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Hello - 10/14/2005 5:13:09 AM   
PanzersEast


Posts: 96
Joined: 7/17/2005
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Hello Gents,

I have been around these forums for a while now, although I have hot purchased the game. I have been trying to figure out if I should purchase this game after I was burnt by Imperial Glory I have been apprehensive on any new purchase to say the least. I have always played WW2 games and IG was my first of the N. era game I have purchased.

It seems to me that the devs are trying hard to make this game to what the player expects/wants and that goes a long way with me. I was just wondering (without a repost of what has been said before) what sets this game apart from other games... what stands out?


< Message edited by PanzersEast -- 10/14/2005 5:16:44 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Hello - 10/14/2005 11:44:23 AM   
Grand_Armee

 

Posts: 809
Joined: 7/5/2005
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Hi Pz Ost,
I've been into Napoleonics for about 22 years, and have played every N game I could find short of going into miniatures. Like you I got highly disappointed by some that I dropped out of N. gaming for a while. This is the first game to bring me back. I've been waiting for this game since 1990.

The greatest potential of this game is the possibilities it brings to fore of playing other people online in realtime from the comfort of your own computer desk. PBM is available too. With diplomacy you can help your buddy or stab him in the back. Gain territory...lose a war, lose territory. Gang up on the "big guy". Try to be the "Big guy".

The detailed combat is pretty good and you're using division sized units. In battle you get more of a feeling of using battalion sized units.

You've already mentioned the commitment of the developers...which I think is excellent.

To tell you truthfully, this is the best 40 bucks I've ever spent.



(in reply to PanzersEast)
Post #: 2
RE: Hello - 10/14/2005 3:13:01 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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I'd recommend the game.

What stands out for me is that it's just dang fun. I can go through a list of the things I like/dislike, but in the end for me, when I consider a game, my biggest question of all is: Is the game fun? For me, the answer is a resounding yes. After the release of the latest beta patch, it's gotten even better.

_____________________________


(in reply to Grand_Armee)
Post #: 3
RE: Hello - 10/14/2005 4:23:53 PM   
cambronne

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 4/18/2004
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I have both this game and IG.
COG is a far deeper and more complicated game than IG ever could be.
I have not bothered with IG ever since I got my copy of COG.
I would recommend this game even though I am far from completely figuring it out.

(in reply to PanzersEast)
Post #: 4
RE: Hello - 10/14/2005 11:11:49 PM   
Barrold

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Status: offline
You had me at hello

Sorry

BDH

_____________________________

None of this is my fault.

(in reply to cambronne)
Post #: 5
RE: Hello - 10/14/2005 11:42:47 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

I'd recommend the game.

What stands out for me is that it's just dang fun. I can go through a list of the things I like/dislike, but in the end for me, when I consider a game, my biggest question of all is: Is the game fun? For me, the answer is a resounding yes. After the release of the latest beta patch, it's gotten even better.


This sentiment pretty much echos my own. You will inevitably find things you dislike about the game (as you would any game) but as a period piece, this is probably the best out there. I like the strategic level games on this period so I own this, Imperial Glory, & War and Peace (are there others?). Though I like all those games because they each do something different, as a whole I'd say this one is the best of the bunch.

And whatever you really think about the game, the commitment of the developers is top-notch. Probably approaching the best in the business from my gaming experience. That goes a long way in my book. Admittedly my book is filled with big pictures, few words, and something about Toto in it as well, but hey, my opinion still counts!

(in reply to Reiryc)
Post #: 6
RE: Hello - 10/14/2005 11:51:57 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barrold

You had me at hello

Sorry

BDH


hahah!

_____________________________


(in reply to Barrold)
Post #: 7
RE: Hello - 10/16/2005 10:37:41 PM   
Tigleth Pilisar

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 9/25/2005
Status: offline
I thought you might like the view of a Newbie who hasn't played many times.

The game has four major components:

Economic: I like what they have done here. They have incorporated complexity on a number of levels. From having a dozen types of goods to accumulate and use, to trading, to impact on production based on your taxation, feudal level and merchant ships. Each province is different. The underpinning concepts of the economic system are excellent.

In particular I really like how the supplying of armies is tied very much to economics. Being at full war readiness with a large army is very expensive - bankrupting really. A player has to worry about how he is going to maintain the supply and money for a large army, and in particular this depends on how far that army is from a "home province". I find the game has done a great job at capturing these concepts.

The problem with this system is that you never really get the info to know what is really happening. Some may disagree with me but there are too many production presentations (at least three different ways) which never reconcile. Some are pre-waste of goods production, some post, some estimate, some last turn's actual, some a country's modification numbers not production. So although the engine is quite good behind the scenes, the interface really makes the user "ball park" things. I understand this is being enhanced in the next fix, and is not a big enough issue not to like the game. Although I like what they have done in the programming of supply, from a user interface and reporting point of view it took me a long time to understand what the hell is going on with supply. Although you can figure it out, I've ended up just letting the computer do whatever it wants with supply since I don't find the reporting very good to the user. (ie: I just build supply depots where I know I need them, but don't really know the monetary consequence - I mean I could figure it out but it is too much work)

Development: Every province has ten different categories of development. The game isn't just about hack and slash, its about building a glorious nation and so this really adds another dimension. The development engine is again straight forward, but reporting is good only at the individual province level. Production has to be done at the provincial level with sliders as does development (not done via sliders but is done at a detailed provincial level). It might be nice to have better collective reports and administrative control. Bottom line the underlying engine is great, but it takes of time to use the engine properly because you have to scroll through all the provinces. For example, I can't quickly scan to see where I've got my best barracks provinces, or low culture or whatever.

Diplomacy: This is one of the best diplomatic engines I have seen. Diplomacy is a big part of the game with a ton of options that really makes game play wide open. Unfortunately I'm still not sure how to use all of these probably simple options, even after many hours of play. For example I see other AI controlled countries forming protectorates which I've never found options on how to do that. I use diplomat characters to influence attitude more than national policy. Bottom line this is a real trial and error system to learn all the ins and outs of - but the depth is there.

Military: This component is fantastic. First, there is the concept of military organization. Collections of units in armies, corps and divisions. The user controls the command structure and generals used in varies military formations he creates. There is also a system for navy. I also like that movement is simultaneous. You give orders, then simultaneously all nations' units try to perform them. Personally I really like this method.

Some quirks are that units are occassionally "lost" on the screen, unintentially disbanded, or impossible to disband, there is complexity with morale and unit attributes that are not transparent on how to influence, you can't control what units get reinforced, and the military details screens are not sorted in a meaningful way nor do they link to the rest of the game easily. But over all the global military system (strategic combat) is fantastic.

There is a second level of detail in the military section - tactical combat. This is where you can use "quick combat" to resolve conflicts or detailed combat. Personally, I love detailed hex combat games and so I just love the detailed combat. They have put in everything a Napoleon lover could want - supply, formations, morale, generals, line of sight, terrain types, weather, and other things. My only knock on detailed combat is that it is not simultaneous like the global strategic moves. Instead it is based on a combination of IGO UGO and a concept of initiative letting faster units move first in their entirety, then the next and so on. Also, I don't find the AI particularly bright on detailed combat. After a while, they are hard to loose to unless you are significantly outnumbered. I don't know if detailed combat is permitted in PBEM or multiplayer games, but it would be awesome to play against a human on this engine. This detailed combat segment is almost good enough to be a game itself.

Another good idea they have are the concept of "experts". If you want the AI to take over any of the above areas, you can let them. I'm not sure how this totally works, because you can still do things in an area you have an expert checked off, but he "may" change it. "May" isn't good enough for me - I seldom let the computer play my moves basically against itself, but it is great for people who don't want to worry about the management of a certain segment.

Overall, it is a great game with a great underlying engine. Some seem to catch on to the game right away, but I suspect those players don't sweat the details like I do - you can play without really understanding what you are doing. It is hard to really understand the detail of what the choices you make economically, diplomatically, even militarily are without some trial and error. This is because the system gives you reports much like tax returns after a turn is processed and gives relatively little or no information about the estimated result of a decision while you are making the move and your turn is active. But if you've got some time to invest learning by trial and error, you would be hard pressed to find a better thought out, multi-faceted Napoleonics game.

And I suppose a final blessing to buy the game comes from the quality of the people in this community. Because the game focuses on "substance" and not "eye candy", you get brighter players (and perhaps older players). I haven't posted much in the forums but I've found the players of this game intelligent, very willing to share and bring up others and generally quick to respond. The game designers also seem committed to improve the game via fixes.

(in reply to Reiryc)
Post #: 8
RE: Hello - 10/17/2005 9:57:12 PM   
Russian Guard


Posts: 1251
Joined: 10/14/2005
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Just a quick comment regarding the inability to determine at the absolute level, the precise action/reaction/specific outcome process in this game.

I think that's wonderful. Death to the min-max'ers!!


(in reply to Tigleth Pilisar)
Post #: 9
RE: Hello - 10/20/2005 9:42:47 PM   
Tigleth Pilisar

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 9/25/2005
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I think players should understand the precise outcome of planned actions. Some players might be comfortable using their intuition that a certain move is good for them and I'd love to play against those guys PBEM. Maybe a few players calculate effects outside of the computer game, but who has time for that. Where possible and reasonable a computer should do the work of telling you what should happen based on your plans. I think there can be better reporting in this regard. What kind of economist doesn't predict what might happen with a certain change in policy before doing it?

Fortunately the game has a large random element and is based on simultaneous resolution of the decisions of 8 players. So what you thought would happen goes out the window. That's the fun part.

In life there should be three aspects to everything you do: Plan, experience/live, and reflect - that way you get it 3 times . If you don't plan or reflect, you are missing out on 2/3rds of what life has to offer. And this game should help you plan - if it takes too long, no one will do it. Of course some things are spontaneous ... but the governing of a nation including its trade, diplomatic and military decisions should probably be a less spontaneous thing. Both in a real world sense, and in a fictitious winning the game sense. There are lots of other games out there where planning matters little - I thought the developers wanted gamers who liked a little more strategic thinking and planning.

But then I agree with your views of min/maxers. Its never realistic. And its never fun. Balance in everything .

(in reply to Russian Guard)
Post #: 10
RE: Hello - 10/20/2005 10:24:01 PM   
Naomi

 

Posts: 654
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
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Glad to have a, or one more, philosopher in this forum.

(in reply to Tigleth Pilisar)
Post #: 11
RE: Hello - 10/20/2005 10:40:26 PM   
Russian Guard


Posts: 1251
Joined: 10/14/2005
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Well...my post above was three sentences, two of them to express a thought intended to be humorous.

We don't really disagree, unless it's on the use of the word "precise". To have a fairly tight, reasonable expectation of the results of ones choices/actions in a game, are essential. Without which, the game becomes a meaningless series of guesses and random outcomes.

But without variables, without unknown quantities in the interplay between actions and results, the game can swiftly become a one-trick pony (everyone figures out the "best" way to do things) and the game becomes stale.

The only way to maintain some of that sense of mystery about outcomes, probabilities, and dynamic interplay of actions, is if the gaming company keeps at least a few critical pieces of their code, under the hood



(in reply to Tigleth Pilisar)
Post #: 12
RE: Hello - 10/20/2005 11:06:30 PM   
Naomi

 

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Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Osaka
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In order not to fumble through the COG-style darkness, I may better have a Greenspan on my board of guessers. Like the thread above, no word suggesting precision is involved and arguments spared. ^,^

(in reply to Russian Guard)
Post #: 13
RE: Hello - 10/21/2005 3:58:14 AM   
Tigleth Pilisar

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 9/25/2005
Status: offline
We're all on the same page. Happy gaming.

(in reply to Naomi)
Post #: 14
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