Defining "Elite"

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Defining "Elite" - 10/21/2005 12:17:45 AM

KG Erwin

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"Lately, I've been considering what makes military units effective over the long haul. There are a handful of divisions that are counted as, 'elite.' Among them are the 82nd Airborne, the Big Red One, and the 101st Airborne. Of course, special operations units are elite. No one would argue that point.

There is a very short list of military forces � as opposed to units � that are counted as elite. These include the French Foreign Legion and the Royal Marines. At the very top of this list is the United States Marine Corps. In terms of size and combat power, the Corps dwarfs many of the world's armies. Size alone doesn't equate to combat effectiveness. Neither does technology, seductive though it may be. So, what does?

The Marine Corps has a powerful ethos. 'Every Marine a rifleman,' is more than empty words. No matter what job he or she does, every Marine is trained to perform basic combat skills. From the moment recruits step on the yellow footprints, they begin an indoctrination into the traditions and heritage that stretch back to the dawn of America's history.

As a combat force, the Corps has developed a fighting reputation second to none. Every one of the Marine divisions can be classed as elite. No Marine division has ever lost a battle, nor failed to achieve its objectives. From the sands of Iwo Jima to the deserts of Kuwait and Iraq, when Marines are given a mission, they get the job done.

As the world has changed, so has the Marine Corps. Although it cherishes and maintains its traditions, it has evolved to maintain relevancy in the modern world. As an expeditionary force, the Marine Corps can draw of many years of campaigning to shape its future. The Corps doesn't need to search for a mission."

-- Mark "Devil Doc" Flowers, 16 October 2005
http://www.ww2gyrene.org/

Thanks for those thoughts, "Devil Doc". I agree with you 100%.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 10/21/2005 12:23:54 AM >

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/21/2005 8:04:05 PM

SuomiKp

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The Marine Corps has always got the job done because they have never met the Finns

on the battlefield

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/21/2005 9:34:15 PM

VikingNo2

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Okay would you like to play a Finn vs USMC battle ?

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 12:54:27 AM

KG Erwin

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Viking, you're always trolling for new victims, aren't you? However, I'd like for SuomiKp to prove his assertion, too.

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 1:26:15 AM

VikingNo2

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Opponents and as you know, thats was a Marines can't stand up to the Finns statement and who knows it may be true

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 4:02:14 AM

PimpYourAFV

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Erwin why don't you fight Viking and post an AAR about it? One can be the USMC and the other either Japan or Germany preferrably with the latter defending against an assault. That would be a good fight to see.

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 4:06:04 AM

Terminus

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Actually, I'd like to see a USMC vs Fins fight. Sometime after 1943, with heavy Marine firepower against Finnish Jaegers...

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 5:16:15 AM

KG Erwin

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I see that 1944 Finn Infantry squads have satchel charges and Molotovs, and the Engineers have something called a Flamegun. How did they get all this stuff? The answer, of course, is that they were so small in numbers. Let's go back 5 years. Despite their courage, a large army with massive artillery (AKA the Russians) smashed the Mannerheim Line in 1939 and forced the territorial concessions that drove the Finns into the arms of the Germans.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 10/22/2005 5:29:58 AM >

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 1:22:36 PM

Puukkoo

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They did not crush Mannerheim line in 1939. It happened in 1940, but still didn't take Viipuri.

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 1:36:15 PM

omegaall

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Gunny.. interesting comments from you.
BUT what is elite??

You make reference to some units but still have not made any real statemet on how to determine elite.

You may see the US Marine Corps as elite others may not.

I may see the Royal Marines as elite and No 1 vs you list. Here is a good example of different concepts of elite.

Also just winning every battle/conflict/getting the job done does not constitute elite. Like you said size of the unit/corps and its technology does not also make it elite either.

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 4:31:47 PM

Puukkoo

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And do not forget Finns Blitz Squads:

Suomi M/31 SMG (acc 2, kill 4)
7.62 DP LMG
7.62 DP LMG
Satchel Charge

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 4:44:23 PM

SuomiKp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

They did not crush Mannerheim line in 1939. It happened in 1940, but still didn't take Viipuri.

Didint they take Viipuri with pen and paper ?

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 4:47:53 PM

Puukkoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuomiKp

Didint they take Viipuri with pen and paper ?

And president Kallio said "May such a hand rot that undersigns such an agreement"

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 4:57:27 PM

Terminus

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Personally, I think the USMC have gotten too big to be elite (sorry, Gunny).

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 4:57:54 PM

SuomiKp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

Okay would you like to play a Finn vs USMC battle ?

I dont play Spwaw anymore , just making some noice

I have played Winspmbt 2.0 against AI now and then

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 6:04:44 PM

VikingNo2

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I think it would be a good battle I see if I can get someone else to play it

I'm having a heck of a time leaning how to use arty properly in SPMBT

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 6:27:53 PM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

I think it would be a good battle I see if I can get someone else to play it

I'm having a heck of a time leaning how to use arty properly in SPMBT

I will try it...depot multi mod 2??
LOL

< Message edited by Alby -- 10/23/2005 12:51:53 AM >

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/22/2005 11:42:19 PM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: omegaall

Gunny.. interesting comments from you.
BUT what is elite??

You make reference to some units but still have not made any real statemet on how to determine elite.

You may see the US Marine Corps as elite others may not.

I may see the Royal Marines as elite and No 1 vs you list. Here is a good example of different concepts of elite.

Also just winning every battle/conflict/getting the job done does not constitute elite. Like you said size of the unit/corps and its technology does not also make it elite either.

Actually, the comments were not mine, if you revisit the first posting. I just happen to agree with what "Doc" said. Of course, Mark was both a Navy Corpsman serving with a Marine unit and later joined the Army (he was in Gulf War I), so there's a little "professional pride" in his commentary, too.

He is a good friend of mine, and I respect his opinions.

In SPWaW, the Marines are rated as "average" infantry, at least in 1941-42. For game purposes, the "elite" status is given to units like the 1942-43 Raiders. I always felt that earlier versions rated the USMC too high. These were changes that I proposed for the 8.3 OOB update, and they were accepted.

I don't have a personal definition of what "elite" really means. It's a subjective thing, and an exercise in rhetoric. Merriam-Webster defines "elite" as "the choice part, also a superior group"--that's a rhetorical statement in of itself.

Now, "esprit" is something else, and there's no doubt that the Corps has ALWAYS had that. However, it is also an indefinable trait that defies being measured objectively.

So, that's my best attempt at being a politician, and I'll firmly stick by my vagueness.

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/23/2005 1:15:14 AM

Alby

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This is "Elite"

Attachment (1)

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/23/2005 1:20:21 AM

Terminus

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So's this:

Attachment (1)

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/23/2005 1:29:39 AM

KG Erwin

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Well, then, so are these (for Marines with the "safety" on?)

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 10/23/2005 1:33:21 AM >

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/23/2005 3:57:35 AM

PimpYourAFV

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I see that 1944 Finn Infantry squads have satchel charges and Molotovs, and the Engineers have something called a Flamegun. How did they get all this stuff? The answer, of course, is that they were so small in numbers. Let's go back 5 years. Despite their courage, a large army with massive artillery (AKA the Russians) smashed the Mannerheim Line in 1939 and forced the territorial concessions that drove the Finns into the arms of the Germans.

You should read a book called "The Winter War" by William Trotter, one of the best military books I've read. The Russians were getting desperate for an end to it, either by breakthrough or peace agreement. Bad bunch them Russians were. Were it not for the Finns lack of ammo and a few more AT guns, the Russians would have gotten nowhere. The Finns didn't fire their arty unless a visible mob of attacking Russians was to be hit. This means they had to keep their fingers off the triggers even when Russian assembly areas were packed with juicy targets. Infantry charging tanks with satchel charges was the norm. The Finns are very brave.

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/25/2005 8:47:27 AM

sabrejack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

I think it would be a good battle I see if I can get someone else to play it

I'm having a heck of a time leaning how to use arty properly in SPMBT

OK - that's our next game. Feel free to set it up once you're done killing my Russians. I'll take either side.

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/26/2005 4:31:39 PM

RockinHarry

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IMO elite is troops with extensive prior combat experience, balls and selected as well as trained to survive and perform superior under many non standard combat situations that might be airborne training, winter warfare, guerilla warfare, electronics/communications and much more. I think neither a standard US marine nor SS combat unit applies to this nor do I think the US 82nd nor 101 AB would fall into this category. They surely were tough, well trained and highly specialized guys, but a german infantry division with 2-3 years service at the eastern front surely was as well or even more. I also think that anything that refers to an elite unit needs to be maintained over a long time period and neither the german SS nor Para units maintained their combat qualities for the duration of the war. The late war german Para units had not even jump training for the great majority of its personnel, nor were the SS selected and fit volunteers anymore.

were the finns elite? They cleverly made best use of what they had available, while the russians badly underappreciated these abilities. One can�t make one side elite only cause the other side performed exemplary bad.

What counts to have elite units if the higher leadership fails to make (good) use of them?

Leaves only the Rangers, SAS and Brandenburgers for "elite" status, not to be confused with SPWAW "elite" status which probably would be better described by effect with the term "above average"..maybe.

my 5 euro cents

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/26/2005 6:57:33 PM

VikingNo2

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What about Marine Raiders?

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/26/2005 7:40:08 PM

Nikademus

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Most previous Grigsby penned titles tend to define elite as exp 90 or better but then again thats using a scale of 0-99. WAW uses a 10-140 scale and defines "elite" as 100+ Always noticed that few scenario designers ever cross this threshold. Maybe they dont consider ANY organization as elite

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RE: Defining "Elite" - 10/27/2005 7:27:45 PM

Puukkoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Most previous Grigsby penned titles tend to define elite as exp 90 or better but then again thats using a scale of 0-99. WAW uses a 10-140 scale and defines "elite" as 100+ Always noticed that few scenario designers ever cross this threshold. Maybe they dont consider ANY organization as elite

True. I tend to make at least some units little better than the others. Especially those units who have historical leaders present.

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