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Help with Japanese fighters - 10/28/2005 11:06:25 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		I am trying to learn the performance hierarchy of Japanese fighters. I am currently going on assumptions, but I would assume that the following is a list of planes from worst to best

Claudes
Nates
Oscars
Zeros
Zekes
Franks
Tojos

Is this correct?




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RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/28/2005 11:14:30 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I'd say it's all a matter of opinion. One thing you have to keep in mind is Army vs. Navy fighters. You can't mix them in units (Navy fighters in Daitai or Army fighters in sentai). What you really need is two lists, one for Navy and one for Army.

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RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/29/2005 3:57:16 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I am trying to learn the performance hierarchy of Japanese fighters. I am currently going on assumptions, but I would assume that the following is a list of planes from worst to best

Claudes
Nates
Oscars
Zeros
Zekes
Franks
Tojos

Is this correct?





Frank is definetly better than Tojo!

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Post #: 3
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/29/2005 4:53:49 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Thanks. SO maybe the list would be something like.

IJA
Claude
Nate
Oscar
Zero
Zeke
Tojo
Frank
Tony

IJN
Zero
Zeke




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RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/29/2005 6:02:56 PM   
worr

 

Posts: 901
Joined: 2/7/2001
Status: offline 		I'd make another category of defensive vs offensive....the tony for example has limited range.

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Post #: 5
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/29/2005 7:28:24 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		Tony has a range of 6
Tojo has a range of 5

the Frank is the best IJAF fighter.

The ranking should be something like

Nate
Oscar
OscarII
Tojo
Tony
Frank

The Tony is slighly better than the Tojo. Its armament is defently superior and makes heavy differences expecially when intercepting heavy bombers formations.
The Tojo is a better A2A fighter probably, due to its superior speed, but i still prefer the Tony.



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RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/29/2005 7:56:42 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Tony/Tojo are very close. I personally prefer the Tojo. Frank is hands down the best on that list.

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Post #: 7
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/30/2005 12:19:43 AM   
alfrake

 

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quote:

The Tony is slighly better than the Tojo. Its armament is defently superior and makes heavy differences expecially when intercepting heavy bombers formations.


As the two are close in performance, is it a good idea to skip one model entirely?

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Post #: 8
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/30/2005 3:32:18 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


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From: italy
Status: offline 		Tojos and Tonies aren't so similar IMHO. I've checked the results i'm having in my pbem with MC. At the same exp level the Tonies do a defenetly better job against his heaviests, while the Tojos seem to have more chances of engage in A2A with enemy fighters.
Against the 4Es seems that what counts most is the armament, while against other fighters speed seems to be the key.

I like to have both of them. Consider that the Tojo has a GREAT climb rate and can get the 4Es even when they fly at 36k ft....
So i usually keep the Tonies between 16,000 and 7,000 and the Tojos above 16k


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RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/30/2005 5:23:29 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

quote:

The Tony is slighly better than the Tojo. Its armament is defently superior and makes heavy differences expecially when intercepting heavy bombers formations.


As the two are close in performance, is it a good idea to skip one model entirely?



No. You need to produce some to get the reinforcements of that type. I make around 50 Tonys and call it good. When a new group comes online I convert it right away freeing up them planes for the next one.

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Post #: 10
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/30/2005 4:25:55 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone for the comments and answers. Its good to know that the Japanese also have specialized fighters. What about the Zero and Zeke? I assume that they are not quite as good as the Tony or Tojo, as they are earlier versions.




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RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/30/2005 5:20:20 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Tony and Tojo are army planes. Zero and Zeke are navy. Army cant use navy and vice versa.

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Post #: 12
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/30/2005 10:06:56 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		True, however the Zekes are inferior both to Tony and to Tojos. Only the A6M5c is a great plane! It's 20 armament points are a fantastic 4Es killers!

My personal hit is the following, mixing up IJAF and IJN

Claude
Nate
Oscar
OscarII
DinahIII
A6M2
A6M3
A6M5
Tojo
Jack
Tony
A6M5c
Frank-a
George
Frank-c
Reppu
Shiden

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Post #: 13
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/30/2005 11:05:59 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Great. I think I have a much better handle on Japanese fighters. Thanks everyone for the help.




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Post #: 14
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/30/2005 11:38:24 PM   
Woos

 

Posts: 683
Joined: 6/5/2005
From: Germany
Status: offline 		This thread not only has a graphical representation of all the Japanese aircraft upgrade path but also spread sheets to calculate a rating for the aircraft based on weightings (between speed, gun, durability, armor, ...) you can modify. (*End of shameless self-promotion*)

Of course one would have to know the combat formulas to really know what rating is important for what type of mission.

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Post #: 15
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 10/31/2005 8:58:40 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Great link Woos ! .. thanks

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Post #: 16
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/4/2005 10:29:43 AM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		check climbing speed
Tojo as I remember is excellent interceptor

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Post #: 17
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/4/2005 3:34:36 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

check climbing speed
Tojo as I remember is excellent interceptor



It is. It has a great climb rate. However armament has a great weight in fighters vs bombers ratings, so the Tojo seems pretty useless against enemy 4E bombers.

Usually i keep Tojos mixed up with Tonies. In every base i want to defend i have something like 60/70% Tonies and 40/30% of Tojos for IJAF. Tonies stay 1/2000 fts above the altitude i presume the bombers will arrive, while Tojos stay some 5k ft above, to intercept the escort.

I haven't experienced the Jacks in a serious Pbem Yet, but looking at the numbers these beasts will be of great use for CAP duties.
16 points of armament makes it even better than a Tony and with a decent speed and a good climb rate it's probably a very good mix of the latters 2.


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Post #: 18
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/4/2005 3:54:05 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
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From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Tojos and Tonies aren't so similar IMHO. I've checked the results i'm having in my pbem with MC. At the same exp level the Tonies do a defenetly better job against his heaviests, while the Tojos seem to have more chances of engage in A2A with enemy fighters.
Against the 4Es seems that what counts most is the armament, while against other fighters speed seems to be the key.

I like to have both of them. Consider that the Tojo has a GREAT climb rate and can get the 4Es even when they fly at 36k ft....
So i usually keep the Tonies between 16,000 and 7,000 and the Tojos above 16k




Good to know

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Post #: 19
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/4/2005 5:09:42 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		The biggest advantages of the Tojo over the Tony is the fact that you dont have to convert those Kawasaki engines to Nakajimas later . Not to mention converting a bunch to Kawas beforehand. Also, when the Frank comes online, all your Tojos automatically convert to Franks. Saves a lot of down-time.

Yes, in a one on one comparison the Tony is marganilly better than the Tojo. But in the big picture, it isnt. Build a few Tonys, sure. But with PDU, your workhorse should be the Tojo.

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Post #: 20
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/4/2005 9:24:25 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Tojos and Tonies aren't so similar IMHO. I've checked the results i'm having in my pbem with MC. At the same exp level the Tonies do a defenetly better job against his heaviests, while the Tojos seem to have more chances of engage in A2A with enemy fighters.
Against the 4Es seems that what counts most is the armament, while against other fighters speed seems to be the key.

I like to have both of them. Consider that the Tojo has a GREAT climb rate and can get the 4Es even when they fly at 36k ft....
So i usually keep the Tonies between 16,000 and 7,000 and the Tojos above 16k




Good to know



Bugger. It's easy for you! With those 4E monsters you just keep 6k ft and go...
We Jap fanboys have to be much more carefull!!!!
Do not expect i'm going to be fixed with those numbers now that i know you know
And remember that the Tojos can go up to 36,600 fts

However It's not that pain for me to convert the Kawa engines. Later on i'll reconvert them to something else ( Mitsu and Naka ).
I've found quite a good balance in my games that allow me to produce more or less exactly what i need without going mad

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Post #: 21
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/4/2005 9:25:01 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		again I do not remember it exactly but tojo is few months earlier then tony and you need to upgrade oscar sentais fast

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Post #: 22
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/4/2005 10:22:27 PM   
ChezDaJez


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From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

again I do not remember it exactly but tojo is few months earlier then tony and you need to upgrade oscar sentais fast


Tonys and Tojos are both available in August 42, assuming you haven't accelerated research. The IJA does start the campaign game with one Tojo group in Indonesia. It was a test and evaluation unit IRL.

Chez

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Post #: 23
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/5/2005 12:07:15 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Bugger. It's easy for you! With those 4E monsters you just keep 6k ft and go...


I had that Tojo group that starts the game at Kendari set at 100' to chase PT boats. A few turns later I changed them from naval attack to LRCAP (but I had forgotten to change the altitude). I got hit by B-17Es at their maximum altitude (36,000+ ?). The Tojos intercepted. All 8 of them (I lost one to an op loss earlier).

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Post #: 24
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/5/2005 4:04:30 AM   
BLurking


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From: Frisco, TX
Status: offline 		If you convert one of the small engine factories early enough, you'll build up a nice pool of Kawas to nicely outfit many Tonies. I've got enough in '43 to last until the next upgrade. But then again, the Tony is the only plane I've got that can reliably bring down large numbers of 4Es when my opponent isn't careful - so I've expanded the factory since then...

Tojos will damage them, that's for sure, but the Tonys will bring them down.

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Post #: 25
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/5/2005 4:11:11 AM   
Tophat

 

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From: Cleveland,Ohio
Status: offline
Oscars will get your good pilots killed and burn production replacing losses. I deluded myself to mass attacks combined with Zero's might work,I was wrong. As soon as you can to get the IJA contributing to the airwar,other than runningup allied kill scores,convert to Tojo's and Tonys. I plan on trying a 66% Tojo/to 33% Tony split.

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Post #: 26
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/5/2005 11:24:54 AM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		mixing oscars with zeros really works just bring hundreds of them together
my PBEM enemy lost its AVG and hurricane force in india in 2 weeks - my losses were 1:3 -lower then victory margin but I have air superiority now

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Post #: 27
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/5/2005 12:33:38 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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From: italy
Status: offline 		The problem for the Japs isn't the AVG guys. the AVG has so few planes that in 1 week of fights it gets annihilated by a good concentration of Zeros. The real problem comes later....the problem is called Liberators and Fortress. And the Zeros are simply useless against them. Yes, they'll shot down some of them, for sure...but they get shot down too...and 200 liberators can kill more zeros than the whole AVG!



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Post #: 28
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/5/2005 1:15:40 PM   
Sneer


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Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		main task for land forces and navy is to prevent taking good base locations for 4e bombers
I never claimed fighters are good enough to keep sky cleared

BTW what is update patch for KI45 ?
it seems to be the only fighter capable to hurt heavy bombers on reasonable terms

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Post #: 29
RE: Help with Japanese fighters - 11/5/2005 1:21:24 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
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From: italy
Status: offline 		You get first the night version of Ki-45a i think...
I'm near to get it in my major pbem ( the one with MC), but we've already agreed on a house rule about night bombing....i do not think you can use it in daylight...am i right?

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