air Britain Digest Summer 1995 for Van Berkel history]

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 5:52:57 AM   
Jorm


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Six Douglas Torpedo (DT-2) aircraft of Torpedo Squadron 20 were ferried out to Cavite aboard the USS Vega (AK-17) and arrived in Cavite in mid- February 1924 after a 40-day passage from San Diego, California.[a] They were the backbone and sinew of Aircraft Squadrons, Asiatic.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ACTC/actc-3.html
(a) Navy Directory, 1924; (b) Greer; (c) DANFS, I, p. 17.

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 6:34:56 AM   
Tankerace


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True. However, I chose not ot model this squadron, because if you read further:

"Everything in supporting resources for the Squadron over the next few years was in the nature of an improvisation. "Aircraft Squadrons Asiatic exists solely to provide a groundwork to be built upon" was the way Admiral "

and

"The hand-to-mouth existence of the Navy in the lean-national defense days of the Coolidge Administration is illustrated by a quote from Commander Turner's official report. The new torpedo planes, he noted, "were received without any spare parts whatsoever." These T3M-2s were one engine tractor biplanes with twin floats, built by Martin in 1926-27. "Spares did not begin to arrive until March" 1928.[35] Not only was the supply end of logistics spotty, but adequate personnel were lacking. Only five aviators, including Commander Aircraft Squadrons, and 33 enlisted men were assigned to the squadron. "

So, logistically and combat wise, this squadron couldn't have contributed anything, and in the WitP engine couldn't be modeled effectively. Within the engine, it would be treated as a combat ready squadron, that could draw the planes it needed, and pilots it needed, and attack effectively. So, while I would like to put it in, game wise it would be too ahistorical.

I also chose not to model the DT-2 (or the more numerous DT-1) because in the 1920's there were so many variations of aircraft used, I could have filled up all the aircraft slots with just US Aircraft. For all squadrons in the Pacific at the time (sans VT-20, which was nothing more than a paper squadron), the Martin SC-1, SC-2, T3M and T4M would work just as well. There were 91 DTs built (including 38 DT-2s), but their were well over 300 Martin Torpedo planes. This was one of things I decided to do from a scenario standpoint, rather than an era standpoint.

I may add these and more planes in the future (I probably will), but right now WPO is (from our standpoint) done, and now we are trying to get Matrix to do its thing to get it out to you guys. FOr everything I add now, more time will need ot be spent in testing, and the longer it will take to get out to you guys.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 6:48:49 AM   
Bodhi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

So, while I would like to put it in, game wise it would be too ahistorical.



Don't you have quite a few "hypothetical" ships in WPO? Aren't these also "ahistorical"?


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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 6:56:23 AM   
Tankerace


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Yes. By Ahistorical I meant that, the squadron had 6 planes and 5 pilots. There was no chance that it could get anymore for months. Perhaps ahistorical isn't the word. Unfeasible would be better. Yes, WPO is in itself ahistorical and hypothetical, but I am presenting it in a realistic way. That may make no sense, so let me clarify. It is ahistorical in the sense that never were designs are including, but it is not a historical in the since that I don't want to present situations that couldn't have happened.

In peace, this particular Sqdrn. had 6 planes, and 5 pilots. It was that way from 1924 until 1928 or later. Now, in a war footing, replacements for that squadron would be even less, as the U.S. attempted to put together a relief convoy for the PI. Still, I could make the max planes 6, and create the DT-2, with replacement rates of 1 or 2. The squadron could upgrade to SC-1s or T3Ms, and just ditch the DT to get back into the war. This would let Jorm have his DTs yet not totally skew plausible history.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 7:23:27 AM   
Jorm


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harrrr

no worries tanker
i can add this stuff in later my self if i get off my fat bum

just posted that last post for discuission
I agree with Bodhi there though
while VT20 may not have been supported at the time, the planes where there and i suspect on a war footing some extra pilots would have been found even ex WWI retreads.

also i an a werido and like all those little 'odds and sods' units that existed but you dont hear much about.

still, looking forward to this game very muhc and most of my posts about planes are really some thing for people to look at while we wait for its relase

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 7:36:48 AM   
Tankerace


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That's quite OK. Adding in the plane is no trouble, since its the weekend I doubt anyone from Matrix has even started the gears turning yet. Just finished the art, and now Im adding VT-20 with them, as well as VT-2 (arriving in '23).

After this though, don't think I can add much more in, gots to get this out sometime

Truth be told, I've been considering adding it (The DTs) in for some time.


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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 7:41:40 AM   
Jorm


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<insert mighty cheer>



now did you get those Dutch planes in as well .. lol


< Message edited by Jorm -- 9/26/2005 7:42:15 AM >

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RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 7:44:48 AM   
Tankerace


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Wow,I hate to break it to you, but this thing would be a flaming POS in COmbat. If this one sourcce is correct....14.5 minutes to get to 5,000 feet. With another source saying 10min to 3,850 feet, that's a climb rate of roughly 350ft/min, and a max altitude of 7,400 feet.

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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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Post #: 25
RE: List of WPO planes - 9/26/2005 7:45:17 AM   
Tankerace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

<insert mighty cheer>



now did you get those Dutch planes in as well .. lol



Yerp.

_____________________________

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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

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RE: List of WPO planes - 10/12/2005 4:54:28 AM   
Slotermeyer

 

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No Douglas C-1 cargo/transport aircraft or any other transport aircraft?

For info on US air transport aircraft: http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/cargo/c1/c0.htm

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We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy. -- US Chief Justice Jackson at Nuremberg trials



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RE: List of WPO planes - 10/12/2005 5:19:27 AM   
Tankerace


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I thought about adding in some, but I came to the conclusion that all transport aircraft of the time couldn't carry troops (six passengers to a plane, it would take a year to move a regiment ). I felt that the only viable mission they could do was supply transport, but given the limited availability of airfields available, I felt that this could be handled by the flyingboats.

On a more historical note however, only the Douglas C-1C was produced in limited (17) numbers in the time frame of WPO. With their relatively small payload, few planes, and no spares, they never would have been committed to combat.

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Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

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RE: List of WPO planes - 10/12/2005 4:23:36 PM   
TSCofield

 

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I guess a question would have to be asked, "What would have really happened if war had broken out?" You are right, the aircraft and transports of the day were pretty primitive but then again, comparing 1940 to 1945 the aircraft seemed relatively primitive. There were only a handful of airframes present in 1940 that were viable (read viable here) combat aircraft in 1945. Most of those were considered brand new in 1940. The top of the line aircraft at the beginning of the war were either in second line service at the end of the war (Hurricaines, P-40s, etc) or were really close to the end of their productive period. Every single fighter and bomber at the beginning of the war was supplanted by at least one type that was superior in every way. If the war had gone on a year longer I suspect that almost all of the original front line aircraft would have been relegated to second line service. Only the desperate need of the Japanese and Germans kept aircraft like the Zeke and He111 in service. In Britain or the US these aircraft would have been scrapped or used as trainers after 1943.

I suspect that once the war started aircraft production would have sped up in earnest. You are right, the C1 would have been a very limited aircraft in 1925, but probably not in 1927. It could have been the impetus for a whole new range of aircraft production. I am not saying you need to make up aircraft but there were hundreds of designs from Boeing, Douglas, DeHavellin and such that would have been pushed through completion with war contracts. Aircraft looked upon as prototypes in the 1920's would have been pushed through to production.

Likewise I am not sure about the lack of carriers. Sure in 1924 there was probably not much impetus to create more 'modern' style fleet carriers but the fact that Japan, Britain and the US were even considering changing their battlecruisers over to carriers meant that there was some thought to such a thing. I cannot imagine that they wouldn't take a CL or CA and not convert it to a fast carrier. The scouting benefits alone would be worth the risk. I suspect the fleet carriers in the 1920s would have looked more like the Lexington and Kaga models, large with a fairly heavy surface defense package but I doubt the war would have progressed without any side considering converting more fast ships to carrier operations. Even if they didn't make carriers as strike ships they would have been invaluable as scouting ships.


Just my opinions here.

< Message edited by SimHq Tom Cofield -- 10/12/2005 5:42:01 PM >


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Post #: 29
RE: List of WPO planes - 10/13/2005 12:05:03 AM   
Tankerace


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I do have aircraft procudion increasing in WPO, for fighters, bombers, flying boats, carrier planes, everything. My point about the C1 is with a light payload and 6 passenger capacity, the only use it would be (in combat) would be liason transport, or as an air ambulance (of which some C-1s were used). However, the game engine cannot handle this.

As to aircraft carriers, as far as I can tell For Japan, the Amagi/Tosa conversions were done only after the Washington Treaty cancelled their construction. Kaga and Tosa were very near completion (Tosa was already launched), and while it is debatable, it is my contention they would never have been converted to carriers, in view of the battleship admirals. Around 1918, there was some talk of converting one or more of the Lexingtons into aircraft carriers. However, it would seem to me (and again, this is my take) that if the Amagi's and Tosas were completed, then to match them the Lexingtons would be aswell.

Now, what I did find in my research is plans to convert fast merchants or liners into aircraft carriers, should war break out. There were such plans on both sides. The problem? Such ships as deemed "suitable" for conversion wouldn't come in to service until the late 1920s, and by the time they could be converted, WPO would be over.

Now, what I have done is given each side two additional carriers, based along these designs. However, I have made a concession, reducing a the aircraft capacity but giving a lsightly faster speed.

The total carriers in WPO: 4 Japanese, 3 American, 3 British. As to taking a CL or CA to a carrier, I thought about it too. But CAs, while lare enough, were too slow, and while they could keep pace with the battle line, they couldn't scout ahead (and Japan didn't posses any new CAs, only older ones that would be unsuitable). Light and Scout cruisers of the time, while fast enough, were to small and cramped. While they could launch and recover aircraft (as proved by The Pennsylvania, Birmingham, and Seattle), they would be too cramped to store aircraft, or at least any resonable compliment.

I weighed all of this very carefully. Of converted cruisers, the only effective means they could do is a Seattle style conversion with a light landing deck built over the after turret (but to fraile for "modern" aircraft, and mount a small (4-6) seaplane contingent. I do not believe, given the battleship mentality of the time (especially if we look at no Washington Treaty, and no reason to look away from the BB) that big gun admirals would justify such a conversion.

It is also my contention that the Lexingtons and such wouldn't be converted during a war, as such conversion have almost always been stopped for favor of new construction. So, the lighter, merchant carriers seemed in my eye to be the best way to go.

Now, if WPO was set in the 1930s, with faster cargo ships and liners, there would definately be more carriers. But in the 1920s, the bases for them didn't exist, and with no Washington Treaty, politically, the battleship admirals would have fought tooth and nail to keep their new toys from being turned in to "military experiments". Remeber, even in 1921, the aircraft was regarded as a harmless toy, and even Billy Mitchell sinking the Alabama and Ostfriesland didn't completely shake that foundation.

The other draw back to mass carriers for scouting is short range. The little carrier aircraft can usually go no more than 3 hexes, and the carriers themselves no faster than the battle line. Now since by the time they would come in to service the big dreadnoughts are all refitted with catapults and have squadrons of their own, and as to fleet protection, the Japanese get a squadron of Sopwith Pups or Gloster Sparrowharks which can fly off platforms on battleships, and the Americans get 4 squadrons of Battleship Fighters, Vought Fu-1s with floats that can fly off battleship catapults. In my eye, with all this, the need for several carriers would have been filled by the few conversions available.

These were just the conclusions I drew from the research I did, and why I had decided to abandon carrier conversions.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to TSCofield)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> War Plan Orange: Dreadnoughts in the Pacific 1922 - 1930 >> List of WPO planes Page: [1]
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