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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/9/2005 11:59:35 PM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Let me start by saying I am an ardent opponent of the Zero Bonus...as it stands in the game.
I am convinced that the aircrafts stats, and much more importantly PILOT EXPERIENCE along with SUPERIOR NUMBERS already do what the Zero Bonus is supposed to represent in real life.

Ok, now having said that - if there is going to be Bonus Rule it may as well apply to the KI 43 Oscar as well.
The KI 43 can out turn, climb and roll a Zero - so what the heck - it beat's the Zero at it's own game.

The KI 43 does lack firepower and that's a fact of life - period.

However, before we start thinking that the A6M2 and KI43 can out maneuver allied fighters at will keep in mind the following figure's below: (From Hoof's)

Roll Rate: KI 43II
150mph: 6.1s
200mph: 5.7s
250mph: 6.5s
300mph: 8.1s
350mph: 17.5s

Roll Rate: A6M2
150mph: 4.9s
200mph: 5.9s
250mph: 6.9s
300mph: 14.8s
350mph: 21.6s

Roll Rate: P 40E
150mph: 6.1s
200mph: 4.6s
250mph: 3.6s
300mph: 3.1s
350mph: 2.7s
400mph: 4.8s

B

B,
Without intending to start a detail debate on the physics of Air combat vis a vis the Oscar and the P-40 let me just say that, while roll rate is important, the number of degrees to turn from level flight to the max angle of bank to perform said high performance turn is 90. Roll rate is not a characteristic that is regularly sustained in air combat it is more of an instantaneous application, but turn rate and radius are sustainable over time. So for each aircraft at its given corner airspeed who do you think has the better turn performance overall?

So while the P-40 would win a race from level flight to an Angle of Bank of 90 degrees every time vs the Oscar, its turn rate and more importantly turn radius I think would cancel the intial turn edge that the P-40 seems to have.

This all assumes that the P-40 pilot has decided to turn with an Oscar...

Well, if I were a P-40 pilot, I sure wouldn't try to turn with an Oscar by going 'low and slow'

Seriously though, I was just trying to point at that the advantage of greater maneuverability often switches between the same two aircraft depending on circumstance of encounter.

And far more importantly - this kind of one on one advantage in a tight turn contest is of minimal importance in military terms in a multiple aircraft engagement.
It's not that high maneuverability is a disadvantage in a big dogfight - it's just that the very ingrediants that make light aircraft so maneuverable to begin with (light construction, etc) are decided disadvantages in a melee since not only can such aircraft not withstand much if any punishment, but with multiple hostiles you will always be exposed to fire and your maneuverability (your armor) will be of no defence as it would have been in a one on one.

Looked upon another way - if small turn radius were king in combat...all the air forces of the world would still fly biplanes...that was exactly what the RA (Italian) thought mattered most right before WWII and as a result were left behind in modern combat aircraft for the first critical year or two of the war.

Secondly Japan herself built heavier faster aircraft (at the expense of maneuverability) as soon as she could manage...

So the Real World lesson is: Turn radius is good - but speed, durability and firepower are vastly more important in combat.

B

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Post #: 61

RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:00:08 AM

doktorblood

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Manuever ratings seem to be a collection of haphazard subjective judgements to me...as do some of the durability ratings. Unlike max speed ratings and armaments which appear to be based on some objective data.

Trying to formulate objective manuever ratings by making 1 on 1 comparisons ...plane A turns better than plane B at altitude X but plane B rolls better than plane A at altitude Y but Plane C out-climbs both at altitude Z and plane D has better accelaration than plane E... seems like it would drive most people insane.

To me it seems that the best way to come up with objective manuever ratings would be to base it on the most general of indicators of aero-manueverability ... wing loading(turning/stall) and power loading(accelration/climb) with perhaps a small influence for wing aspect ratio(roll).

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:02:20 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

I would agree that the time of the Oscar is certainly beginning to draw to an end, but Nik's sources seem to indicate that they were still formidable, or to be even more diplomatic...not the push over that they are in our beloved game.

The Oscars got slaughtered over New Guinea. The only plane the Oscar could routinely handle was the P-39.

For BigB:

I understand the Zero bonus as it is applied in the game and don't think it should be applied to the Oscar for the following reasons:

1. Outside the AVG, US forces had little interaction with the Oscar until late 42. Chennault tried to warn Washington of the Oscar's abilities but they weren't listening. It wasn't until the Oscar appeared over the jungles of New Guinea that US forces engaged them in a great numbers and by then the US had already learned how to deal with the A6M2s. Those lessons applied equally well to the Oscar.

2. The A6M2 was the primary opponent for US forces throughout 1942, especially early on. This was the plane that took everyone by surprise. By the time of Midway, however, it had lost much of its mystique and by fall 42, its failings were well known to US pilots.

3. The AVG wasn't disbanded until July 42 when it was converted to the USAAF however most AVG pilots elected to leave at that time. This was the only unit in which American pilots had extensive experience against the Oscar early in the war. And while they were amazed at its maneuverability, they were less than awestruck by it.

Sammy Pierce, an ace with the 49th FG in New Guinea said it best: "The Oscar was probably the slowest Japanese fighter in the theater and had very llight armament, but it was a performing fool. An experienced pilot in an Oscar was not that much of a threat to an experienced P-40 pilot, because of the Oscar's lack of guns and the P-40's ability to take it, but he could send you home talking to yourself!"

One other point when considering the Oscar's guns. It had the same basic armament as the Sopwith Camel from WWI.

Chez

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Post #: 63

RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:16:46 AM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

I would agree that the time of the Oscar is certainly beginning to draw to an end, but Nik's sources seem to indicate that they were still formidable, or to be even more diplomatic...not the push over that they are in our beloved game.

The Oscars got slaughtered over New Guinea. The only plane the Oscar could routinely handle was the P-39.

For BigB:

I understand the Zero bonus as it is applied in the game and don't think it should be applied to the Oscar for the following reasons:

1. Outside the AVG, US forces had little interaction with the Oscar until late 42. Chennault tried to warn Washington of the Oscar's abilities but they weren't listening. It wasn't until the Oscar appeared over the jungles of New Guinea that US forces engaged them in a great numbers and by then the US had already learned how to deal with the A6M2s. Those lessons applied equally well to the Oscar.

2. The A6M2 was the primary opponent for US forces throughout 1942, especially early on. This was the plane that took everyone by surprise. By the time of Midway, however, it had lost much of its mystique and by fall 42, its failings were well known to US pilots.

3. The AVG wasn't disbanded until July 42 when it was converted to the USAAF however most AVG pilots elected to leave at that time. This was the only unit in which American pilots had extensive experience against the Oscar early in the war. And while they were amazed at its maneuverability, they were less than awestruck by it.

Sammy Pierce, an ace with the 49th FG in New Guinea said it best: "The Oscar was probably the slowest Japanese fighter in the theater and had very llight armament, but it was a performing fool. An experienced pilot in an Oscar was not that much of a threat to an experienced P-40 pilot, because of the Oscar's lack of guns and the P-40's ability to take it, but he could send you home talking to yourself!"

One other point when considering the Oscar's guns. It had the same basic armament as the Sopwith Camel from WWI.

Chez

Hi Chez, I'm not advocating the 'Oscar Bonus' but it makes about as much sense to me...

My take on the 'Zero Bonus' is - I don't think it's a bad conept...it's just that in a game engine that is driven above all else by 'unit/pilot experience' the Japanese pilots are already way above their allied counterparts by 20 or 30 points - what more is needed? If their pilot ratings were about the same then I would fully understand the logic of the allied learning curve and have no problem with the bonus...but this is not the case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

Manuever ratings seem to be a collection of haphazard subjective judgements to me...as do some of the durability ratings. Unlike max speed ratings and armaments which appear to be based on some objective data.

Trying to formulate objective manuever ratings by making 1 on 1 comparisons ...plane A turns better than plane B at altitude X but plane B rolls better than plane A at altitude Y but Plane C out-climbs both at altitude Z and plane D has better accelaration than plane E... seems like it would drive most people insane.

Not insane... I have always had this twitch in my eye and nervous shaking hands! lol

B

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Post #: 64

RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:19:05 AM

TheElf

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From: Pax River, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

I would agree that the time of the Oscar is certainly beginning to draw to an end, but Nik's sources seem to indicate that they were still formidable, or to be even more diplomatic...not the push over that they are in our beloved game.

The Oscars got slaughtered over New Guinea. The only plane the Oscar could routinely handle was the P-39.

For BigB:

1. Outside the AVG, US forces had little interaction with the Oscar until late 42. Chennault tried to warn Washington of the Oscar's abilities but they weren't listening. It wasn't until the Oscar appeared over the jungles of New Guinea that US forces engaged them in a great numbers and by then the US had already learned how to deal with the A6M2s. Those lessons applied equally well to the Oscar.

Which is also well after the Zero bonus has expired.

But as we all know Oscars can very easily encounter USAAC units well before this time, which if what you are saying here is true and Washington still isn't listening, it would seem you are arguing for the zero bonus to be appiled to the Oscar

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Post #: 65

RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:32:11 AM

Nikademus

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Actually it was the A6M that Chenault was taking about after hearing about it in China. The Oscar 'did' take many an Allied pilot by suprise but was mis-identified as a Zero in almost every Allied action account. They never knew they were fighting Oscars. Even as late as Dec42 Oscar claims were still being labeled as "Zeros" As far as i can tell so far, no A6M ever flew in Burma.

I don't know about the Ki being quote unquote "slaughtered" in New Guniau but by mid 43 the plane's time had certainly passed though, like the Zero, it could still be dangerous. It may have only been armed with two .50cal's by this time but as the P40 driver indicated, this could actually be more dangerous than facing a Zero with wing cannons. Also have to wonder at the exp levels of the boys sent to NG. The JAAF 5th division was crack at war's start but alot of sources tend to speak none to well about JAAF training standards. Even in "Zero!" this was evident. How much was a holdover from the Army/Navy rivrary is debatable. Okumiya rips them a new one.

As for the China/Burma area......well its 2/43 and the Ki's are not being "slaughtered" by either Mohawks, Hurricane IIb's or c's or P-40's.

From what i've read of NG...by the time the JAAF entered the picture things were pretty grim and the JAAF was bewildered by what they found there. Wewak was largely demolished in before they even got started.

Like i said before, anyone who really wants to learn the whole picture with this plane should read bloody shambles series first before passing judgement.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:32:45 AM

TheElf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

I would agree that the time of the Oscar is certainly beginning to draw to an end, but Nik's sources seem to indicate that they were still formidable, or to be even more diplomatic...not the push over that they are in our beloved game.

2. The A6M2 was the primary opponent for US forces throughout 1942, especially early on. This was the plane that took everyone by surprise. By the time of Midway, however, it had lost much of its mystique and by fall 42, its failings were well known to US pilots.

Not in my PBEM it isn't. And that is the point. Why do we always have to argue against history when history never repeats itself in WitP? The Oscar DID take the allies by suprise, so much so that they thought that it was a Type 0 fighter until mid-42' after a focused intelligence and aircraft recognition campaign had been conducted.

Other than its gun package the Oscar performs as well if not better than the zero. So in essence a slighty(very slightly) lesser aircraft, the Zero, benefits from this early war bonus. Why is that? Just because IRL the Oscar didn't encounter USAAC units? That makes no sense.

If the concern is that the Oscar will become some kind of P-40 killer because it has the Zero bonus, go take a look at the AAR Nik is running right now with all these changes we are debating. Or look at how the ZERO performs in the game right now. They aren't invincible.

I think the gun package problem will take care of itself. Particularly with his across the board 50% durability increase.

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Post #: 67

RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:33:04 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

So the Real World lesson is: Turn radius is good - but speed, durability and firepower are vastly more important in combat.

Absolutely! Consider that American fighters developed during the mid-30s were designed to intercept bombers, not to dogfight. So speed, durability and firepower were key, maneuverability was seconded to the others.

European fighters of the same era were designed as short range, defensive aircraft based on the lessons learned during WWI where firepower and maneuverability were important. Top speed wasn't as important due to the shorter distances involved. Japanese army fighters were designed based on the lessons learned in China and Europe where maneuverability was very important. Japanese navy fighters required long range capaibilities for over ocean flight but maneuverability was still very important to them. American pilots had to learn the hard way that dogfighting was a no-no and so had to use the strengths of speed and diving. That's one of the salient points of American philosophy. If our weapon isn't good enough using the current rules, we don't design a new weapon, we rewrite the rules!

Side note RE: Oscar. The Oscar was the lightest weight, retractable gear, monoplane fighter used by any country in the war. Although it used the same engine as the Zero, it was nearly 30 mph slower due primarily to its lightweight construction. It could not dive at all. But it could do a double Immelmann without losing much speed, followed by a hammerhead stall, something no other fighter anywhere could do. Most allied fighters were hard pressed to complete a single Immelmann without substantial loss of speed.

Chez

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:41:30 AM

TheElf

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I just want to get this discussion back on track. No one is saying that the Oscar should be a killer airplane. I don't think it should dominate the air war in NG in late 42'. And if these changes are made I don't think it will. Check out Nik's and Speedy's AAR.

To quote Dyson "I just think things should work properly..."

I won't speak for Nik here, but I THINK he'll concur.

THE POINT of all this is that the Oscar is USELESS in this game. It WASN'T useless IRL especially in the early war, regardless of gun packages.

All we(the Royal "we") are trying to do is bring it up to snuff so I can see just one of my P-38s shot down by a numerically superior force of highly experienced Oscar pilots.

Is this so hard to accept?

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:44:26 AM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I just want to get this discussion back on track. No one is saying that the Oscar should be a killer airplane. I don't think it will dominate the air war in NG in late 42'. I won't speak for Nik here, but I THINK he'll concur.

THE POINT of all this is that the Oscar is USELESS in this game. It WASN'T useless IRL especially in the early war, regardless of gun packages.

All we(the Royal "we") are trying to do is bring it up to snuff so I can see just one of my P-38s shot down by a numerically superior force of highly experienced Oscar pilots.

Is this so hard to accept?

Well.......maybe.....

Actually what did you have in mind to correct it?

B

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:52:38 AM

jwilkerson

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quote:

The Oscars got slaughtered over New Guinea.

Steve,

Can we have some "data" to go along with that !!!

just a few example ... like

N planes of Type X, engaged M planes of Y Type with P results on date Q ( like the "Elf" report ).

... impressions are interesting ... but we get extra points for data !!!

Nik says he's got some data ... but he hasn't show it to use yet because of his other agenda items !

Elf has 10 points so far for his data ... the rest of us have zero ( no pun intended ) ...

I'll try to pull the data out of that Burma link I included above ... lots of good data in that one ... from 1941-1942 in Burma ... so if you can cover NG then we'll be cooking !!!

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 1:00:02 AM

Alikchi2

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I remember an anecdote in Fire in the Sky about an encounter between three P-38s and a lone Oscar over New Guinea. The P-38s attempted to get a bead on the Oscar for a LONG time (I can't remember exactly how long, but it was nearly half an hour) and failed each time. The Oscar had an excellent pilot who used the aircraft's maneuverability at low speed to evade the P-38s attacks. The Oscar couldn't hurt the P-38s much either, of course, but at least one aircraft went home damaged. The Oscar got away scot-free.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 1:02:28 AM

TheElf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

I remember an anecdote in Fire in the Sky about an encounter between three P-38s and a lone Oscar over New Guinea. The P-38s attempted to get a bead on the Oscar for a LONG time (I can't remember exactly how long, but it was nearly half an hour) and failed each time. The Oscar had an excellent pilot who used the aircraft's maneuverability at low speed to evade the P-38s attacks. The Oscar couldn't hurt the P-38s much either, of course, but at least one aircraft went home damaged. The Oscar got away scot-free.

I'm familiar with this excerpt.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 1:04:30 AM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

The Oscars got slaughtered over New Guinea.

Steve,

Can we have some "data" to go along with that !!!

just a few example ... like

N planes of Type X, engaged M planes of Y Type with P results on date Q ( like the "Elf" report ).

... impressions are interesting ... but we get extra points for data !!!

Nik says he's got some data ... but he hasn't show it to use yet because of his other agenda items !

Elf has 10 points so far for his data ... the rest of us have zero ( no pun intended ) ...

I'll try to pull the data out of that Burma link I included above ... lots of good data in that one ... from 1941-1942 in Burma ... so if you can cover NG then we'll be cooking !!!

Maybe the problem is that the 30 cal mg and 50 cal mg is actually more effective than we give it credit for.

I'm at work and can't check the database - but is the Oscar rated less maneuverable than tyhe Zero ? I think it is, and if so the Oscar probably should equal the Zero anyway...

B

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Post #: 74

RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 1:12:18 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Hi Chez, I'm not advocating the 'Oscar Bonus' but it makes about as much sense to me...

Gotcha. I misunderstand your post.

I understand your point concerning the Zero bonus and there may be some substance to that. However, I look at the Zero bonus as being the "scare" factor it generated. It was the only aircraft to have this effect and if we simply said it should only be reflected by higher experience levels, its effect would carry on as long as that pilot lived.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Chez

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 1:17:17 AM

TheElf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Hi Chez, I'm not advocating the 'Oscar Bonus' but it makes about as much sense to me...

Gotcha. I misunderstand your post.

I understand your point concerning the Zero bonus and there may be some substance to that. However, I look at the Zero bonus as being the "scare" factor it generated. It was the only aircraft to have this effect and if we simply said it should only be reflected by higher experience levels, its effect would carry on as long as that pilot lived.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Chez

Chez,
Again, I think you are forgetting that the Oscar was often mis-identified as the Zero, thus the Zero got the good reputation. Because it was so frequently mis-id'd the oscar in effect was as good as the Zero in it's "Scary" performance. Maybe not so much it's gun package, no one really debates that, but as far as the allies were concerned during the 1st 6 months they were the same airplane. They should be treated to the same bonus.

I think it is a moot point anyway since the bou is a coding isssue. Thus the press for the CHS to adopt Nik's A2A modelling enhancements.

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Post #: 76

RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 2:51:15 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Again, I think you are forgetting that the Oscar was often mis-identified as the Zero, thus the Zero got the good reputation. Because it was so frequently mis-id'd the oscar in effect was as good as the Zero in it's "Scary" performance. Maybe not so much it's gun package, no one really debates that, but as far as the allies were concerned during the 1st 6 months they were the same airplane. They should be treated to the same bonus.

The AVG had only a single encounter with an Oscar (Robert Smith shot one down over Rangoon on 25 December 41) prior to April 1942. The AVGs big battles against the Oscar came in late April 42 so it was the Zero, not the Oscar, that American forces routinely encountered early in the war. No other US forces engaged the Oscar in combat until July 1942 so I would say it was the Zero that inspired the fear.

The Brits did encounter the Oscar over Malaya in December 41 and did intially misidentify it as a Zero. However, Brit intel quickly realized that this was a new type army fighter after examining one that had crashed. But as there were only 40 Oscars in service at the time of Pearl Harbor, its highly debatable that it created much fear beyond those pilots engaging it in their Buffalos, especially as it wasn't retrofitted with butterfly flaps until July 1942.

But, as you say, it is a moot point as it is hard-coded to the Zero and I think in this case, rightfully so.

Chez

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Post #: 77

RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 3:52:16 AM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I just want to get this discussion back on track. No one is saying that the Oscar should be a killer airplane. I don't think it should dominate the air war in NG in late 42'. And if these changes are made I don't think it will. Check out Nik's and Speedy's AAR.

To quote Dyson "I just think things should work properly..."

I won't speak for Nik here, but I THINK he'll concur.

Correct. The goal was to turn the Ki-43 (and the Ki-27 and A5M4) from "target" to "fighter", not create a super-fighter. The trick was making the Oscar behave historically and be fightable without it becoming something other than an Oscar.

It took time, a mountain of tests and 4 mod versions, but I believe I have mostly acheived that goal within the limits of the game engine. In doing so I also figured out a few other mysteries.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 4:23:11 AM

Nikademus

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The AVG encountered Ki-43's five times.

The 1st was over Rangoon. Lt. Smith did indeed claim a "Type 0" shot down and 2 Ki-43's in total were lost that day along with 2 Ki-27's and 3 Ki-21's. 2 P40's and 3 Buffalo's were lost with another 2 badly damaged. The Japanese did not return as the bombers were needed over Malaya. This seemed to confirm Allied claims which were excessive to say the least. They thought they'd downed 42 Japanese planes.

The 64th Sentai would move to Burma for operations on 3/20/42

The 64th's 2nd encounter with the AVG went badly. It was 4/8/42 and the 3rd Chutai had been detailed to raid Loiwing. The defenders had a working radar going and received plenty of warning, eight P40's gaining altitude advantage and diving down on the Oscars and bouncing them hard. The 3rd Chutai's problems were exaserbated by the fact that it contained several newbie pilots wet behind the ear (several experienced veterans had just been shipped back to Japan) At the same time 4 more P40's that had scrambled late also entered the frey along with 3 Hurricanes.

The counterstroke badly upset the Japanese attack and caught them off-guard. 4 Ki-43's went down.

The third encounter was on 4/28/42. Similar situation....64th element was escorting a group of 12th Sentai Ki-21's to attack Loiwing but found the AVG forwarned, in the air and waiting for them in strength. 2 x Ki-43 were lost during the hit and run bounce. The Japanese claimed 1 P40 but because no record on the allied side could be found confirming the loss so its not counted.

The fourth enounter occured on 5/4/42 at Paoshan just across the Burmese-Chinese border. 1 P40 was downed by a Ki-43 and 1 Ki-21 was downed by a P40.

The fifth and last encounter occured on 5/5/42 again at Paoshan. This was a mixed force of Ki-27 and Ki-43 escorting. 3 Ki-27 and 2 Ki-30 were lost in exchange for 2 P40. The 64th claimed one of these.

Oscars also accounted for 3 Hudsons and 7 Hurricanes during the period 3/10 - 5/22 (losing 2 Ki-43 in exchange vs. the Hurricanes)

GF mark I unit is home now.....damage control time. I'm going in (Dive! Dive!)

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 4:50:12 AM

jwilkerson

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quote:

It took time, a mountain of tests and 4 mod versions, but I believe I have mostly acheived that goal within the limits of the game engine. In doing so I also figured out a few other mysteries

Any chance we can get a couple of those "test results" posted here ?

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 5:15:51 AM

Big B

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Nik, as usual - first class effort on your part.

But this opens another question - I was always under the impression that Chang's Chinese Nationalist Gov investigated AVG claims of downed Japanese aircraft, and if varified payed $500 gold to the US pilot - therefore ALL of the AVG claims were pretty well checked out and varified.

Does your research mean that they (the AVG) were getting paid for phantom victories?

B

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 6:23:00 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Does your research mean that they (the AVG) were getting paid for phantom victories?

They were getting paid for victories verified by Chennault and his intel staff. However, there was no reliable means to verify those aircraft shot down over Japanese territory. Those claims were normally accepted if another pilot confirmed the crash.

Chez

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 10:51:27 AM

Sneer

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Oscar is not useless in WITP
in one of my PBEM one of Oscar sqns crosses 100 kills in malaya/burma/india campaign in early March42

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:52:53 PM

Honda

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Just give both Oscars mvr value of 36 to make them equal to zero and increase the accuracy of thier guns. They should probably have 37, but that would outrage some people around here. Even if they had 45 it wouldn't matter with their low speed and puny guns. So, at least, don't rob them of the only thing they have. Speed is of importance in WitP and that's it. AT least this way they won't underperform anymore and people will go back to playing nonPDU games.
Signed,
hopelessly outclassed airplanes fanboy

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 12:58:43 PM

m10bob

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More Oscar info. (Forgive the pop-ups on this 1st one guys.)

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/4826/Oscar.htm
(Please note the range info on the last).

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/ki43.html

Info from allied pilots perspective:

http://yarchive.net/mil/ki-43.html

< Message edited by m10bob -- 11/10/2005 1:12:30 PM >

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 3:26:11 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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I've just started my first Pbem with the Nik's Mod.
For what i've seen so far it really works well.
The oscars needed badly to be tweakened. I still think theere are many things that unbalances the game ( like the corsair), but surely the oscar uselessness was one of these of with this Mod things seem pretty better than before

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 3:56:00 PM

Nikademus

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You are correct Big B'er....but as Chez related, the verificaiton process for claims was sadly lacking, particularily in the China/Burma theater where rampent overclaiming was the norm, so much so there were official memos written about the accuracy of such claims. (i can print the quote from the local air commander stressing that future claims be investigated more thoroughly) The AVG was particularily suseptible to this because of Chenault's stressing of hit and run tactics. If your in an airplane ambushing a Japanese formation and you blitz through it at speed and catch glimpses of aircraft diving and spinning out, some with smoke pouring out of engines (which may only be exhaust from having gunned it) your apt to consider it an aircraft in distress. There were multiple incidents were a dozen+ aircraft were reported destroyed and not a single enemy plane actually went down.

There was also a nasty rumor cirulating of AVG pilots "buying" claims from their RAF counter-parts. As you can no doubt imagine this assertation/rumor has in the recent past generated a stormy set of counter-claims and denials. Myself, I don't see it as out of the realm of possibility. Look at the situation. The AVG was made up of young volunteers seeking adventure and some dough. Your getting "paid" per kill, the temptation would be great to find a way to er.....:game: the system. It's human nature. Did the AVG "buy" claims? Noone can say for certain. What "can" be said for certain was that overclaiming was rampant and continued to be so well after the AVG left the area and disbanded into the 23rd FG. The "Xmas masacre" over Rangoon was a perfect example.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 3:56:41 PM

Nikademus

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No more uber-Corsair.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 7:09:27 PM

jwilkerson

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Well I went and read through the Nik/SPeedy AAR looking at the A2A in general Oscars/Nates specifically and certainly don't see anything out of line - and so far looks like an improvement - would like to see a little more over Burma - and maybe another Uber Battle( there was one "test" USN vs Kwaj in there - but what about some B17s versus some Oscars !). But don't see anything wacky so far. As to getting this stuff into CHS I don't know how difficult that would be - but would suggest Elf maybe try to drive discussion with Andrew about how to proceed.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 8:25:07 PM

m10bob

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Hoof's analysis of firepower differances.

http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/WBFirepower.htm

(Check out the firepower of the Ki 84 "Frank" !!!!)

With his formula, these figures could be applied to every plane in WITP..??

< Message edited by m10bob -- 11/10/2005 8:27:16 PM >

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