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October Update - 10/3/2005 11:24:32 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Hey guys:

Sorry for the late update and frankly I'm sorry there has been little change in the project status since September. We still lack PBEM testing. Frankly, I could sit here a few more years while we all debate what should be in the game and out of the game. Many were upset at some of the EiH stuff we added and wanted it optional but I must tell you that this will take time to make these things optional (i.e. light fleets, etc.). This was never intended to be EiA but more EiA++. I myself will continue to fix the bugs and add what I can BUT I can tell you that this will probably be my last update until something measurable changes. I'm just not accurate enough to give you good estimates therefore, I will not give them anymore! I'll keep working and when the testers can agree that we're ready then we're ready! Don't worry, I'm not saying that I'm quitting but I am quitting giving you guys bad info. I'll stay on touch on the forums!

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

Post #: 1

RE: October Update - 10/4/2005 12:42:19 AM

JavaJoe

Posts: 546
Joined: 9/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Hey guys:

Sorry for the late update and frankly I'm sorry there has been little change in the project status since September. We still lack PBEM testing. Frankly, I could sit here a few more years while we all debate what should be in the game and out of the game. Many were upset at some of the EiH stuff we added and wanted it optional but I must tell you that this will take time to make these things optional (i.e. light fleets, etc.). This was never intended to be EiA but more EiA++. I myself will continue to fix the bugs and add what I can BUT I can tell you that this will probably be my last update until something measurable changes. I'm just not accurate enough to give you good estimates therefore, I will not give them anymore! I'll keep working and when the testers can agree that we're ready then we're ready! Don't worry, I'm not saying that I'm quitting but I am quitting giving you guys bad info. I'll stay on touch on the forums!

Thank you

Lack PBEM testing? Do you need volunteers? Or are the volunteers not testing?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 2

RE: October Update - 10/4/2005 1:14:29 AM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
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JavaJoe:

Not sure if we need more or not, yet. We will keep you in mind if you want?

Thank you

Marshall

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to JavaJoe)

Post #: 3

RE: October Update - 10/4/2005 2:08:01 AM

NeverMan

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
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Marshall, this eerily sounds like a death letter or a "the natives are closing in and we must run and hide for a season, if you don't hear from me in awhile, keep the faith".

All in all, it is what it is, some will probably like it, others (probably myself included) will not. That's life. It would be nice if you (Matrix) could make some money off of this or at least break even.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 4

RE: October Update - 10/4/2005 4:53:23 AM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Neverman:

Not at all a death letter. I just don't like setting false expectations. When there is something valuable to report, I'll get it to you guys! I'll continue to code until the testers think we're ready. I don't have a clue when this will be. Ralegh has done a great job in soliciting opinions on options and features but there is no consensus or majority screaming for any one feature. There are many people that don't like the EiH additions but there are many that do as well! I'll let the testers/community be the end judge for these things.

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 5

RE: October Update - 10/5/2005 12:51:04 AM

JavaJoe

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Joined: 9/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

JavaJoe:

Not sure if we need more or not, yet. We will keep you in mind if you want?

Thank you

Marshall

I playtest boardgames, recently, Wellington GMT, (Kutusov to follow) am also the VP of Jersey association of gamers. If you need help for this or in the future send me an email Sillvesttree at Yahoo dot com. I think Matrix sent a copy of Lock and load to our club that we raffled off to a member who is doing a write up as we speak!

I'm counting the minutes for EiA!

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 6

RE: October Update - 10/5/2005 4:14:34 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

FWIW, I'm more interested in solo play while I learn this game. I used to play AH War & Peace many moons ago but never got into EIA. What's important now is having a decent turn-based grand strategy Napoleonic computer game.

If the game itself is up and running and the AI is decent, why not consider releasing it for solo and hotseat play? There may be other game issues to resolve anyway while you continue to work on PBEM capability, and all that can be issued as a patch after release. Either way, I'll continue to wait patiently for this one to get released.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 7

RE: October Update - 10/5/2005 7:20:38 PM

Hanal

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
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Just to echo what pzgndr said....I never played TT EiA so I have no preconceived notions or hang ups about what should or should not be in the game...I too am simply looking foward to another Napoleonic title for solo play to complement* CoG....

*or is it compliment. I always screw up the spelling on this one...

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 10/5/2005 7:21:12 PM >

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 8

RE: October Update - 10/6/2005 2:22:27 AM

JavaJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Just to echo what pzgndr said....I never played TT EiA so I have no preconceived notions or hang ups about what should or should not be in the game...I too am simply looking foward to another Napoleonic title for solo play to complement* CoG....

*or is it compliment. I always screw up the spelling on this one...

EiA is the big brother of War and Peace. Suffice it to say the additions some of the posters here seem so passionate about really do make the game great, and its worth seeing them in the computer game.

I appreciate that the people doing it can interact with the people who are starving for it.

(in reply to Hanal)

Post #: 9

RE: October Update - 10/6/2005 6:05:50 AM

NeverMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

If the game itself is up and running and the AI is decent, why not consider releasing it for solo and hotseat play?

Possibly due to the wierdness of charging 60+ dollars for a multiplayer game that wouldn't be multiplayer. I understand what you are saying though, that if you are willing to pay for it now then why not? Might have to do with production costs. Honestly I don't know, and I would love to hear Marshall's opinion.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 10

RE: October Update - 10/6/2005 7:44:19 AM

Camile Desmoulins

Posts: 115
Joined: 9/15/2003
From: Madrid, Spain
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Marshall:

I think that many prefer that the things continue like they are, with a monthly update (although it is only to say "we are alive") better than to abandon the reports. I already know that the impatient ones

(many were not at the beginning of the forum) tire and they sometimes irritate

in useless discussions, but those that we are not it will wait what is necessary to have a good game. The last news, on the other hand, with the posts of Ralegh, are very good (for me, of course)

.
Personally I don't care if the game has left to finish 1, 2 or 6 months, but rather will be interesting. And I think that the project is it, without a doubt.

Thanks

Camille

_____________________________

"Scis vincere, nescis uti victoria" (Maharbal)

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 11

RE: October Update - 10/6/2005 5:06:03 PM

StCyr

Posts: 148
Joined: 7/2/2003
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bad info

quote:

I'm not saying that I'm quitting but I am quitting giving you guys bad info

LOL !!!

yea, just as you we don�t want to know about reality, so please don�t bother us any longer with any facts. The only result would be that you might get some input about what is going wrong with your concept.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 12

RE: October Update - 10/7/2005 5:42:39 PM

siriain

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Joined: 5/12/2004
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I'm very willing to be a playtestewr if this gets the job done

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Post #: 13

RE: October Update - 10/16/2005 4:11:55 AM

Grand_Armee

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Why not sell us the game, and let all of us act as beta testers... It works for COG. EVen though I love COG, I'll gladly cough up the dough for EIA. A few hundred heads can find the glitches faster than 20 or so.

(in reply to siriain)

Post #: 14

RE: October Update - 10/16/2005 4:56:30 AM

JavaJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grand_Armee

Why not sell us the game, and let all of us act as beta testers... It works for COG. EVen though I love COG, I'll gladly cough up the dough for EIA. A few hundred heads can find the glitches faster than 20 or so.

I'm still waiting to play CoG. I can't get through 2 detailed battles in v 1.0 and can't even get 1.2.14 to load.

(in reply to Grand_Armee)

Post #: 15

RE: October Update - 10/16/2005 11:41:38 PM

RSP

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Joined: 10/7/2005
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Not so sure about being an unofficial beta tester for software I buy. I make my money out of making Microsoft stuff work, so I get enough of that during the day

One question that I would raise though is that if we are all waiting around for PBEM testing. Well I guess some of us who have been lurking here a fair while (since Matrix first announced they were kicking this project off in my case) may have no use for PBEM. I don't get that much free time, and it is frequently interrupted by work projects which leave me living in hotels, for me it is me vs the computer or watching tv or reading manuals.
So is the PBEM testing an integral part of the functionality testing or is it something that could be patched?

Please Matrix save me from more Microsoft technical manuals.

Please

Pretty Please

Oh go on Pleeease

(in reply to JavaJoe)

Post #: 16

RE: October Update - 10/17/2005 12:46:22 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RSP
Not so sure about being an unofficial beta tester for software I buy. I make my money out of making Microsoft stuff work, so I get enough of that during the day

Well, professional coder by day, beta-tester at night is something I'm familiar with and which I find to be very enjoyable. It's rewarding "work" as well as you see the game progressing and you've helped it steer in the right direction.

There's no glory in getting corporate software to run, but in a couple of decades you can point to a game and say "granddad helped to make that one" :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to RSP)

Post #: 17

RE: October Update - 10/21/2005 1:23:42 AM

marc420

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From: Terrapin Station
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Hmmm, where I work the product manager takes the tester's imput, then makes the decisions. Letting the testers make the decisions would seem a lot like the putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum. But maybe that's just the people who beg to test something that isn't a game.

I'm another one who plays almost only solo play, if that makes a difference. And there's this very old and strange idea that something like PBEM could be added in a patch that people don't have to pay for.

Although, if the price really is $60, I probably wouldn't buy it anyways. But who knows, I've got relatives who are crazy enough to pay that much for a gift.

_____________________________

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Post #: 18

RE: October Update - 10/21/2005 5:07:03 AM

NeverMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marc420

Hmmm, where I work the product manager takes the tester's imput, then makes the decisions. Letting the testers make the decisions would seem a lot like the putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum. But maybe that's just the people who beg to test something that isn't a game.

I'm another one who plays almost only solo play, if that makes a difference. And there's this very old and strange idea that something like PBEM could be added in a patch that people don't have to pay for.

Although, if the price really is $60, I probably wouldn't buy it anyways. But who knows, I've got relatives who are crazy enough to pay that much for a gift.

Ok, I am not saying you should buy this game, but think about all the things you spend $60 on and tell me a great game isn't worth it. A decent dinner with a nice drink for two easily goes over $60 bucks, and for what, entertainment for 1/2 hour?

As far as my entertainment budget goes, PC games are certainly high on the entertainment value per dollar!! That's a fact.

(in reply to marc420)

Post #: 19

RE: October Update - 10/21/2005 3:01:00 PM

Nordiska

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From: N. Carolina
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Funny that is how I also plan my purchases. I often find myself wondering should I buy this PC or boardgame? Oftening realizing that the cost of movie for 2 that last 2 hours? vs. number of hours of game play. If it seems like a good investment I purchase the game. Rationalization does wonders huh?

< Message edited by Nordiska -- 10/21/2005 7:31:18 PM >

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 20

RE: October Update - 10/21/2005 4:46:55 PM

Sonny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nordiska

Funny that is how I also plan my purchases. I often find myself wondering should I buy this PC or boardgame? Oftening realizing that the cost of movie for 2 that last 2 hours? vs. number of hours of game play. If it seems like a good investment I purchase game. Rationalization does wonders huh?

Except if that other one who wants to see the movie doesn't get her way...

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to Nordiska)

Post #: 21

RE: October Update - 10/26/2005 6:14:21 PM

ravinhood

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One comment I will make Marshall about "waiting on your testers to decide", this is a bad stance. You're the leader, you should make the decision, not your corporals or privates (you know which privates I mean) ;)

Many Beta testers (not all but many) will never be satisfied or even give an inkling they are satisfied because if/when they do it means then their free fun is over, this for many online mmorpgs. If I recall, SSI and probably Matrixgames gives a free copy of the game to all beta testers, (at least those that actually really participated in what the JOB entails). So, this may or may not be the case with your beta test team. But, again, I would not wait on approval of your entire beta test team. I certainly wouldn't.

Certainly by now you know there are going to be disgruntled purchasers or fence sitters no matter what you produce. Those that will nit pick it to death (like me sometimes) hehe. But, that should be no nevermind. If you've made a "challenging" game and the "ai is at least decent", and it's relatively bug free (we all know by now no game will ever be released again without bugs) it's ready. You can add tweaks and other things down the road, but, you shouldn't just wait on release because of beta testers comments only.

(in reply to Sonny)

Post #: 22

RE: October Update - 10/26/2005 6:53:11 PM

Ralegh

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Please don't worry. Marshall slaps me down frequently. He just means we have to get to a certain quality level, and the testers (in general) are a key indicator of that. We are making a few changes to try to get some momentum up... watch this space.

And Ravinhood, why shouldn't the privates make the decisions? My privates make most of mine.

_____________________________

HTH
Steve/Ralegh

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 23

RE: October Update - 10/26/2005 9:16:30 PM

sterckxe

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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
One comment I will make Marshall about "waiting on your testers to decide", this is a bad stance. You're the leader, you should make the decision, not your corporals or privates (you know which privates I mean) ;)

Agreed so far

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Many Beta testers (not all but many) will never be satisfied or even give an inkling they are satisfied because if/when they do it means then their free fun is over, this for many online mmorpgs. If I recall, SSI and probably Matrixgames gives a free copy of the game to all beta testers,

A few points here :

1) beta-testers get a free game - but the free run doesn't end when the game goes gold as they've also had access to the final gold candidate = the release version.

2) The "never be satisfied" part : beta-testers are for the most part a realistic bunch - you have to be, otherwise you won't last. Time & money are putting restraints on every software development - not only wargames, so even a great feature idea might not be implemented in the 1.0 version. If you can't live with that, don't beta-test. Then again, you need to keep a fresh look at the game, so at the same time you *do* have to question the current implementation of things because the developer is often too absorbed in the woods to see the trees so to speak.

3) Developers *really* need the moral support of their beta-testers as well because sometimes they lose track of what a great game they allready have because they're too focused on the things that don't work (yet)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
beta-tester of Conquest of the Aegean

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 24

RE: October Update - 10/27/2005 9:44:23 AM

Pippin

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quote:

One comment I will make Marshall about "waiting on your testers to decide", this is a bad stance.

I imagine that one may be debatable. Perhaps you are right that management SHOULD be the ones doing the final decision. However, when Hasbro followed that approach and didn't listen to the testers, look what happened. Axis & Allies, Iron Blitz, (*caugh.. *caugh..)

_____________________________

Nelson stood on deck and observed as the last of the Spanish fleets sank below the waves�

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 25

RE: October Update - 10/27/2005 1:56:49 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
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From: Dallas
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ravinhood:

I must reinforce Ralegh and Pippin's points. Matrix management makes the decision to release BUT the testers are key. If they try to make the product something that it is not (rarely happens) then I'll correct them. We've got a great core team right now and I hope these guys remain so.

Testers? What are they anyway? They are customers. They are a good sampling of how the general customer base will view your product and if that is a bad stance then I'm just plain bad :-)

I understand what your saying and please note that it is Matrix's decision but without the testers' support, they do it at great risk. You only get one chance at a first impression in this business!

Thank you

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to Pippin)

Post #: 26

RE: October Update - 10/27/2005 4:42:46 PM

Sonny

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quote:

You only get one chance at a first impression in this business!

And right now that impression is one of...well, you pick whatever word you think appropriate.

_____________________________

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Post #: 27

RE: October Update - 10/27/2005 5:58:37 PM

ravinhood

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Hrmmm ok let's see if I can put this in a different perspective then on releasing a game. Providing it has most of the qualities I mentioned, challenging, decent AI and relatively bug free.

When a game is announced a large enthusiasm level is reached by the buying public. I know, I fall into that feeling as well. But, if the game keeps getting delayed and delayed and delayed what begins to happen and does happen is a loss of enthusiasm and even becoming totally indifferent to the game itself. Something else may preceed it and thus make it even less valueable as a purchase. I'm very prone not to buy something I already own several copies of something simular from other games until it reaches some bargain bin pricing level.

These are the sort of feelings that have hit home with EIA and CL, both games have been announced for like forever now and no release date in sight, and the enthusiasm level of wanting the games just falls lower and lower and lower (for me anyways, maybe I am the only one that feels this way I dunno).

Maybe game publishers shouldn't even announce a game until they are very sure it's going to hit the market within a very short time like six months. It's very disappointing to wait a year or more after an announcement for a game to be released. RTW did that to us, told us Dec of 2003 and then all of a sudden was moved to Sept of 2004, just totally lost a lot of enthusiasm for the game and probably why I am more disgruntled about the gameplay cause they did have all that extra time to make it better and it was crap out of the box.

Of course these are just my own customer insights, I might be totally alone, but, I've always felt if I think this way, there's got to be others as well.

(in reply to Sonny)

Post #: 28

RE: October Update - 10/27/2005 7:02:14 PM

pzgndr

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From: Maryland
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quote:

Many Beta testers (not all but many) will never be satisfied or even give an inkling they are satisfied because if/when they do it means then their free fun is over

This is totally unfair to beta testers unless you can cite specific abuses. Do not even start a blame game with the testers, or with the developers or publishers without knowing and understanding what the issues are. And guess what? Real life also interferes with the best laid plans.

quote:

It's very disappointing to wait

Oh please. Maybe you should try being a beta tester and see for yourself some of the disappointments and frustrations while being involved with a project for a couple of years. I've been a tester for Schwerpunkt's Anglo-German War for like three years and it just got released. And I've been a tester for Fury's Strategic Command 2 for a couple of years and working hard to help get it released soon. It may all be "free" to a point, but there's a lot of work involved. And believe me, we do want to get the product of our efforts out on the street so others can enjoy the game also. So just be patient and wait for a quality product.

I too am waiting for EIA, and WiF, and some other games that just seem to take forever. But having worked inside the glass palace, I'm not going to throw any stones at someone else. I'll continue to wait for EiA until it's done.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 29

RE: October Update - 10/28/2005 4:39:14 AM

ravinhood

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pzgndr I was a beta tester for SSI for many years. Don't try to give me any elitist remarks about what it takes to be a beta tester. I was one of their very best. I brought up these same comments 20 years ago. You can't wait on every beta testers approval to release a game, just too many different types of ideas in each of their minds.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 10/28/2005 5:00:22 AM >

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 30