RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 1:08:53 PM

Emx77

Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

What has to "stop"? Atack A never stopped because of attack B, if the Attack A is ordered at all.

Trigger both attacks in the same phase (the first one) and then you'll have both attacks play out for sure, even if you'll have no other phases in that turn.

People try to fumble with TOAW turn phases, trying to squeeze as many as possible, oftenly with no understanding of what goes on "behind the scene", very oftenly playing very badly designed scenarios to begin with and complain when things don't turn out 100% perfect as they imagined. Well that's war. Dice and rnd number generator are not always your friends.

Oleg

Let's make me clear. Imagine that you want to take four objectivs: two hills (obj1 and obj2) who dominates over two villages (obj 3 and obj4) during a 1 day turn. You have two regiments (A nad B) for this task. You prepared attack (or operation) � moved units designated for attack around first group of objectives (obj1 and obj2). Assumption is that these two attacks are independet which means that succes or failure of one cannot influence other in any way.

Your Regiment A --------------- Your Regiment B

attack vs. ----------------------- attack vs.

obj1 � Hill 1 --------------------- obj2 � Hill 2
obj3 � Village 1 ----------------- obj4 � Village 2

In attack planning dialog time expanded pane shows that both first attacks (directed against hills) will take approx. 10% of turn time. According to this you have planned first to take hills and then to move and clear villages. After clicking at resolve attacks button your first attack (commading by first subordinate officer) goes as planned and Regiment A takes "Hill 1".

But second attack (commanding by second subordinate officer) is taking much more then 10% of 1 day turn and the battle for "Hill 2" will be much longer then it is anticipated at first (let say that you need whole day of fighting to take "Hill 2").

What will happen? What influence will have battle for "hill 2" on results of operation of regiment A against "Hill 1" and "Village 1"?

In reality after taking "Hill 1" Regiment A will continue advance and take "Village 1" (if unoposed) or will start another battle (if "Village 1" is defended). Suppose that "Village 1" was lightly defended and taken witouth problems. Regiment A will continue their advance deeper in enemy rear or will stop and dig in for possible counter attack (all these action will be during a same day � turn). Outcome of operations undertaken by Regiment B will not have any impact on operations of Regiment A.

But in TOAW it will be a different story. After taking "Hill 1" Regiment A has to stop at the "Hill 1" and wait attack of Regiment B to be resolved elsewhere on map. As the battle for "Hill 2" need whole day to be resolved, Regiment A will fail to take second objective (Village 1) and to move some hexes further in enemy rear. Why? Because second attack of Regiment B resulted in early turn end. This wouldn't be a problem if these two operations are connected somehow and if succes of one have influence on another. But, under initial assumption, they are independet and one shouldn't have any impact to another (at least during one turn eg. one day in this case).

Situation above have nothing to do with scenario size or scenario design, and it is simplification of real TOAW scenarios where you can have much more then two indipendet attacks (operations). With increasing number of such attacks (operations) there is bigger chance that one of them lead to early turn ending.

I hope I was clear enough.

Emir

BTW I'm also not a member of TDG if that fact have anything to do with issue we are discussing here.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 10/23/2005 1:16:34 PM >

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 61

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 4:20:47 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeremy Mac Donald
It may well be the case that Norm never intended the engine to handle much of what we would like it to handle.

Bingo!

O.

_____________________________

(in reply to Jeremy Mac Donald)

Post #: 62

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 4:41:11 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
But second attack (commanding by second subordinate officer) is taking much more then 10% of 1 day turn and the battle for "Hill 2" will be much longer then it is anticipated at first (let say that you need whole day of fighting to take "Hill 2").

What will happen? What influence will have battle for "hill 2" on results of operation of regiment A against "Hill 1" and "Village 1"?

Yeah, and so what?

You are commanding whole operation here, not just Hill A and/or Hill B sub-operations. We may take it to simulate that problems in battle B required you to turn your attention there and postpone sub-operation A for any of the possible reasons that are beyond the scope of the game, or are modelled abstractly (reshuffling of supplies as Keke suggested

, staff work on more complicated battle, recon assets not being available etc.)

I will repeat one of my most important arguments in this thread (which was ignored by you all except Capitaine) - all operational IGO/UGO games make life for the attacker VERY easy. Anything that makes attacker's life harder is welcome in my opinion, even if it cannot be 100% logically explained for your taste.

(Turn based tactical games also make life for the attacker too easy, EVEN if they are not IGO/UGO, but since discussion about tac wargames is beyond the scope of this thread I won't expant this further here.)

Point is, in ideal TOAW scenario, Objective A and Objective B would not be half a continent away, they would be operationally inter-dependent to at least SOME degree. If, knowing all this, scenario designer chose to make Panzer division in Smolensk dependant on actions of Finnish ski batallion in Sala, then he, the scenario designer, has some wrong ideas about TOAW and scenario design OK?

If you chose to make such scenario anyway, and play it, you accept any weird result that may come out of any such scenario. Still, good scenario designers like Daniel McBride, found a way around many of the problems and quirks inherent to such schemes.

Two more points I wish to make (no make it three):

1. I didn't see any feasible, reasonable suggestion as to how to "correct" the "early turn end" pseudo-problem from you guys. Perhaps there was some such suggestion but I may have missed it? If there is no practical feasible solution, that does not require re-write of 60% of the game code, this whole discussion is moot.

2. TOAW development plans are clearly outlined in some "official" posts in recent days, and I highly doubt you'll see any substantial changes, so, again, this makes this whole discussion moot.

3. I will restate again what I consider to be very important point, ignored by many: IGO/UGO simplifies attacker's problems greaty, so anything that will make attacker's life harder is welcome.

Oleg

_____________________________

(in reply to Emx77)

Post #: 63

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 4:54:58 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I'm sorry, but the logic here goes as follows. All aspects of TOAW as it exists will be defended. There are never to be any changes -- ever. The system is perfect, damnit!

Hey, it worked for the Medieval Church.

Well there is some logic in that we who frequent this board loved and played TOAW for years so we obviously loved the game and how it works, warts and all if you wish. Those who may agree with you never played TOAW or left the game many years ago never to return, so you will not see their posts on this board at all.

1. System is not perfect, but is the best I know for what it *intends to portray*. Some of the changes suggested on this board lately want to change the game so much it will not be the same game (my absolute favorite is introduction of WITP-like production system in TOAW - too laughable to comment seriously).

2. Posts from Norm outlined dev plans for TOAW pretty clearly. You will not see any substantial changes, and many day dreamers better stop day dreaming right now lest they be disappointed by what future brings. (That I'm afraid includes you Colin.)

People have to realize purpose of the game is to work as designer intended, not as they want it to work in their wet dreams.

O.

_____________________________

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 64

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 5:16:32 PM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

1. I didn't see any feasible, reasonable suggestion as to how to "correct" the "early turn end" pseudo-problem from you guys. Perhaps there was some such suggestion but I may have missed it? If there is no practical feasible solution, that does not require re-write of 60% of the game code, this whole discussion is moot.

You didn't? So turn ending on formation-by-formation basis is not a reasonable suggestion?

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 65

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 5:20:11 PM

sstevens06

Posts: 276
Joined: 10/9/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

...

Point is, in ideal TOAW scenario, Objective A and Objective B would not be half a continent away, they would be operationally inter-dependent to at least SOME degree. If, knowing all this, scenario designer chose to make Panzer division in Smolensk dependant on actions of Finnish ski batallion in Sala, then he, the scenario designer, has some wrong ideas about TOAW and scenario design OK?

...

I think this is a key point Oleg is making - a number of scenarios, including some on the original CD, seem to ignore this. In the example of the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, it simply doesn't make sense to simulate both the Golan Heights and Suez Canal fronts on the same map in the same scenario, since these two fronts were not operationally linked (they were definitely related at the strategic level, but TOAW simulates the operational, not strategic, nor tactical for that matter, level of war). To properly simulate this conflict 2 separate scenarios are preferable to 1.

Now one could argue that it is within the operational scope of TOAW to be able to simulate the entire Eastern Front at 10km/hex, regimental-level, but that really is an extreme case and anomalous results are to be expected.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 66

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 5:24:56 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

1. I didn't see any feasible, reasonable suggestion as to how to "correct" the "early turn end" pseudo-problem from you guys. Perhaps there was some such suggestion but I may have missed it? If there is no practical feasible solution, that does not require re-write of 60% of the game code, this whole discussion is moot.

You didn't? So turn ending on formation-by-formation basis is not a reasonable suggestion?

Sounds reasonable, but how would it look in the game itself, and how much will it change the overall balance? (again, in favor of the attacker?). Would it be practical to implement?

It would require rewriting lots of code, and would change the game too much. I guess. I don't consider myself "know it all" kind of guy but I highly suspect it is too much work for what is planned for TOAW in near future.

Let me quote what Norm said about much-wished, and far less controversial hex-side river issue:

">Hexside rivers en route?

Not from me- too much work. But feel free to lobby Matrix with
your favorite wish lists. I think they'd be pleased if you guys
respond with a list of wonderful changes to implement."

End quote.

O.

_____________________________

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 67

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 5:30:24 PM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Sounds reasonable, but how would it look in the game itself, and how much will it change the overall balance? (again, in favor of the attacker?). Would it be practical to implement?

It would require rewriting lots of code, and would change the game too much. I guess. I don't consider myself "know it all" kind of guy but I highly suspect it is too much work for what is planned for TOAW in near future.

Let me quote what Norm said about much-wished, and far less controversial hex-side river issue:

">Hexside rivers en route?

Not from me- too much work. But feel free to lobby Matrix with
your favorite wish lists. I think they'd be pleased if you guys
respond with a list of wonderful changes to implement."

End quote.

O.

Well, we are not here to disguss about how feasible any changes are codewise. We discuss about what kind of changes experienced gamers have in mind. Even if there are no changes, we are free to dicuss about them, even if you are on the wrong side of the argument.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 68

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 5:38:20 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke
Even if there are no changes, we are free to dicuss about them, even if you are on the wrong side of the argument.

Like yourself?

_____________________________

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 69

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 5:58:04 PM

Capitaine

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline

It seems like those who militate to scrap the turn-ending feature of TOAW wish simply to have a generic "war simulator" rather than have the ability to design proper operational scenarios within the intended scope of Norm's design.

True, without the turn-ending feature, TOAW could become a garden variety IGO-UGO wargame. But it was the randomness and uncertainty introduced by Norm's revolutionary time usage feature that made the IGO-UGO more palatable, by introducing uncertainty and full turn planning into the mix.

Again I say, if you are against Norm's time usage feature, you are against TOAW. You might like a wargame creator game that can model any conflict, but that isn't TOAW.

(BTW, you can get what you want for all I care. TOAW did what it did, and made its mark; I have no interest in a democratically designed wargame anyway. Norm is the only one, IMO, worthy of making any changes consistent with his vision of his game. If Norm changed it, I would take notice. But he didn't, and he won't. Don't you think it's all there for a valid reason? Besides just an equipment database?)

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 70

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 6:18:52 PM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

Bloody hell, nobody wants to scrap the turn ending feature but to make it more versatile, more suitable for various scenarios.

And this self-righteous "if you are against feature X, you are against TOAW, Norm and democracy" -talk is just bloody stupid.

< Message edited by Keke -- 10/23/2005 6:21:56 PM >

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Capitaine)

Post #: 71

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 7:49:56 PM

Emx77

Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Yeah, and so what?

You are commanding whole operation here, not just Hill A and/or Hill B sub-operations.

Not exactly. I have ploted a plan for a day one (as supreme commander). Execution is at the lower level. Subordinate of Operation A doesn't need to care about how is progressing Operation B. He has his own objectives independet from Operation B.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I will repeat one of my most important arguments in this thread (which was ignored by you all except Capitaine) - all operational IGO/UGO games make life for the attacker VERY easy. Anything that makes attacker's life harder is welcome in my opinion, even if it cannot be 100% logically explained for your taste.

This is true. But maybe it will be better to complicate life for attacker in some other way than in this silly one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Point is, in ideal TOAW scenario, Objective A and Objective B would not be half a continent away, they would be operationally inter-dependent to at least SOME degree. If, knowing all this, scenario designer chose to make Panzer division in Smolensk dependant on actions of Finnish ski batallion in Sala, then he, the scenario designer, has some wrong ideas about TOAW and scenario design OK?

Why do you think this is related only to larger scenarios? In my example distance between two villages can be 10km not half a continent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Two more points I wish to make (no make it three):

I didn't see any feasible, reasonable suggestion as to how to "correct" the "early turn end" pseudo-problem from you guys. Perhaps there was some such suggestion but I may have missed it? If there is no practical feasible solution, that does not require re-write of 60% of the game code, this whole discussion is moot.

I remember game called "Johny Reb II" which I long time ago played on my C64. Two units which were engaged in combat for longer time were "in melee" status, and you was unable to move them untill battle was resolved, but you was able to move other units. There are also suggestions made by other players. Why not to try implementing some of them to see which one is best, and how will it work?

Emir

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 10/23/2005 7:55:02 PM >

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 72

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 9:52:43 PM

ColinWright

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Yeah, and so what?

You are commanding whole operation here, not just Hill A and/or Hill B sub-operations.

Not exactly. I have ploted a plan for a day one (as supreme commander). Execution is at the lower level. Subordinate of Operation A doesn't need to care about how is progressing Operation B. He has his own objectives independet from Operation B.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I will repeat one of my most important arguments in this thread (which was ignored by you all except Capitaine) - all operational IGO/UGO games make life for the attacker VERY easy. Anything that makes attacker's life harder is welcome in my opinion, even if it cannot be 100% logically explained for your taste.

This is true. But maybe it will be better to complicate life for attacker in some other way than in this silly one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Point is, in ideal TOAW scenario, Objective A and Objective B would not be half a continent away, they would be operationally inter-dependent to at least SOME degree. If, knowing all this, scenario designer chose to make Panzer division in Smolensk dependant on actions of Finnish ski batallion in Sala, then he, the scenario designer, has some wrong ideas about TOAW and scenario design OK?

Why do you think this is related only to larger scenarios? In my example distance between two villages can be 10km not half a continent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Two more points I wish to make (no make it three):

I didn't see any feasible, reasonable suggestion as to how to "correct" the "early turn end" pseudo-problem from you guys. Perhaps there was some such suggestion but I may have missed it? If there is no practical feasible solution, that does not require re-write of 60% of the game code, this whole discussion is moot.

I remember game called "Johny Reb II" which I long time ago played on my C64. Two units which were engaged in combat for longer time were "in melee" status, and you was unable to move them untill battle was resolved, but you was able to move other units. There are also suggestions made by other players. Why not to try implementing some of them to see which one is best, and how will it work?

Emir

That's not a completely inapplicable idea. It can be hard to extract units from combat -- harder than in OPART. One reason real armies tend to hold units in reserve.

One could have a chance attacking units get engaged with their opponents. Then the only way to free them would be to 'rout' them -- with heavy losses to readiness. Something worth chewing over, anyway...

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 10/23/2005 9:56:16 PM >

(in reply to Emx77)

Post #: 73

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 9:59:45 PM

ColinWright

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

...Norm is the only one, IMO, worthy of making any changes consistent with his vision of his game. If Norm changed it, I would take notice. But he didn't, and he won't. Don't you think it's all there for a valid reason? )

And there we have it. All Norm's decisions were correct. All suggestions for 'improvements' are necessarily erroneous. It is heresy to think this way.

(in reply to Capitaine)

Post #: 74

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 10:31:12 PM

ralphtricky

Posts: 6685
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline

Has anyone considered the affects of introducing a 'delay x phase' command would be? It could probably be put on the attack planning dialog, and I think that it might resolve some of the issues mentioned here.

It would allow you to coordinate things like 'a probing attack with these units, followed by the main punch by these units.

Thoughts?

Ralph

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 75

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 10:37:38 PM

ColinWright

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

To be absolutely clear here, having made a lot of changes in TOAW myself, I have learned that their effect needs to be tested carefully. For example, trying to simulate the declining ability of fighters to exert air superiority at long range by creating both short- and long-ranged versions of the same fighter produced screwy results. Similarly, my tests with reducing proficiency for artillery and increasing its firepower to magnify the effect of it being out of supply suggested this wasn't a way to go.

However, this doesn't lead to a blanket conclusion that no changes should be made, ever. Ben's assigning recon values to German tanks has created generated some very realistic behavior from early war panzer units, and it turns out that giving artillery pieces an AT value works quite nicely. With thought, I imagine I could list about a dozen changes that have improved TOAW either in general or with reference to simulating particular campaigns.

Norm did not create the perfect product. TOAW was not something handed down from God that perfectly simulated all operational warfare, 1900-2005. It can be improved. The only real questions are which changes are actually improvements and which ones are practicable.

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 76

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 10:42:09 PM

ColinWright

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

Has anyone considered the affects of introducing a 'delay x phase' command would be? It could probably be put on the attack planning dialog, and I think that it might resolve some of the issues mentioned here.

It would allow you to coordinate things like 'a probing attack with these units, followed by the main punch by these units.

Thoughts?

Ralph

Functionally, how would this differ from simply not making the attack until a later round? If the attack is to be launched in the SAME round, then launching it later will simply increase the amount of time it takes for all attacks to be resolved in that round.

As I see, currently the problem is that everyone has to wait around until all attacks have been resolved. The problem is that if one attack turns out to eat up the whole turn, everyone's turn is over.

(in reply to ralphtricky)

Post #: 77

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 11:18:36 PM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

You TDG guys started out many years ago on a noble mission of producing high quality TOAW scenarios but, with some exceptions, quickly turned into "TOAW Whiners Club Supremo". You wanted TOAW to handle all sorts of funny and downright ridicolous ideas this game was never intended to work with.

(Looks at list of scenarios)... Poland 1939, Lodz 1914, Wintergewitter...

All well within the bounds of TOAW. Some wierd ideas in there- but they work pretty damned well. There are plenty of scenarios which try to do too much with TOAW- but none of them have been produced by TDG (if we exclude Richard Bradley from the discussion).

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 78

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 11:22:59 PM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

No it's sad to see you on the side of TDG whiners

Striking, really. I suppose you don't follow WHQ, so it's unfair of you to appreciate it, but the fact that Colin and Keke (and myself) are in agreement on the topic means that they must be right- since the two are usually quite happy to disagree over any issue under the sun.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 79

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 11:33:34 PM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Well there is some logic in that we who frequent this board loved and played TOAW for years so we obviously loved the game and how it works, warts and all if you wish. Those who may agree with you never played TOAW or left the game many years ago never to return, so you will not see their posts on this board at all.

Right. Which do we want;

a) The TOAW community to remain the size it is now
b) The TOAW community to regain all those players who disappeared years ago (the game was indeed several times more popular three or four years ago than it is today).

quote:

2. Posts from Norm outlined dev plans for TOAW pretty clearly. You will not see any substantial changes, and many day dreamers better stop day dreaming right now lest they be disappointed by what future brings. (That I'm afraid includes you Colin.)

I'll grant that it's unlikely that we'll see major changes in the near future if ever. However, if such changes are going to be made, isn't it a good idea to figure out what we want now?

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 80

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 11:33:45 PM

Jeremy Mac Donald

Posts: 765
Joined: 11/7/2000
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeremy Mac Donald
It may well be the case that Norm never intended the engine to handle much of what we would like it to handle.

Bingo!

O.

Yeah - but Norm never intended it to have a database or a better naval model either.

_____________________________

Necesse est multos timeat quem multi timent

"He whom many fear, fears many"

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 81

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 11:50:54 PM

ColinWright

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeremy Mac Donald

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeremy Mac Donald
It may well be the case that Norm never intended the engine to handle much of what we would like it to handle.

Bingo!

O.

Yeah - but Norm never intended it to have a database or a better naval model either.

It all bears a striking resemblance to the 'if God had meant man to fly...' argument. Strikingly, in this case 'God' studiously avoided implying his product was by any means perfect, gave his blessing to those seeking to further improve it, and begged off involving himself on the grounds of other commitments and an inability to recall himself what the hell he had done so long ago...

Rather than trying to see TOAW as divinely inspired and perfect as it stands, a more appropriate paradigm would be to regard it as a farm one has acquired. Sure, those weeds can be cleared and some decent pasture created over there. That gate really doesn't work, does it? It's nonsense to try to pretend that the product wouldn't benefit from changes. Now, maybe we really can't raise mangoes here either because as it happens the farm is in Vermont -- but that doesn't mean no changes at all should be implemented.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 10/23/2005 11:56:10 PM >

(in reply to Jeremy Mac Donald)

Post #: 82

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/23/2005 11:53:53 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Right. Which do we want;

"We" do not know what "we" want. In fact there is no "we". I know what I want though.

Not always perhaps, but sometimes I do.

quote:

a) The TOAW community to remain the size it is now
b) The TOAW community to regain all those players who disappeared years ago (the game was indeed several times more popular three or four years ago than it is today).

You will not see size of "TOAW community" expand a lot no matter what you do, unless you make in into brain dead 3D RTS. By introducing radical changes, though, you may alienate part of the existing community, thus reducing its overall size.

quote:

I'll grant that it's unlikely that we'll see major changes in the near future if ever. However, if such changes are going to be made, isn't it a good idea to figure out what we want now?

LOL. My kids can't "figure out what they want", and I find myself in disagreement with my own wife more often than not

If you have two wargamers - they will have three, if not eight diverging ideas as to how something should be done (as evidenced by this thread).

If I'd have to pick single smartest sentence in this thread my vote would go to what Capitaine said:

"I have no interest in a democratically designed wargame anyway. Norm is the only one, IMO, worthy of making any changes consistent with his vision of his game"

Besides, I've been part of several beta teams in my life. I can safely say this: once you introduce too much democracy in development process, the downfall begins... You can't make everyone happy.

O.

_____________________________

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 83

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/24/2005 12:14:05 AM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
It all bears a striking resemblance to the 'if God had meant man to fly...' argument. Strikingly, in this case 'God' studiously avoided implying his product was by any means perfect, gave his blessing to those seeking to further improve it, and begged off involving himself on the grounds of other commitments and an inability to recall himself what the hell he had done so long ago...

Rather than trying to see TOAW as divinely inspired and perfect as it stands, a more appropriate paradigm would be to regard it as a farm one has acquired. Sure, those weeds can be cleared and some decent pasture created over there. That gate really doesn't work, does it? It's nonsense to try to pretend that the product wouldn't benefit from changes. Now, maybe we really can't raise mangoes here either because as it happens the farm is in Vermont -- but that doesn't mean no changes at all should be implemented.

LOL I find your posts truely amusing. You take youself, and all this, too seriously. Besides, what's this thing with god and religious references in most of your posts?

Farm, god, TOAW, Norm, preposterous posts...

Yes Norm gave his blessing to MG to continue work on TOAW. But he also said that the code is so complicated, he himself forgot what does what, and what changes he did in his latest patch (he lost the notes and without them he can't remember).

Now - all arguments about "early turn ending" and our differences aside - do you REALLY THINK someone can take over the code from Norm, and not make this game into bloody shambles?

I will say this, and mark my words. Unless there is some central authority (as in, one man) to regulate the development process, we will see only endless arguments among "community members", which will make this thread ultra-civil in comparison.

Game designer (in this case Norm) is not just a programmer and designer, he has the role of this "central authority" and makes game, basically, to his own liking. Since he seems not to be interested in further development of TOAW, worst case scenario I can imagine is "democratizing the game" to the point where everyone gets his way (be it me or you or us both or whoever).

Hopefully, this will not happen, if for no other reason than because the code can be understood and changed by only one man...

We will see a patch or two, bringing relatively modest improvements, some new scenarios, perhaps new graphics here and there, and that will be that. Which is perfectly fine by me BTW.

O.

_____________________________

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 84

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/24/2005 12:16:17 AM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

"We" do not know what "we" want. In fact there is no "we".

You must submit to the will of the majority! Are you a counterrevolutionary?

quote:

You will not see size of "TOAW community" expand a lot no matter what you do,

I disagree. Several people have come out of the woodwork since Matrix's purchase saying that they used to play TOAW but became disenchanted with it because of precisely the flaws we've discussed. These people are just the tip of the iceberg. Most such people don't post on message boards- but do follow events. Then there's new players.

quote:

LOL. My kids can't "figure out what they want", and I find myself in disagreement with my own wife more often than not

That's neat. What's your point?

quote:

If you have two wargamers - they will have three, if not eight diverging ideas as to how something should be done (as evidenced by this thread).

Actually, we have two ideas a) everythings fine the way it is and b) early turn ending should be on a formation-by-formation basis.

Actually, what I'd do if I was in charge would be to keep the existing system and then add (b) above as an option. Then you can have your TOAW and the rest of us can have ours.

quote:

"I have no interest in a democratically designed wargame anyway. Norm is the only one, IMO, worthy of making any changes consistent with his vision of his game"

A democratically designed wargame would be a bad idea, that's clear. But the second half of the quote- the part which matters- is not the 'single smartest sentence in this thread'. It's the declaration of Norm to be divine- in contrast to what Norm himself has said. He posted, in a paragraph you yourself have quoted on this thread, that he would be more than happy for the TOAW community to put forward suggested changes and fixes for Matrix to implement.

quote:

Besides, I've been part of several beta teams in my life. I can safely say this: once you introduce too much democracy in development process, the downfall begins... You can't make everyone happy.

See my suggestion above. There's no reason at all why a future TOAW couldn't satisfy both of us. The code for the current system is already there, one would just need to add the code for formation-by-formation early turn ending, put it in the options menu, and we can all have things our way.

If you want to insist that everyone should play the game your way, that's another matter.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 85

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/24/2005 12:24:54 AM

ColinWright

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
It all bears a striking resemblance to the 'if God had meant man to fly...' argument. Strikingly, in this case 'God' studiously avoided implying his product was by any means perfect, gave his blessing to those seeking to further improve it, and begged off involving himself on the grounds of other commitments and an inability to recall himself what the hell he had done so long ago...

Rather than trying to see TOAW as divinely inspired and perfect as it stands, a more appropriate paradigm would be to regard it as a farm one has acquired. Sure, those weeds can be cleared and some decent pasture created over there. That gate really doesn't work, does it? It's nonsense to try to pretend that the product wouldn't benefit from changes. Now, maybe we really can't raise mangoes here either because as it happens the farm is in Vermont -- but that doesn't mean no changes at all should be implemented.

LOL I find your posts truely amusing. You take youself, and all this, too seriously. Besides, what's this thing with god and religious references in most of your posts?

Farm, god, TOAW, Norm, preposterous posts...

I take it all this is another way of saying I went over your head.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 86

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/24/2005 12:30:25 AM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
See my suggestion above. There's no reason at all why a future TOAW couldn't satisfy both of us. The code for the current system is already there, one would just need to add the code for formation-by-formation early turn ending, put it in the options menu, and we can all have things our way.

LOL what naivete.... I would agree with you - hell why not... why not have both options? Lets have both options, sing Kumbaya and throw rose petals in the air...

But unfortunatelly there is a fine line between rhetoric on the board and actual game development. Thus, to have it your way, or both ways, you first have to find an individual capable of understanding and improving TOAW code.

Then you need to spend many many months to actually introduce "formation by formation" turn ending (I still can't imagine how would this work in actual game... you'd get message "Turn ended for SS LAH"? while other formations will still have their phases?). If you can do that in consistent way more power to you.

I see zero guys capable of that, and several hundered guys who know "best" what needs to be done (but not really how to do it) and post about it here.

Nothing really bad about it, though. What I am trying to say (somewhat sarcastically) is that you guys better accept the reality, become Borg, and forget about your "early turn ending" pseudo-issue

BTW Norm is not "god", he is simply the designer of this game. This game is product of his method of thinking, brilliance, genius, and faults, misconceptions, warts and all. That's all there is to it. With him at drivers seat, you may have somewhat imperfect, but consistent product.

With "wargaming democracy" in drivers seat you will have simply - nothing. Nothing but endless flame wars. That was my point.

O.

_____________________________

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 87

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/24/2005 12:38:22 AM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I take it all this is another way of saying I went over your head.

The Farm analogy was sheer genius dude.

You missed the opportunity to take it just one step further.

This TOAW farm from your post, that we all "inherited", could very soon become Animal Farm falling into chaos and disarray if we let bunch of pigs rule the show

*

* - my apologies to those who do not understand the joke, they need to read more books

Oleg

_____________________________

(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 88

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/24/2005 1:03:35 AM

ColinWright

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I take it all this is another way of saying I went over your head.

The Farm analogy was sheer genius dude. You missed the opportunity to take it just one step further.

This TOAW farm from your post, that we all "inherited", could very soon become Animal Farm falling into chaos and disarray if we let bunch of pigs rule the show *

* - my apologies to those who do not understand the joke, they need to read more books

Oleg

So to return to what your point seems to be, everything is perfect as it is. Early turn ending cannot be modified because Norm made it as it is, and so any changes would necesarily make things worse. Have I got it now?

If that's NOT your point, then why the violent, abusive reaction to discussing alternatives to early turn ending?

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 89

RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine - 10/24/2005 1:06:06 AM

Jeremy Mac Donald

Posts: 765
Joined: 11/7/2000
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

1. I didn't see any feasible, reasonable suggestion as to how to "correct" the "early turn end" pseudo-problem from you guys. Perhaps there was some such suggestion but I may have missed it? If there is no practical feasible solution, that does not require re-write of 60% of the game code, this whole discussion is moot.

You didn't? So turn ending on formation-by-formation basis is not a reasonable suggestion?

Sounds reasonable, but how would it look in the game itself, and how much will it change the overall balance? (again, in favor of the attacker?). Would it be practical to implement?

It would require rewriting lots of code, and would change the game too much. I guess. I don't consider myself "know it all" kind of guy but I highly suspect it is too much work for what is planned for TOAW in near future.

Let me quote what Norm said about much-wished, and far less controversial hex-side river issue:

">Hexside rivers en route?

Not from me- too much work. But feel free to lobby Matrix with
your favorite wish lists. I think they'd be pleased if you guys
respond with a list of wonderful changes to implement."

End quote.

O.

Hmm - so Norm seems to be positivly encouraging us to lobby Matrix for changes we would like in his post. If we think hex side rivers are better then we ought to lobby Matrix for such changes.

_____________________________

Necesse est multos timeat quem multi timent

"He whom many fear, fears many"

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 90

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> RE: The most frustrating feature of TOAW engine