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RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan

 
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RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 6:50:47 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


Just ONE of the MANY reasons you don't want to loose a war...

B


Hi Big B, Only problem with that is that the same morally neutral, Machiavellian, logic can be applied to Hitler. Hitler should want to win a war so he can write the history books and his enemies can't. Certainly gives equal emphasis to those clearly in the wrong to fight to the bitter end just so they can write themselves into the history books as the "good guys". Where's the incentive to even consider peace? If you're strong and you know you can win, why not fight and then rewrite the history books? It seems to me that the duty of humanity is to establish objectivity in history, which occasionally means facing uncomfortable facts and doing something about them instead of trying to write apologetics for them. If there are no (revisionary) rewards for being the bad guy then perhaps there will be fewer bad guys.

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Post #: 61
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 6:54:12 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Oh yah, and as for saving Private Ryan,...entertaining certainly, realistic in some ways - absolutely stupid in others, but the wierd feeling I walked away with from that movie was that I had just seen a WWII propaganda movie whose over powering message was "Never Trust a German".
I mean, I thought that was what Spielberg was trying to say with the whole deal at the end of Upham 'coming to his senses' and wasting the former German prisoner he was instrumental in saving earlier in the film....I don't know - it just seemed out of time and place for a film today.



You put it better than I did Big B.

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Post #: 62
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 7:16:03 AM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


Just ONE of the MANY reasons you don't want to loose a war...

B


Hi Big B, Only problem with that is that the same morally neutral, Machiavellian, logic can be applied to Hitler. Hitler should want to win a war so he can write the history books and his enemies can't. Certainly gives equal emphasis to those clearly in the wrong to fight to the bitter end just so they can write themselves into the history books as the "good guys". Where's the incentive to even consider peace? If you're strong and you know you can win, why not fight and then rewrite the history books? It seems to me that the duty of humanity is to establish objectivity in history, which occasionally means facing uncomfortable facts and doing something about them instead of trying to write apologetics for them. If there are no (revisionary) rewards for being the bad guy then perhaps there will be fewer bad guys.


Hi Gary,

Yes it was totally Machiavellian - and was meant to be...as half a joke.
I have tried to make it my policy to never get political in any way on this forum - and I'm not going to stray too far from that...but -

Hmm, I just want to say that the longer one lives...the more one's perspective changes as things unfold before your eyes. Suffice to say I wish the world were different.

B

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Post #: 63
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 9:01:45 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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Status: offline 		Wob -

I also liked the Band of Brothers series but also found it biased/hollywoodish at times.

A well done series nonetheless and it was great to follow 1 bunch of guys through several hours.

Also, I think I heard somewhere that they are making a series on the Marines. Anyone else confirm or deny this?

Steven

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Post #: 64
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 12:22:49 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marky
they were only up against 2 tanks and maybe a platoon of infantry

IIRC the sniper character on lookout on the church tower reports 8 tanks and 100+ infantry. Anyway, the first 20 minutes are the best I've seen so far in a war movie, the rest of the film is the typical Hollywood stuff... Oh, and I HATED the 'Thin Red Line'.

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Post #: 65
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 1:47:26 PM   
steveh11Matrix


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Status: offline 		Erm, My top three are "The Longest Day", "A Bridge Too Far" and "Tora! Tora! Tora!". In all three cases I like the view from 'the other side of the hill'. "Battle of the River Plate", "Hunt the Bismark" and "The Cruel Sea" are right up there too. "Saving Private Ryan" is one of the better recent ones, but "We Were Soldiers" is better still. (Aside: It's also a better book, made wonderful reading in fact.)

I admit I'd really love to see a film biography of Norman Schwarzkopf. His biography (It Doesn't Take a Hero") is pretty darn good, as is Colin Powell's book.

I'd love to see a film version of "Hitler's War on Russia", Paul Carrell's historical work. Similar in it's all-ranks, both sides treatment to Ryan's books, but (obviously) a wider scale.

Steve.

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Post #: 66
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 2:16:53 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix
I'd love to see a film version of "Hitler's War on Russia", Paul Carrell's historical work. Similar in it's all-ranks, both sides treatment to Ryan's books, but (obviously) a wider scale.
Steve.


'Historical' work of Paul Carell alias Paul Karl Schmidt, the boss of the press office in Ribbentrop's Foreign Ministry and thus partly responsible for Nazi propaganda? Granted, he has a quite readable writing-style with his frequent use of the 'trooper' or grassroots perspective, but he tries to legitimate the necessity of the war against the USSR (the infamous 'preventive war' thesis) and to maintain the picture of the 'clean' Wehrmacht. This perception matched popular opinion in the 1960s, that's why his books became popular, but nowadays his works are considered controversial at best.

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Post #: 67
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 4:09:30 PM   
steveh11Matrix


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Status: offline 		All historians have their own version - witness Liddell Hart!

I'm not saying that Carell was right, I'm not convinced anyone would really contend that. I am saying that he wrote good, readable histories of broad scope and from many points of view, high and low and from both sides of the hill. Impartial? No. Could they be made into great films, or perhaps even better, miniseries? I think so. YMMV of course!

Steve.

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Post #: 68
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 4:49:24 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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Status: offline 		Yes, matter of opinion and I don't want to split too many hairs over this, I'm just wondering what kind of film would result if it was based on the non-impartial views of a Nazi apologist. Yes, the film might show "many points of view, high and low and from both sides of the hill", which is right and good in principle if properly used, but Carell used it rather selectively and a film based (only) on his work would most likely factor out the gory details (war of aggression, atrocities) Carell was trying to deny, too. If looking for a base for a film on the Eastern Front, there are certainly better books to draw inspiration from.

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Post #: 69
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 5:06:20 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Don't think any film based on Paul Carrell's work would be well received. He's very readable, but also VERY lopsided in his views.



< Message edited by Terminus -- 10/31/2005 5:07:21 PM >

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Post #: 70
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 5:22:16 PM   
LittleJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Wob -

I also liked the Band of Brothers series but also found it biased/hollywoodish at times.

A well done series nonetheless and it was great to follow 1 bunch of guys through several hours.

Also, I think I heard somewhere that they are making a series on the Marines. Anyone else confirm or deny this?

Steven


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374463/

"The Pacific War"

I think they said there filming it this year, for realease sometime in 2006, cant wait, Band of Brothers is the best Tv mini series, and war "Movie" ive ever seen.

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Post #: 71
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 5:23:02 PM   
ilovestrategy


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Status: offline 		I like Kelly's Heroes. That was so funny when Carrol O'conner didn't give a damn about what his weather man was trying to explain why he couldn't get a clear reception on the radio. I wish I could remember the exact words. I'm laughing now jsut thinking about that scene. And remember when they were at a stalemate with that German tank? "Let's make a deal. What kind of deal? A Deal, Deal!" LOL

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RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 5:37:01 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Post #: 73
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 5:58:59 PM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I like Kelly's Heroes. That was so funny when Carrol O'conner didn't give a damn about what his weather man was trying to explain why he couldn't get a clear reception on the radio. I wish I could remember the exact words. I'm laughing now jsut thinking about that scene.


"The ionosphere? Tell the ionosphere to get the hell off my frequency!"
(or something very close)

quote:

And remember when they were at a stalemate with that German tank? "Let's make a deal. What kind of deal? A Deal, Deal!"


" . . . maybe the guy's a Republican."

Woof, Woof -- that's my other dog impersonation.

My favorite Kellys Heroes quote (and former sig): "Negative waves Moriarity, always with the negative waves. Can't you for once have a positive and righteous thought."




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Post #: 74
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 6:21:43 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Status: offline 		No, I have to agree with your first statement 11acr. "I just ride 'em, I dont know what makes 'em work" has got to be the best line from that movie. But there are so many.

(BTW I was attached to the 11th ACR in Fulda in '77 for a few weeks)

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Post #: 75
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 10:52:07 PM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

All historians have their own version - witness Liddell Hart!

...


Ok, bring me up to speed - when did Liddell Hart become controversial?

B


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Post #: 76
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 11:43:03 PM   
ChezDaJez


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Status: offline 		My top 3 are "Twelve O'Clock High", "Tora Tora Tora", and "Gettysburg." "Blackhawk Down" was very good. "Sink the Bismarck" was also pretty good if somewhat inaccurate. I like war movies that focus on the human element, not just bombs and bullets.

"Twelve O'Clock High" was the best of the three. Watching Gregory Peck move from a hard-assed officer to one who begins to care too much for his men and finally has a nervous breakdown.

One of the best Cold War movies I ever saw was "The Bedford Incident" with Sidney Poitier, Richard Widmark, Wally Cox and James MacArthur. The last scene in the movie is supeerb. MacArthur is the overeager, inept junior Weapons Officer, Widmark as the skipper and Poitier as a news correspondent. They are on a US destroyer chasing a Soviet diesel submarine near Greenland and Widmark wants to force him to surface. Unfortunately they end up ramming it with a glancing blow and Poitier is in Widmark's face demanding to know what Widmark will do if the Soviet sub fires a torpedo because of the ramming. Widmark replies, "If he fires one. I'll fire one!" MacArthur yells, "Fire one!" and launches an ASROC. Pretty soon a loud explosion is heard from the sub and everyone on the bridge is taken aback. Its dead silence until Cox, the sonarman, reports high speed screws inbound. The movie ends with a mushroom cloud. A few factual errors but still a very tense, well written drama.

Chez

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Post #: 77
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 10/31/2005 11:45:56 PM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

Ok, bring me up to speed - when did Liddell Hart become controversial?


The only thing controversial about Hart was that the British didn't listen to him and the Germans did.

Chez

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Post #: 78
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 2:46:55 AM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Ok, bring me up to speed - when did Liddell Hart become controversial?


The only thing controversial about Hart was that the British didn't listen to him and the Germans did.

Chez


That's rather what I thought. I have his "History of of the Second World War" copyright 1970, first printing evidently - I didn't ever remember him being counted as a whacko (except before the war).

B

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RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 3:58:56 AM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		IMHO, Turner's movie "GETTYSBURG" rates as one of the best......

As for the guyss' in SPR "fighting the whole German army"...Well...They WERE RANGERS !!!

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RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 4:41:34 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

IMHO, Turner's movie "GETTYSBURG" rates as one of the best......

As for the guyss' in SPR "fighting the whole German army"...Well...They WERE RANGERS !!!


And Airborne

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RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 5:17:35 AM   
Drex

 

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Status: offline 		He also wrote Strategy, a good thesis on the indirect approach.

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RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 8:10:15 AM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

One of the best Cold War movies I ever saw was "The Bedford Incident" with Sidney Poitier, Richard Widmark, Wally Cox and James MacArthur. The last scene in the movie is supeerb. MacArthur is the overeager, inept junior Weapons Officer, Widmark as the skipper and Poitier as a news correspondent. They are on a US destroyer chasing a Soviet diesel submarine near Greenland and Widmark wants to force him to surface. Unfortunately they end up ramming it with a glancing blow and Poitier is in Widmark's face demanding to know what Widmark will do if the Soviet sub fires a torpedo because of the ramming. Widmark replies, "If he fires one. I'll fire one!" MacArthur yells, "Fire one!" and launches an ASROC. Pretty soon a loud explosion is heard from the sub and everyone on the bridge is taken aback. Its dead silence until Cox, the sonarman, reports high speed screws inbound. The movie ends with a mushroom cloud. A few factual errors but still a very tense, well written drama.

Chez


Oh yeah, that's an awsome film. I remember watching it on TV when I was about 8 years old. It scared the crap out of me.

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RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 9:10:18 AM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

Oh yeah, that's an awsome film. I remember watching it on TV when I was about 8 years old. It scared the crap out of me.


The incident depicted in the movie is one of the reasons why the US and Soviets signed the "Incident at Sea" agreement in the 70's to reduce the possibility of something like that happening. Of course, neither side paid too much attention to it and we still harassed each other.

Chez

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Post #: 84
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 9:15:41 AM   
Apollo11


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Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

IMHO, Turner's movie "GETTYSBURG" rates as one of the best......


Also let us not forget the prequel to that move (made 10 years after) "The Gods and Generals"!

I am now eagerly waiting for sequel (i.e. 3rd move in that series) that would deal with end of Civil War...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 85
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 9:18:57 AM   
Apollo11


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Status: offline 		Hi all,

Back to original post... IMHO "Saving Private Ryan" was OK war movie with outstanding intro scene (first 20 minutes).


My other favorites are:

"The Thin Red Line" (I know many of you guys don't like it but war scenes in it are superb - you must admit!)

"Aces High" (WWI war move about harsh reality of aerial combat in 1917)


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 86
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 9:24:52 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

IMHO, Turner's movie "GETTYSBURG" rates as one of the best......

As for the guyss' in SPR "fighting the whole German army"...Well...They WERE RANGERS !!!


And Airborne


Actually, no. Rangers in WWII werent airborne qualified.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 87
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 9:26:49 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
"Aces High" (WWI war move about harsh reality of aerial combat in 1917)


Blue Max was another great WW I aerial movie.

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Post #: 88
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 9:48:03 AM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

IMHO, Turner's movie "GETTYSBURG" rates as one of the best......

As for the guyss' in SPR "fighting the whole German army"...Well...They WERE RANGERS !!!


And Airborne


Actually, no. Rangers in WWII werent airborne qualified.


CORRECTAMUNDO YOU ARE SIR !!!!!!!!
The Rangers in that movie were with the 5th Rangers...(Legs)..

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Post #: 89
RE: OT: Saving Private Ryan - 11/1/2005 12:44:33 PM   
steveh11Matrix


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Status: offline 		Forgive my probably failing memory, but didn't Tom Hank's Rangers join up with Airborne elements in that town?

Steve.

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Post #: 90
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