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Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/28/2005 5:59:30 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

The link to these questions was cross posted on Consimworld from Boardgame Geek. This was the easiest place for me to post such lengthy answers! Guys and gals feel free to double check me:

(1) Overrun
(1.a) Can units that use Assault Move to disembark subsequently Fire or Opportunity Fire?

In an overrun? You can't fire into the same hex as your units.

(1.b) Can a vehicle Assault Move into Overrun?

It costs the vehicle 4MP+terrain to enter the overrun hex and again they can't fire inside it. Assault movement therefore wouldn't apply.

(1.c) Can Melee hexes be Overrun? If so, how does this work; are the friendly units ignored?

Rules don't mention this but I'd say no. If the rules are silent I don't read anything else into them.

(1.d) When GO units that survive an Overrun Close Assault, how are they marked? Ops Complete? How are those that are forced to retreat marked?

They would be marked MOVED. They must either follow the Infantry Close Assault procedures or retreat.

(1.e) Are there really no modifications (not even terrain) to the defender's 1D6 in Overrun?

That's what the rules say.

(1.f) Does the Hero creation process happen in Overrun also?

A damage check of 1 causes a hero and an Overrun attack requires a damage check.

(1.g) Can overrunning vehicles have outside passengers?

No as good order surviving enemy may Close Assault the AFV and no enemy infantry may exist in a Cose Assault hex.

(2) Melee
(2.a) How does Melee activation work? Does activation of the hex by one side consume all activations for the entire hex, or does the other side still have an activation for its units in the hex?

Unsure what you mean? The attacker activates a hex to enter or continue with an existing melee. The hex is then marked as Melee.

(2.b) Can you activate just some of your units in a hex for Melee?

All attackers attack. It wouldn't make sense not to do so as you can only withdraw pre-melee.

(2.c) Is attempted withdrawal linked to Melee -- i.e. does it only happen as part of the melee activation of the hex so that after withdrawals are complete, Melee happens.

Withdrawal occurs pre melee.

(2.d) Are Melee hexes spotted automatically?

Yes as units are truly adjacent! But N/A as you can't fire into one except as part of an FFE in which case the placement hex doesn't need to be spotted.

(2.e) Does reinforcement of a hex (that has not already activated for Melee in the turn) trigger Melee there?

Only if Melee is yet to occur. A Melee-marked hex must Melee at some point in the current turn.

(3) Rally
(3.a) In what order are the various steps in Rally Phase taken (e.g., pick up or exchange SW, Medics heal, flip tripod counters, rally units, etc.)?

Up to you. You'd want your leaders effective first to rally others and units in good order if you want to swap weapons amongst them.

Can medics heal another unit in the same turn they rally from Shaken.

Yes - just like a leader who rally's himself.

Does leadership affect a medic's attempts.

The rules suggest so as leadership even influences self rally.

(3.b) Can medics attempt to rally a unit that failed to rally for a leader in the same turn?

Only an SS unit may attempt 2 rally's and then only 1 such unit per turn.

(4) Miscellaneous
(4.a) Is the leadership rating for wounded 0 leaders -1?

No the rules don't say this. There are no poor leaders as in ASL!

(4.b) When would a turreted vehicle pivot on its chassis in a way that effects OFT results?

If it wants to avoid exposing poor armor.

(4.c) Are Morale Checks for units bailing out of vehicles affected by the TM for the wreck or abandoned vehicle? (What about for units that survive overrun MCing prior to Close Assault?)

Morale checks aren't affected by terrain. Rally checks are.

(4.d) Does the prohibition on SW use by outside passengers extend to satchel charges?

Outside passengers may only use LMG's. I'll need to double-check this.

(4.e) Can units that have moved spot or direct IDF?

No to spotting. The rules don't mention leaders moving and directing OBA, so yes to that. The target hex just needs to be in the leader's LOS they then become Ops Complete and may not move further.

(4.f) In what hex are hexside costs expended for OF purposes? It some cases it makes sense to pay them in the hex being left, e.g. if a unit starts in a clear hex and then exits through bocage.

In the hex they enter is the way I play.

(4.g) Can a Low Crawling unit enter an enemy hex? Can it Close Assault?

Why would it want to Low Crawl to do so? Remember it can't be fired on if the only hex it enters is enemy occupied.

(4.h) Can a vehicle button/unbutton just before firing, or only before movement (and does it have to actually expend MP or just use a Move action)?

This occurs at the start of the vehicle's impulse.

(4.i) What does the remark about "simultaneous fire" mean in 18.3

I don't have the rules in front of me would you believe - just my summary charts!!

Hope that helps and apologies for anything misleading.

Adam.

Post #: 1

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/28/2005 10:52:26 AM

stanguay

Posts: 41
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

Ok, here's my own answers to those questions Adam

1.a Yes. Assault Move capable units may use Assault movemetn to unload and subsequently fire, but if they do so may not leave the hex in which they disembarked until the following turn (fifth paragraph under 16.4). But what the relationship with Overrun ?

1.b No, Vehicles may not use Assault movement ot conduct an overrun (see 15.2)

1.c. No, you can't attack an hex with your own troops in it and you can't fire in a hex marked with a melee marker (see 1st paragraph, under 5.0)

1.d If successfull, GO units Close Assaulting are marked with a Melee Marker (previous answer from designer). If not, they are marked with a Move marker (see last paragraph, under 17.1) and either left in the hex if the overrunning vehicle continue it's movement or moved to an adjacent hex if the vehicle stop movement in the overunned hex (last paragraph under 15.3)

1.e Regular modifiers apply for the defender, since you have to compare the modified attacker die roll to the modified defender die roll (see third paragraph under 15.3).

1.f Yes. There is a chance that a Hero is created whenever a one is rolled on a Squad or Half-Squad's Damage Check (1st paragraph, under 11.2)

1.g Don't know the answer for sure but would adjucate it this way. First, enemy tank conduct overun, then disembark passengers as per 1st paragraph under 16.2 (a tank does fire ordnance when conducting an overun) then resolve the ensuing melee then conduct close assault if some GO units survived in the hex with no enemy infantry (only the tank)

2.a Yes. There can only one Melee round/turn/hex. All units that participate in a Melee round are considered activated at the same time. (previous answer from the designer and inferred from 8.15)

2.b No, the inherent Firepower of all the attacking units is compared to the firepower of any defending units (see 2nd paragraph under 8.0). Beside, what would be the point ?

2.c. Yes, units that wish to withdraw from but fail their Morale Check must immediately fight a Melee round (previous answer from designer)

2.d Yes, a hex is spotted if a unit in the hex is marked with a Move/Assault Move/Fire/Melle marker...(see 5th paragraph under 10.1)

2.e Yes, when you move into a hex with enemy unis, you must Melee (1st sentence under 8.0)

3.a You may choose the order in which to rally but Rallying Leaders first make the most sense, then rallying shaken medic then rallying other troops, then healing troops then flipping tripod then exchanging/picking up weapons then combine them. Leader's Leadership modifier does not affect medic attempt (see last paragraph under 11.1 and 2nd paragraph under 11.3)

3.b. Yes. Each unit can only attempt to rally once per rally phase but a medic trying to flip a shaken squad to it’s GO side does not constitute a rally attempt (previous answer from the designer).

4.a. No. Leadership rating cannot go under 0.

4.b. To rotate your vehicle into a better facing toward an impeding threat.

4.c. No. Bailout check (see 16.1.1) are not the same as morale check and are thus not affected by the TM. Pre-assault morale check are only affected when a unit entered the vehicle hex from a adjacent hex with a positive TM (see 2nd paragraph under 17.1), which is not the case for a GO unit close assaulting after being overunned.

4.d.Yes. Passengers riding on top of a vehicle may attack eligible targets with their inherent Firepower (no Support Weapons) (3rd paragraph under 16.2). Since 1st paragraph under 1.6 clearly label satchel charges as Support Weapon, the prohibition does apply.

4.e No to both. You have to mark units that move with a Move, Low Crawl, Assault Move or Stealth mareker, and those that fire with a Fired marker. Those units may not be used again this turn, except to defend in Melee (see last paragraph under 4.0) Also, units marked with Fire, Move, Low, Crawl, Ops Complete, Stalth or ssault Move markers may not spot (second to last paragraph under 10.1).

4.f. In the entered hex. Units move from hexe to hexe, paying the movement point cost of each hex as it is entered (1st sentence under 6.0). You pay cost to move to a new hexe, not to move from.

4.g Units may not use Assault movement to enter Melee (3rd sentence under 8.0). No prohibition (or advantage) to Low crawl into Melee.

4.h. Vehicles may switch from Open to Buttoned or vice versa at the beggining of their impulse (3rd paragraph under 15.0). They don't have to do anything except to spend an impulse.

4.i. You can't call two fire missions on the same turn, even if the scenario allows two such missions. You have to wait for the first one to be resolved before initiating the second one. Exception would be if the two fire mission were allocated two different formations.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 2

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/28/2005 11:17:33 AM

stanguay

Posts: 41
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

And here some precisions on your answers...

quote:

(1) Overrun
(1.a) Can units that use Assault Move to disembark subsequently Fire or Opportunity Fire?
In an overrun? You can't fire into the same hex as your units.

Technically, Overrun and Melee are indeed firing into your own hex. But I agree that the question is not related to Overrun in any way.

quote:

(1.b) Can a vehicle Assault Move into Overrun?
It costs the vehicle 4MP+terrain to enter the overrun hex and again they can't fire inside it. Assault movement therefore wouldn't apply.

Don't even bother with the calculation; it is spelled out in the rules :-)

quote:

(1.c) Can Melee hexes be Overrun? If so, how does this work; are the friendly units ignored?
Rules don't mention this but I'd say no. If the rules are silent I don't read anything else into them.

See my answer to this one for a good explanation fo your correct answer

quote:

(1.d) When GO units that survive an Overrun Close Assault, how are they marked? Ops Complete? How are those that are forced to retreat marked?
They would be marked MOVED. They must either follow the Infantry Close Assault procedures or retreat.

It all depend on if they were successfull on their pre-assault Morale Check. Those who failed will be marked OPS Complete instead of Move.

quote:

(1.e) Are there really no modifications (not even terrain) to the defender's 1D6 in Overrun?
That's what the rules say.

No, modifiers do apply. Overunned units are still not a good idea...

quote:

(1.g) Can overrunning vehicles have outside passengers?
No as good order surviving enemy may Close Assault the AFV and no enemy infantry may exist in a Cose Assault hex.

I disagree on this; see my proposal

quote:

(2.c) Is attempted withdrawal linked to Melee -- i.e. does it only happen as part of the melee activation of the hex so that after withdrawals are complete, Melee happens.
Withdrawal occurs pre melee.

Well, kind of. But if any unit from both camps are left in the contested hex, a Melee is immediatly fought after the withdrawals.

quote:

Does leadership affect a medic's attempts.
The rules suggest so as leadership even influences self rally.

And yet the rules don't say so :-)

quote:

(3.b) Can medics attempt to rally a unit that failed to rally for a leader in the same turn?
Only an SS unit may attempt 2 rally's and then only 1 such unit per turn.

Medic are an exception; see my answer

quote:

(4.c) Are Morale Checks for units bailing out of vehicles affected by the TM for the wreck or abandoned vehicle? (What about for units that survive overrun MCing prior to Close Assault?)
Morale checks aren't affected by terrain. Rally checks are.

Modifires can be applied to Morale Check but Bailout check are different

quote:

(4.d) Does the prohibition on SW use by outside passengers extend to satchel charges?
Outside passengers may only use LMG's. I'll need to double-check this.

See my answer and save yourself some work :-)

quote:

(4.e) Can units that have moved spot or direct IDF?
No to spotting. The rules don't mention leaders moving and directing OBA, so yes to that. The target hex just needs to be in the leader's LOS they then become Ops Complete and may not move further.

Half-right. Once you moved, you can't don anything anymore until next turn, except to defend in Melee.

Regards

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 3

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/28/2005 12:57:32 PM

markhwalker

Posts: 951
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline

Adam, Stanguay... thanks.

I have a minor problem with that laundry list of questions. As everyone knows, I'm deeply involved in the community and have no problem with questions, but keep in mind that it takes research to give these answers. Yep, I pretty well know everything by heart, but pretty well doesn't cut the mustard when everything that you say will be considered "official."

That said, it bothers me when folks don't put an equal amount of time into 1)Reading the rules and 2) using common sense when asking questions. Most (if not all) of this list of questions is in the rules. The guy just didn't take the time to look it up.

"What if" type questions are another problem. I don't want to answer a question someone dreamed up in the shower or something that "occured" to them while scanning the rules. Give me the specific instance in which the question arose, and then I'll answer.

Go TECH!

Best,

Mark

(in reply to stanguay)

Post #: 4

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/28/2005 4:29:41 PM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

Cheers Mark - I actually liked the "intellectual conundrum" (ie: gave me something else to do at the office in a hell of a week).

A couple of corrections to my answers seeing the rulebook in front of me:

4d - Indeed passengers on top of a vehicle can't use any SW's as pointed out by Stephane (and clearly in the rules).

4e - Leaders indeed can not move and place an FFE (mortars require a spotting by the leader - moved units can't spot and OBA requires the use of an impulse to call a spotting round).

And very cool guys, on medics being able to "heal" after a failed rally attempt. That of course would nullify my read on leaders influencing medics. "Patch him up Doc, I order ya" type of thing

Never came across the situation though.

I still wouldn't allow outside riders into an overrun hex owing to the subsequent infantry close assault rules vs AFV's that apply to surviving overrun infantry.

This whole exercize does prove the one true advantage imo that board games have over PC's - flexibility.

To that end - Rick over at Boardgame Geek - very cool post and work you did yourself on this topic. Love it.

Cheers,
Adam.

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 10/28/2005 6:07:39 PM >

(in reply to markhwalker)

Post #: 5

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/28/2005 8:41:42 PM

rickbill

Posts: 16
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: Camarillo, CA
Status: offline

Thanks Adam and Stephane for your great answers, I learned a lot!

I look forward to the upcoming release of the LnL:BOH VASSAL module since it will expand my LnL playing circle and therefore widen my familiarization with the rules and system.

- R

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 6

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/29/2005 1:35:12 PM

markhwalker

Posts: 951
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

This whole exercize does prove the one true advantage imo that board games have over PC's - flexibility.

Adam,

You are EXACTLY right. That is perhaps the singular downfall of PC war games. When programmed, the designer/coder need to detrermine how the AI responds to game parameters. This range of responses is limited. For example, the AI can defend "objective hexes, attack enemies, etc." It's very hard --unless it's programmed into a specific scenario-- to reward, for example, entering a map, destroying a building, and then exiting a map.

Not so in board gaming, and doubly not so --due to the Event mechanism-- in LnL.

Best,

Mark

(in reply to rickbill)

Post #: 7

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/29/2005 9:36:16 PM

Magua

Posts: 112
Joined: 7/31/2005
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

Adam, Stanguay... thanks.

I have a minor problem with that laundry list of questions..., ...The guy just didn't take the time to look it up.

I was thinking about that. This is the first board wargame I've purchased and played in a number of years. Back in "the old days," we didn't have forums to air our questions. You and your buddies either figured it out, or you wrote to the publisher, and waited a month of Sundays for a response. So, we would just settle on what we thought was the most likely possibility, and guess what? The decision to do that never once resulted in a ruined game, or a broken friendship.

It's nice to be able to clear up a problem or two here in the forums, but if one comes up with a list as long as the one above, somethings not right. Maybe whatcha need is a pair of cheap sunglasses.

(in reply to markhwalker)

Post #: 8

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/30/2005 12:07:32 PM

markhwalker

Posts: 951
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

It's nice to be able to clear up a problem or two here in the forums, but if one comes up with a list as long as the one above, somethings not right.

I've noticed that A LOT in the four years since we released Lock 'n Load. It's hard to put your finger on. Some folks just want rules that are written in passive-voiced legalize and spend pages describing the simpliest meachanism. That's part of the problem. I alluded to the other part above. If you scan the rules, don't play the game, and then dream about it on the way to work or in the shower, you may have some questions. On the other hand, if you throw counters on the map and play, you'll find there's no worries.

Best,

Mark

(in reply to Magua)

Post #: 9

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 10/30/2005 4:37:11 PM

stanguay

Posts: 41
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

Ok, a correction to one of my above answers. The question was

quote:

quote:
(1.e) Are there really no modifications (not even terrain) to the defender's 1D6 in Overrun?
That's what the rules say.

to which I answered...

No, modifiers do apply.

...but I was wrong. I checked with Mark and, even though there is a mention of MODIFIED defender die roll in the fourth paragraph under 15.3, the prevailing text is in 3rd paragraph, where no such mention is made. Thus, no modifiers are applied to the defender die roll.

BTW, this is true in the case of a unit hit by ordnance. There is no TM modifiers applied to the defender die roll, despite a mention of MODIFIED defender die roll in the 7th paragraph under 14.0 This modifier was already taken into account in the 2d6 to-hit roll that preceeded.

(in reply to markhwalker)

Post #: 10

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 11/3/2005 12:47:52 PM

markhwalker

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Joined: 1/29/2005
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quote:

There is no TM modifiers applied to the defender die roll, despite a mention of MODIFIED defender die roll in the 7th paragraph under 14.0

Right, but the HE equivalent is modified if the infantry target is moving, and CATs do have a size modification.

(in reply to stanguay)

Post #: 11

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 11/4/2005 1:08:50 AM

stanguay

Posts: 41
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker
Right, but the HE equivalent is modified if the infantry target is moving, and CATs do have a size modification.

But isn't the HE modifier added to the attacker die roll, not the defender's ?

And what are CATs ?

(in reply to markhwalker)

Post #: 12

RE: Answers to rule questions from Boardgame Geek - 11/4/2005 1:17:09 PM

markhwalker

Posts: 951
Joined: 1/29/2005
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quote:

And what are CATs ?

Chassis, Assault, Terran... the equivalent of Battlemechs in the LnL Aftermath world.

(in reply to stanguay)

Post #: 13

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