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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder

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RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 2:38:19 AM

String

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IIRC he just uses andrew brown's map, not the CHS

Regardless, with PDU on you should have what.. 600+, 800+? Tojos, Tonies and Nicks..

Concentrate 5-600 into Burma and you'll put a stop to his air offensive for a while. The key with keeping airfields open is not just having enough fighters, but also having enough engineers to repair the damage done. I kept open Koepang vs Andys heavy air attacks solely thanks to the 6-700 engineers i had there embedded in my LCU's

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 751

RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 2:57:17 AM

Andrew Brown

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
I have never been in a game at this stage under CHS and with PDU so I dont fully appreciate your position.
...
If you really cannot contest the air against unescorted bomber raids in 42 then something is seriously wrong with the mod (or PDU's !!!).

This mod is not CHS. It is a conversion of a stock scenario for my map. The aircraft data is unchanged.

As for PDU, that is a whole new discussion...

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 752

RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 8:59:56 AM

Gen.Hoepner

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From: italy
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/42

He has now a strong foothold in Burma. I Had to move my fighters to protect Hong Kong and Canton, now reachable from Mytikina for his heaviests.
The KMS operation continue. THE WHOLE japanese transport fleet is moving everywhere. It's probably the biggest rescue operation since the retreat from Kuban!

It's enjoyable in a certain way

. Von Meinstein would be pround of me

.
the 25th Army will form a new perimeter between Rangoon and Mouleim at first. Then, when the other units will be safe at Singapore, it will march all the way towards Hanoi, where will form, with the 1st Army, the final perimeter.
My plans for DEI and PAC are simple. The navy units will form the advanced line of defence. Tarawa, Kwejalain,Rabaul and Truk for PAC, Brunei, Tarakan, Kendari and Ambonia for DEI-SRA. Only SNLF and naval garrison units. The army will dig in in the back ( Luzon, Mindanao and Mariannas). It will take some time to get back in order...but it's doable.

In the mean while the iron rain keep on falling upon the retreating units in Burma, while my fighters training program is giving good results.

He's sub mining the solomons...lost a ML today

...however when he'll decide to land here he'll find nothing but THOUSANDS of mines everywhere.

Tomorrow will start the difficult operations for the evacuation of some important units at PM. Will move back a CD unit, 1 AA rgt and one Air HQ.

Do not know what to do in China...Probably i'll go only for Ichang...let's see. However it's not a proprity anymore.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 257 encounters mine field at Tulagi (67,100)

Japanese Ships
ML Ma 2, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 753

RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 9:07:39 AM

Gen.Hoepner

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Guys...Yes i have Tonies and Tojos. But in how many places can i put 800 of them? Just one, obviously. And the rest? If i defend Bankok, he'll bomb Hanoi or my bases in China where hundreds of Bombers are parked...and who will defend PM,Daily Waters and the Solomons? He has avoid any air attrition till now, just to have these incredible pools and be ready to smash me everywhere. We've already seen what he can do. 400 Liberators, higly skilled, cannot be stopped by just 100 Tonies...you need at least 300...and if he has in reserve more 200 4Es for the next day you're gonna see your base closed and your air groups slaughtered on the ground....exactly like at Daily Waters last week. No thanks.
I want to force him to risk something. And i want to gain time for space in order to estabilish a FORTRESS.
My perimeter is too big to be defended at the moment. I simply do not have the means to face him in 3 different points of my perimeter. I have to make it smaller and so it will be more easy to mass my forces and counterattack.

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Post #: 754

RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 9:28:01 AM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Guys...Yes i have Tonies and Tojos. But in how many places can i put 800 of them? Just one, obviously. And the rest? If i defend Bankok, he'll bomb Hanoi or my bases in China where hundreds of Bombers are parked...and who will defend PM,Daily Waters and the Solomons? He has avoid any air attrition till now, just to have these incredible pools and be ready to smash me everywhere. We've already seen what he can do. 400 Liberators, higly skilled, cannot be stopped by just 100 Tonies...you need at least 300...and if he has in reserve more 200 4Es for the next day you're gonna see your base closed and your air groups slaughtered on the ground....exactly like at Daily Waters last week. No thanks.
I want to force him to risk something. And i want to gain time for space in order to estabilish a FORTRESS.
My perimeter is too big to be defended at the moment. I simply do not have the means to face him in 3 different points of my perimeter. I have to make it smaller and so it will be more easy to mass my forces and counterattack.

Well, look at this this way, right now you aren't putting them anywhere either and you are giving up territory you cannot afford to give up. Burma serves one purpose and one purpose alone tbh. Okay two, one is to be a bufferzone vs allied heavies so they don't level indochina and malaya, and the second is to cut the burma road.

Retreat in the pacific all you want, but SRA should be holy until 44. But then again thats my opinion.

When you put 300 tonies on cap (this would require 400+ present in a base) AND a lot of engineers on the ground then the allies will have a tough time shutting your base down provided it's out of escort range.

edit: Anyway, you've let him into Burma now, so getting him out is out of the question now I guess.

< Message edited by String -- 11/11/2005 9:35:07 AM >

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Post #: 755

RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 1:34:01 PM

Tom Hunter

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I would also be looking for a chance to hit the heavies with shore bombardment in an island base. This would be tricky but possible.

On a different note it seems that PDU is really bad. Games with no Allied twin engine bombers are a farce, but then again so is tripling historical production of Zeros.

I just saw artwork for a P-80; being added to fight the Shinden, no doubt. Why not at F-15s too? Or let the Americans and Japanese build Me262s after all they both could have, at least theoretically. And where is the artwork for Superman and Captain America? I want them on my side too...

(in reply to String)

Post #: 756

RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 1:43:46 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Guys...Yes i have Tonies and Tojos. But in how many places can i put 800 of them? Just one, obviously. And the rest? If i defend Bankok, he'll bomb Hanoi or my bases in China where hundreds of Bombers are parked...and who will defend PM,Daily Waters and the Solomons? He has avoid any air attrition till now, just to have these incredible pools and be ready to smash me everywhere. We've already seen what he can do. 400 Liberators, higly skilled, cannot be stopped by just 100 Tonies...you need at least 300...and if he has in reserve more 200 4Es for the next day you're gonna see your base closed and your air groups slaughtered on the ground....exactly like at Daily Waters last week. No thanks.
I want to force him to risk something. And i want to gain time for space in order to estabilish a FORTRESS.
My perimeter is too big to be defended at the moment. I simply do not have the means to face him in 3 different points of my perimeter. I have to make it smaller and so it will be more easy to mass my forces and counterattack.

Well, look at this this way, right now you aren't putting them anywhere either and you are giving up territory you cannot afford to give up. Burma serves one purpose and one purpose alone tbh. Okay two, one is to be a bufferzone vs allied heavies so they don't level indochina and malaya, and the second is to cut the burma road.

Retreat in the pacific all you want, but SRA should be holy until 44. But then again thats my opinion.

When you put 300 tonies on cap (this would require 400+ present in a base) AND a lot of engineers on the ground then the allies will have a tough time shutting your base down provided it's out of escort range.

edit: Anyway, you've let him into Burma now, so getting him out is out of the question now I guess.

I understand your point String and i completely agree with you on the Burma's role ( keep open the gate for SRA), but they would have entered in Burma anyway. My units are at their 50-60% strenght aftern months of daily bombings by hundreds of allied monsters and how could i stop 18+ units coming down from Imphal below this umbrella? Burma was lost when i abbandoned the plan for a mini-hangover in April. If i could march my chinese divisions to Burma that would be another story...also here i do not understand why i cannot do that while he can let his destroyed chinese units spring up again at Karachi and come back to Burma...

As i see it now the it's like we were in late 44 and not late 42. The situation is very similar in Burma. Japan sent to the meatgrinder every ship-plane-man it could effort, while i care for my assets, so i'll try to play an elastic defence ( remember what Hoepner told to Hitler when he has been removed?

)

Another year...that's what i ask.

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Post #: 757

RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 1:47:16 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I would also be looking for a chance to hit the heavies with shore bombardment in an island base. This would be tricky but possible.

On a different note it seems that PDU is really bad. Games with no Allied twin engine bombers are a farce, but then again so is tripling historical production of Zeros.

I just saw artwork for a P-80; being added to fight the Shinden, no doubt. Why not at F-15s too? Or let the Americans and Japanese build Me262s after all they both could have, at least theoretically. And where is the artwork for Superman and Captain America? I want them on my side too...

Hi Tom,

shore bombarments? i would need some recon and he's keeping his 4Es at at least 10 hexes of distances to any of my forward bases...i'll be spotted and torn in pieces by his CVs and by his land based bombers.
I do not have a problem if you force me to have only 100 zeros per month. Japan's problem isn't the pool! Is pilots number! While for the allies is the opposite.

However here' s the map of operation KMS

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 758

RE: The Chinese MeatGrinder - 11/11/2005 1:56:14 PM

Andy Mac

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OK this is a game under the pre allied Heavy Bomber nerf so its unsurprising you are seeing hordes of heavies B17's got heavily reduced as did LB 24's (and only one gp get them I think even under PDU)

So it doesnt help you much GH but in stock scenario games in future the allies will need to use 2 engined's again (I suspect PDU's with ahistorical fort and LB24 production is hurting you in this game.) from memory they reduced B17 production by 2/3's to about 16 a month.

I would also talk to MC about Chinese Units if his entire China army has just reespawned in Karachi without his having to pay PP points for it I would suggest that those units still atttached to China Command should either

1. Stay in Karachi until PP points are paid to transfer them to SEAC.

or

2. only be allowed to move to a specifried air transit base for transfer to China.

If he disagrees I would suggest some of the restrictions on Japanese Army in China need to be relaxed.

Andy

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Post #: 759

Losing the war - 11/11/2005 3:01:09 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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Sorry Andy..i cannto reply to you right now...later...

Just to give this news: a quite big transport TF is approaching Nukufetau ( see map ). I'll try the gamble. All my CVs will move at fast speed from Tarawa to intercept it. No DD as escorts as they are low with fuel. Very risky 'cause i'll be in the range of his heaviests from Fiji...but at this stage i take the gamble. 4 CVTFs, leaded by Abe,Yamaguchi, Nagumo and ...do not remember:-). Max speed. Nells at Tarawa ready to strike. Bombardment TF leaded by Takeda refueled today and will start to move tomorrow from Tarawa. Let's see if i can sink some APs full of troops

...no sign of enemy carriers.

Who knows...maybe i get lucky once in a while

gotta go now.

Stay tuned

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Post #: 760

RE: Losing the war - 11/11/2005 3:21:45 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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Hi Andy, well i'm sure the problem is related with PDU and 4E production. Simply too many 4Es around.
For the chinese units...well..it's too late and also...i know MC

. He would argue that India will be invaded and conquered and that's not hystorical...and so on

But now these things are just belonging to the past. We've already evacuated Burma. The war has changed and i have to be ready for what it comes.

Thanks for your support. Really appreciated

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Post #: 761

HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 3:50:14 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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I have no words. Nor fears. Nor anger.
I'm just so stupid.

I've set the zeros on Naval attack CAP 0%.....my carriers have been slaughtered. He had all his CVs.....

what can i say?.....

months of hard work just to be so stupid and make a turn so important in 5 minutes because a girl was waiting my call....and did not check all the details.... i deserve to lose

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Post #: 762

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 6:52:55 PM

hawker

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Ask Mc to replay.It is clearly that is mistake not operational purpose.

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RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 6:55:56 PM

Speedysteve

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From: Reading, England
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Hi guys,

My thoughts on it are this:

Firstly, i'm not being harsh its just my opinion. A redo should not be an option. If a game glitch/bug occurs then a redo should be performed since a player has no control on the action but in this case Gen unfortunately set the planes on the wrong orders. This is a user error rather than a game error. It's war and mistakes happen and lead to defeats.

Just my 2P.

Regards,

Steven

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Post #: 764

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 7:04:01 PM

hawker

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I disagree with you Speedy.
GH has not any operation purpose to set zeros on naval attack.That is "type mistake".That is big diference,he has no mean to put fighters on naval attack.Simple.

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Post #: 765

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 7:06:39 PM

Speedysteve

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We'll have to agree to disagree then Hawker.

Regards,

Steven

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Post #: 766

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 7:34:43 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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Hi guys,

i'm not going to ask for a redo. Not at this stage of war. I know MC is really thirsty ( sp??) of victories and if we redo the game it will end in a disaster for him. Consider that instead of 50 Zeros i should have 200 on CAP ( 3 daitais were on 0%CAP, and only 3 at 60%...but all set on naval attack

) and some more 200 Vals on naval attack(were left on training for no reason).
So it's ok. I take it

Vals left on training, zeros on naval attack, Float planes left on training-_-''...everything screwed up. Ok, i got only myself to blame for this tragedy.
Too bad i made this nonsense mistake after months of, IMHO, good playing.
It's like when you go out for a dinner with a girl. You do everything perfectly for the whole evening. You're cute when needed, sarcastic and ironic just the little that the girls like,
...everything perfect...and when it's time to drive her back home ( and remember it's your first meeting!), when you get into the car,
you have a tremendous attack of diahrrea...those you cannot keep your back tight^_^.... and the night ends in a mad race to get home asap....
More or less the same i feel now.

However, the war now is lost. And the fun too for me. Without the deterrent of the KB i do not know what remains me to do...just sit and wait for the inevitable.
Anyway i won't drop. I understand the fun for MC comes now, so i won't stop playing. Please do not tell him i'm so depressed. I'd like to mantain an appereance of "high morale" with him, so that he doesn't feel
to be shooting on the red cross:-))

So guys...the war will go on, but i strongly suggest you to shift on MC's AAR to see some fun...this AAR will be very very depressing from now on:-/

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RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 7:55:33 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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However...just a small note. I've just read his mail, where he doesn't say anything except for "i can imagine your anger".... To say the truth we've already encountered a similar situation, in our last match. He forgot to set Retirement allowed to a Fast transport TF with several CAs that got mauled by CVs. He asked for a replay and we've agreed that if these situations ( clear mistake in giving orders ) could repeat in the future we will have allowed a redo without any problem. So i'm not going to ask for it, cause i think it's really his decision if to offer it to me or not. He's not offering me, so i take it and bring home the present.
No problem. War goes on.

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Post #: 768

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 10:40:01 PM

Tom Hunter

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I think you have to suck it up. Much of the reason we all win or lose this game has to do with forgetting and remembering to set things up one way or another.

I wait for Mogami to screw up, he waits for me to screw up (and I just did last turn) and we all capitalize on the mistake. It is terrible to screw up with your CVs when playing Japan but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

Good luck with the rest of the war, I am afraid your going to need it.

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Post #: 769

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 11:16:13 PM

Andy Mac

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I hate to say it but this is such a huge mistake its just too much to redo.

If you re do he loses all carriers if you dont you have a couple damaged perhaps one or two sunk.

Just how bad was it GH ?

Personally im not a fan of redos for mistakes unless its a bug or a genuine misunderstaning

Andy

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RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/11/2005 11:48:40 PM

pauk

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greetings, GH

i feel your pain and understand your position totally. But, i have made such mistakes in the past and pay it dearly. After one bad PBEM (yeah it was my first PBEM - i have to surrender in July 1942 - as Japan) i've decided:

no turns when i'm busy!... it is to easy to make such mistake and it is a really painful because you know your opponent did not outperform you - it was your own stupidity.

these things hurts. Badly hurts. But this is the only way to avoid this in the future.

here is copy&paste in MC AAR (don't follow this section but heading attracted me):

Well it is not so simple... but the bottom line is what several people said here

"Midway - Nagumo clicked the wrong button - and he got no redo !"

Sorry for interupting this Allied thread, but this Jap fanboy is on your side - this time....

Of course, your victory wont be sweet because you didn't outplay him, it was his mistake after all but WiTP is like chess - winner will be the person who make fewer mistakes!

We are still with you - BANZAI!

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RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 12:06:14 AM

Przemcio231

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Hey you can still kick those Allies

im with you.... any way we will beet those nasty US Navy CV's in ouer multiplayer Game.

NIPPON BANZAI

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Post #: 772

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 2:11:55 AM

Gen.Hoepner

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Guys, i think you all misunderstood me. I won't play any redo even if he asked me! I know, as i've said twice, that i got only myself to blame for my mistake. It's just that it would have been very kind of him if he asked me...i would have said no, but considering what has happened in the past under the same circumstances, a " Sure you don't wanna replay it?" would have been greatly appreciated.
However, i repeat: it's my fault and i do not ask for a replay. It's ok and i'm not a virgin of this game so i know what gamble i play when i make movements with my CVs.

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RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 2:49:35 AM

Gen.Hoepner

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BTW, this is Gen.Hoepner's face when saw the his zeros going with bombs to attack allied CVs....

just a stupid thing but in this moment i need to get some fun to play around my idiocy and my actual anger

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RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 2:59:38 AM

PzB74

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Hey, it was you that stole Munch's 'Scream'!

Thief

Very sorry to hear about your most unfortunate demise General, you have my sympathy. Hope I never experience
something similar, would have hung myself until it really hurt.

The game will take on a new dimension for you know, really challenging! Go ahead and finish those carriers you've accelerated
and rebuild the KB! By the time your opponent reaches the main perimeter defense you should be ready for him.

Good luck!

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RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 3:19:45 AM

Nomad

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I suppose it wont help much GH. but I have done the same thing before. Sent 4 US CVs into battle with EVERY DAMN AIRCRAFT ON STAND DOWN I didn't even think about a redo, just
kept at it.

So for you Gen.

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Post #: 776

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 2:25:36 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/13/42

Ok, plans go on as scheldued.
We're forming a line with the 25th Army at Rangoon. We'll try to hold this line as long as possible, gaining time for KMS operation going on in the back. He doesn't seem to have understood what's going on...very good!
Every single japanese transport is moving. It will be far from easy the task to reorganize everything. In Oz the i'm massing a LOT of transports at Darwin. The hard thing will be to leave the continent at the last moment and all at the same time.....a very tough job! 'cause if he understands it he will follow my retreat from Daily and base immediately his 4Es at Daily...giving Havoc to the hundreds of APs loading at Darwin.

Anyway the new disposition will be more or less the following:

the 18th Army will take care of Palau. The 17th of Mariannas. At Luzon there will be the 2nd and the 15th Armies. The 16th at Mindanao and the 25th at Hanoi( but as soon as i grab Ichang i'll move the chinese armies to Hanoi and the 25th will be sent to Formosa.

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Post #: 777

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 4:26:36 PM

Gen.Hoepner

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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/13/42

Seems that he's trying to get to my damaged CVs with his subs. ( 2 hits today using Jakes and Nells). My babies, however, won't get to Tarawa. Ryujo will sink tomorrow and the Kaga is moving at 2 knots

, with sys at 90 and flt at 56....no way to get home

In the meanwhile he stopped bombing Burma...this gets me scared cause can mean he has understood what i'm doing...
Gotta rush...The evacuation of Malaya is going just fine, while is far more difficult to do it in the Solomons...where i have supplies,fuel and troopsalmost everywhere-_-''
Nothing else of any interest to post.

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 778

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 7:34:44 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/15/42

Nothing new. Will be boring turns guys. My damaged CVs are struggling at 2 knots...still afloat but i do not bet a dime on them!

He stopped bombing Daily and he stopped bombing Burma. Quite sure he'll start to bomb NG and from Cooktown and he's now waiting for Mytikina to grow at level 5 to place there his bombers. Then, Hanoi will be in a mortal danger. Will try to do my best to defend the resources centers there!
MLEs sent to Saipan,Palau,Davao and Manila, my next main 4 bases for the inner perimeter. Will soon start a mining campaign in PI and Mariannas. Solomons, NG and Marshalls are already full of mines ( another allied sub hit by a 93type mine today at Tulagi

)

I really think i'm doing a good job...he's not understanding my overall strategy

.

Soon we'll start the Ichang campaign in central China. I need to have free hands for The defence of Hanoi and Southern China when the british will be in Malaya ( probably by febbruary 43).

You know...now that i've metabolized ( ???) the idea that i will have to defend a smaller perimeter, i'm getting quite happy. It will be fun, real fun

. I'm quite curious to see how the Americans will handle a Luzon landing campaign in mid 43...with something like 1,000,000 of men, fully supplied and some 1300 planes, highly skilled, waiting for them...with the Combined Fleet....intact...well...almost

Unfortunately i know him. He won't do anything before his 4Es have destroyed everything could fly-_-''

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[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 779

RE: HOW TO LOSE A WAR - 11/12/2005 8:13:02 PM

String

Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline

Ouch! I return from out of town and KB has been slaughtered

crap.

Well, hopefully he'll try to invade some of your fort 9 attolls with 3 div garrisons in Marianas

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 780

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